Ok Kolb bashers

[Dr. Jones]

This thread has over 250 posts....

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Criticism is fine, considering his mishaps.

Perseverating over and augmenting his transgressions to make it look like he has zero concept of the position is unwarranted, IMO.

Just glad he had a game where he had to step up when the defense wasn't playing to its potential, even if he caused some of the problems.

+1

 

[Russ Smith]

I thought Williams was hurt, too. As Whis would say, I'm guessing that it was just WiPo's "turn to work."



We did the same thing with Bradley this season. I think we reduced his base salary from $5 million to $1 million. Maybe he accepts that pay cut again next offseason, maybe he decides that he wants a "make-good" chance with the Giants or something and takes off. I can't hammer on Bradley (or Heap for the same reason) as much these days because he took a massive pay cut and is merely overpaid instead of obscenely overpaid.

ah I forgot he already took a paycut.

 

[CardLogic]

This thread has over 250 posts....

Yeah, I just stopped in to ask, "Have you guys resolved anything yet?

 

[Russ Smith]

You have to look beyond the stat sheet for that game and actually read through the play-by-play. Just whole quarters of three-and-outs, being completely non-productive except for one play. He didn't look like a legitimate NFL quarterback.

I think this time last year we were either getting pasted by the Vikings or losing to Washington close. I don't remember which. He looked like the guy in Washington last week, IMO.

Yeah I only watched it once and I don't think I saw the whole game. i saw the whole 2nd half so my perception is probably skewed.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Have it your way! The Miami offense and their rookie quarterback had a fantastic day despite the awesome Cardinal defense.

Scott Bordow of the Arizona Republic says the Cardinals' defensive players knew they got away with a ragged performance.

“This game here we didn’t play our best. We know that,” safety Kerry Rhodes said.

All around the Cardinals locker room, Rhodes’ teammates were nodding in agreement. This wasn’t the same defense that held New England to 18 points and tormented Michael Vick. Miami had 480 total yards and averaged 6.5 yards per play. Tannehill did a dead-on impersonation of Dan Marino against a blitzing defense that had even Tom Brady thinking twice.

What happened, as Campbell might say?

For one thing, Arizona didn’t play with the same fanatical fervor it did the first three weeks. Part of that was due to the absence of defensive end Darnell Dockett (hamstring), who often sets the tone with his play up front. It’s clear, too, that the Cardinals weren’t as amped up to play Miami as they had been Seattle, New England and Philadelphia.
It was a trap game, and the defense nearly got caught.

“It was not up to our standards. We want to be a lot better than that,” Lenon said.

http://www.azcentral.com/sports/car...ls-defense-not-up-to-standards.html#protected

My way? I didn't use my awesome jedi powers to cause Tannehill to fumble on his sack, or throw an INT in OT.

The fumble allows Kolb redemption for his great drive at the end of the game, and the INT in overtime gives our team the short field to win it in OT.

And of course there is no credit to give to Miami's offensive line, or no reason to talk about how banged up the defense is.

If that is bad defense, I will take that with the win every week.

Kerry Rhodes is a good one to talk about playing bad though, it was his error that allow Miami to get back in the game.

The game is what it is, but Rhodes does his job, and Wilson/Toler can catch and we are singing a different tune.

If that is as bad as the defense plays this year, we will win the Superbowl.

 

[kerouac9]

Yeah I only watched it once and I don't think I saw the whole game. i saw the whole 2nd half so my perception is probably skewed.

Yeah... it's worth spending a little bit of time looking back over the play sheet from that game and really look at how awful Kolb was for four quarters. Here is the offensive "production" from every drive in the game before overtime (http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/20111...enu=highlights&tab=analyze&analyze=playbyplay)

1-10-ARI 11 (11:53) 26-C.Wells left tackle to ARI 16 for 5 yards (93-A.Spencer).
2-5-ARI 16 (11:12) (Shotgun) 4-K.Kolb pass short right to 12-A.Roberts to ARI 20 for 4 yards (94-D.Ware).
3-1-ARI 20 (10:35) 26-C.Wells up the middle to ARI 19 for -1 yards (90-J.Ratliff).
4-2-ARI 19 (10:03) 9-D.Zastudil punts 49 yards to DAL 32, Center-82-M.Leach, fair catch by 88-D.Bryant. PENALTY on ARI-27-M.Adams, Fair Catch Interference, 12 yards, enforced at DAL 32.

1-10-ARI 43 (7:16) 4-K.Kolb pass short right to 12-A.Roberts to DAL 42 for 15 yards (41-T.Newman).
1-10-DAL 42 (6:39) 36-L.Stephens-Howling up the middle to DAL 27 for 15 yards (43-G.Sensabaugh).
1-10-DAL 27 (5:59) 4-K.Kolb sacked at DAL 28 for -1 yards (90-J.Ratliff).
2-11-DAL 28 (5:29) 26-C.Wells up the middle to DAL 25 for 3 yards (50-S.Lee).
3-8-DAL 25 (4:47) (Shotgun) PENALTY on ARI-11-L.Fitzgerald, False Start, 5 yards, enforced at DAL 25 - No Play.
3-13-DAL 30 (4:23) (Shotgun) 4-K.Kolb pass incomplete deep middle to 84-R.Housler.
4-13-DAL 30 (4:18) 3-J.Feely 48 yard field goal is GOOD, Center-82-M.Leach, Holder-9-D.Zastudil.

1-10-ARI 10 (1:53) 4-K.Kolb pass short middle to 26-C.Wells to ARI 16 for 6 yards (51-K.Brooking).
2-4-ARI 16 (1:13) 26-C.Wells up the middle to ARI 18 for 2 yards (51-K.Brooking).
3-2-ARI 18 28) (Shotgun) 4-K.Kolb pass short right to 84-R.Housler to ARI 28 for 10 yards (41-T.Newman; 26-A.Elam).
END QUARTER 1
1-10-ARI 28 (15:00) (Shotgun) 4-K.Kolb sacked at ARI 22 for -6 yards (95-S.Lissemore).
2-16-ARI 22 (14:27) 26-C.Wells up the middle to ARI 25 for 3 yards (51-K.Brooking).
3-13-ARI 25 (13:48) (Shotgun) 4-K.Kolb sacked at ARI 21 for -4 yards (97-J.Hatcher).
4-17-ARI 21 (13:27) 9-D.Zastudil punts 51 yards to DAL 28, Center-82-M.Leach, out of bounds.

(10:43) 26-C.Wells left tackle to ARI 3 for no gain (50-S.Lee).
2-10-ARI 3 (10:06) 4-K.Kolb pass incomplete deep left to 11-L.Fitzgerald.
3-10-ARI 3 (9:59) (Shotgun) 4-K.Kolb pass incomplete deep right to 85-E.Doucet.
4-10-ARI 3 (9:54) 9-D.Zastudil punts 51 yards to DAL 46, Center-82-M.Leach. 88-D.Bryant to 50 for 4 yards (27-M.Adams). FUMBLES (27-M.Adams), recovered by DAL-20-A.Ball at DAL 48. 20-A.Ball to DAL 48 for no gain (23-H.Abdullah). PENALTY on DAL-32-O.Scandrick, Illegal Block Above the Waist, 10 yards, enforced at DAL 48.

1-10-ARI 13 (5:44) 26-C.Wells right end to ARI 12 for -1 yards (93-A.Spencer).
2-11-ARI 12 (5:02) 4-K.Kolb sacked at ARI 2 for -10 yards (94-D.Ware).
3-21-ARI 2 (4:24) 4-K.Kolb pass incomplete short right to 85-E.Doucet (32-O.Scandrick).
4-21-ARI 2 (4:18) 9-D.Zastudil punts 45 yards to ARI 47, Center-82-M.Leach. 88-D.Bryant to ARI 33 for 14 yards (37-S.Considine).

1-10-ARI 20 (3:09) (Shotgun) 4-K.Kolb pass short right to 11-L.Fitzgerald to ARI 29 for 9 yards (32-O.Scandrick).
2-1-ARI 29 (2:44) 4-K.Kolb pass short left to 85-E.Doucet to ARI 27 for -2 yards (25-F.Walker).
Timeout #2 by DAL at 02:41.
3-3-ARI 27 (2:41) (Shotgun) 4-K.Kolb pass short left to 85-E.Doucet to ARI 29 for 2 yards (40-D.McCray).
Two-Minute Warning
4-1-ARI 29 (2:00) 9-D.Zastudil punts 50 yards to DAL 21, Center-82-M.Leach, fair catch by 88-D.Bryant.

1 -10-ARI 21 (14:54) 4-K.Kolb pass short right to 11-L.Fitzgerald to ARI 35 for 14 yards (41-T.Newman).
1-10-ARI 35 (14:23) 26-C.Wells up the middle to ARI 39 for 4 yards (99-K.Coleman).
2-6-ARI 39 (13:49) (Shotgun) 26-C.Wells left tackle to ARI 48 for 9 yards (51-K.Brooking).
1-10-ARI 48 (13:14) 4-K.Kolb pass deep left to 11-L.Fitzgerald to DAL 34 for 18 yards (43-G.Sensabaugh).
1-10-DAL 34 (12:37) 26-C.Wells up the middle to DAL 27 for 7 yards (26-A.Elam; 50-S.Lee).
2-3-DAL 27 (12:00) (Shotgun) 36-L.Stephens-Howling left tackle to DAL 26 for 1 yard (95-S.Lissemore).
3-2-DAL 26 (11:21) 26-C.Wells up the middle to DAL 22 for 4 yards (50-S.Lee).
1-10-DAL 22 (10:38) (Shotgun) 4-K.Kolb scrambles right end to DAL 5 for 17 yards (32-O.Scandrick).
1-5-DAL 5 (9:56) 26-C.Wells up the middle to DAL 4 for 1 yard (99-K.Coleman).
2-4-DAL 4 (9:16) 4-K.Kolb pass incomplete short middle to 85-E.Doucet (50-S.Lee).
3-4-DAL 4 (9:11) (Shotgun) 4-K.Kolb up the middle to DAL 1 for 3 yards (50-S.Lee; 90-J.Ratliff).
4-1-DAL 1 (8:29) (Run formation) PENALTY on ARI-72-B.Keith, False Start, 4 yards, enforced at DAL 1 - No Play.
4-5-DAL 5 (8:21) 3-J.Feely 23 yard field goal is GOOD, Center-82-M.Leach, Holder-9-D.Zastudil.

1-10-ARI 21 28) 26-C.Wells up the middle to ARI 27 for 6 yards (97-J.Hatcher).
END QUARTER 3
2-4-ARI 27 (15:00) 4-K.Kolb pass deep left to 12-A.Roberts pushed ob at DAL 33 for 40 yards (41-T.Newman).
1-10-DAL 33 (14:28) (Shotgun) 26-C.Wells up the middle to DAL 26 for 7 yards (94-D.Ware).
2-3-DAL 26 (13:52) 4-K.Kolb pass incomplete deep right to 11-L.Fitzgerald.
3-3-DAL 26 (13:45) (Shotgun) 4-K.Kolb pass short left to 12-A.Roberts pushed ob at DAL 4 for 22 yards (26-A.Elam).
1-4-DAL 4 (13:15) 26-C.Wells up the middle for 4 yards, TOUCHDOWN. The Replay Assistant challenged the runner broke the plane ruling, and the play was Upheld.

(9:51) 26-C.Wells left end to ARI 25 for 5 yards (21-M.Jenkins).
2-5-ARI 25 (9:24) 4-K.Kolb pass incomplete short right to 11-L.Fitzgerald [32-O.Scandrick].
3-5-ARI 25 (9:19) (Shotgun) 4-K.Kolb pass short middle to 11-L.Fitzgerald to ARI 39 for 14 yards (41-T.Newman; 43-G.Sensabaugh). Penalty on DAL-25-F.Walker, Defensive Holding, declined.
1-10-ARI 39 (8:58) 26-C.Wells up the middle to ARI 40 for 1 yard (99-K.Coleman).
2-9-ARI 40 (8:21) 4-K.Kolb sacked at ARI 38 for -2 yards (93-A.Spencer).
3-11-ARI 38 (7:43) (Shotgun) PENALTY on ARI-71-D.Colledge, False Start, 5 yards, enforced at ARI 38 - No Play.
3-16-ARI 33 (7:19) (Shotgun) 4-K.Kolb pass short middle to 84-R.Housler to ARI 46 for 13 yards (26-A.Elam).
4-3-ARI 46 (6:35) 9-D.Zastudil punts 54 yards to end zone, Center-82-M.Leach, Touchback.

1-10-ARI 5 (3:59) 4-K.Kolb pass incomplete short right to 36-L.Stephens-Howling.
2-10-ARI 5 (3:56) 26-C.Wells up the middle to ARI 9 for 4 yards (50-S.Lee).
3-6-ARI 9 (3:16) (Shotgun) 4-K.Kolb pass incomplete short left to 85-E.Doucet.
4-6-ARI 9 (3:09) 9-D.Zastudil punts 51 yards to DAL 40, Center-82-M.Leach. 88-D.Bryant to ARI 25 for 35 yards (36-L.Stephens-Howling). PENALTY on DAL-32-O.Scandrick, Illegal Block Above the Waist, 10 yards, enforced at DAL 42.

Two scoring drives, and in them Kolb made maybe three passes. I just can't look at Kolb and say to myself, "If we put the ball in this guy's hands 40 times or more, we're probably going to win." Not against an average opponent.

We can quibble about whether that's true with Skelton, either, but the point is that you don't have a franchise quarterback if you feel like you have to make sure that he's not the deciding factor in the outcome of your game.

 

[Mulli]

You have to look beyond the stat sheet for that game and actually read through the play-by-play. Just whole quarters of three-and-outs, being completely non-productive except for one play. He didn't look like a legitimate NFL quarterback.

I think this time last year we were either getting pasted by the Vikings or losing to Washington close. I don't remember which. He looked like the guy in Washington last week, IMO.

Cards had Washington right where they wanted them until Stuckey fumbled.

 

[desertdawg]

It doesn't matter much what Kolb did last year or the year before, or when he was in college or H.S. It's about as interesting as what he bought at the grocery store last week. QBs take time to learn systems, you can bring up a handful of QBs that pimped it right out of the gate but most good ones (Peyton, Eli, Brady,Rodgers) sucked balls when they got to their new team. You can say "Kolb's been in the league for years", but it still doesn't jive. Playtime experience is what a QB needs to get better.

And Kolb is going to get all the playingtime he can physically handle...literally!

 

[daves]

I think I read it has been since 1925 that we won the first 4 games of the year.

The Cardinals started out 7-0 in 1974.

...dave

 

[RugbyMuffin]

It doesn't matter much what Kolb did last year or the year before, or when he was in college or H.S. It's about as interesting as what he bought at the grocery store last week. QBs take time to learn systems, you can bring up a handful of QBs that pimped it right out of the gate but most good ones (Peyton, Eli, Brady,Rodgers) sucked balls when they got to their new team. You can say "Kolb's been in the league for years", but it still doesn't jive. Playtime experience is what a QB needs to get better.

And Kolb is going to get all the playingtime he can physically handle...literally!

And he should.

I think too many are just WAY WAY WAY too defensive of Kolb right now. But it is fair enough. It is fun to get excited about a player, especially a QB. Hell, I am excited about the position.

I am all for Kolb starting, I am all for Kolb and his play right now, but I am still going to talk about what negative things he does, and just because I say something negative doesn't mean I hate the guy, and want John Skelton to start in his place.

So, ya'll need to calm it down a little bit.

......that being said those who truly think Kolb is HORRIBLE got to get a grip. All this team needs is a solid/average QB that doesn't make mistakes. Kolb is doing a good job of that, and most importantly winning.

The rest is just people trying to be right, or being difficult for difficult sake.

The bug up my butt in this thread is how two-faced this place is about the QB position. But it is what it is, and who gives a damn when we are winning and 4-0.

 

[crisper57]

And he should.

I think too many are just WAY WAY WAY too defensive of Kolb right now. But it is fair enough. It is fun to get excited about a player, especially a QB. Hell, I am excited about the position.

I am all for Kolb starting, I am all for Kolb and his play right now, but I am still going to talk about what negative things he does, and just because I say something negative doesn't mean I hate the guy, and want John Skelton to start in his place.

So, ya'll need to calm it down a little bit.

......that being said those who truly think Kolb is HORRIBLE got to get a grip. All this team needs is a solid/average QB that doesn't make mistakes. Kolb is doing a good job of that, and most importantly winning.

The rest is just people trying to be right, or being difficult for difficult sake.

The bug up my butt in this thread is how two-faced this place is about the QB position. But it is what it is, and who gives a damn when we are winning and 4-0.

I was a Skelton guy in the preseason. I admit it. Now that Kolb has shown that:

a) He can take a hit (or eight)
b) He can play clutch

I am ready to ride or die with him.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

I was a Skelton guy in the preseason. I admit it. Now that Kolb has shown that:

a) He can take a hit (or eight)
b) He can play clutch

I am ready to ride or die with him.

Agreed.

For clutch situations ? He is 2 for 3 at this point, and 4-0 so I am getting there.

The biggest improvements about Kolb, IMO are:

1. Pocket presence
2. Composure <--- seems a lot more relaxed.

His problems are mostly mental, IMO. He gets into a groove he could take off. We will see.

 

[Stout]

Gee, I was complimentary to Kolb, made a clear joke with the specifically catered joking smilie...but I didn't say Kolb walks on water, so I'm a big meanie

Sounds like Blok stunk it up at times, but brought us back for a hellacious victory. And I thank him for that! He's been nails so far this season--nowhere near perfect, but getting the wins and not caring about his form in doing so. He's this season's Skelton Good on him for coming right, and I hope he keeps doing so. No reason to start up the thread for 'rubbing it in' mode, but I won't let it get to me. We're 4-0, and a few games we should win before us. Good times.

Yeah, that's soooo harsh, how I made that joke about Kolb and Skelton.

I didn't take anything out of context. I quoted what you wrote and responded to it. You don't like it? Tough. Funny how when you don't like a response you say you were joking. Yet no hint of it being a joke in your first post.

So, deliberately ignoring how it was presented isn't taking things out of context? What are you, in 3rd grade? I didn't just claim I was joking--I used the joking smilie in the first place. You just deliberately wanted to be an ass. And sure, you're certainly entitled to be a jerkhole. Carry on.

while QB rating isnt everything

after 3.25 games, Kolb has a 97.6 passer rating with 7 tds to 2 ints

if he finishes the season with that rating and a td / int ratio of 3.5 to 1 --

i dont think the contract is touched and no way does the team take a qb round 1 or 2.

Absolutely, my friend. It looks like Kolb is coming good for us, and coming good on that contract.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Gee, I was complimentary to Kolb, made a clear joke with the specifically catered joking smilie...but I didn't say Kolb walks on water, so I'm a big meanie

As I said board is a little defensive of Kolb right now. I guess a 4 month debate will do that.

I am not going to get upset that people are keyed up about the team and the QB they were hoping would be the starter in the fiest place.

I may not agree with the statements but I am all about the good vibes getting thrown to Kolb right now.


Sent from Rugbymuffin's Super Phone

 

[52brandon]

The Cardinals started out 7-0 in 1974.

...dave

you are correct. However, we are on an 8 game home win streak that is the longest since 1925. With it being so long since we've looked this good, there's a LOT of stats we're hearing about and it's easy to mix em up...

As I said board is a little defensive of Kolb right now. I guess a 4 month debate will do that.

I am not going to get upset that people are keyed up about the team and the QB they were hoping would be the starter in the fiest place.

I may not agree with the statements but I am all about the good vibes getting thrown to Kolb right now.


Sent from Rugbymuffin's Super Phone

I'm enjoying knowing that this team can, and does, win with either

 

[Krangodnzr]

In the preseason, my thoughts on this subject were clear:

Our QBs suck, Kolb will suck less.

I've changed a little on this. I no longer believe that Kolb sucks; he's somewhere between adequate and good. I think Kerouac is spot on that he's in the 15-25 range, but I would put him closer to 15 than 25.

Should we draft a QB? Not if we are a playoff team, I severely doubt that we would find a better QB/QB prospect in the 20's. It would be better to build the team further than to draft a QB that isn't likely to be better than Kolb.

Is Kolb better than Skelton? I think the answer is unequivocally yes. People can hide behind the 6-2 ( 6-2 DERP) all they want, but the numbers back up Kolb as the better QB. As someone else said earlier in the thread, does anyone honestly believe that Skelton could make that throw to Roberts in the front corner of the endzone? I don't think so, and I bet 32 NFL GMs wouldn't either. Skelton is a nice back up QB, but I don't think he's even a top 30 starter in the league. I'd take Matt Moore over Skelton and I'd probably take Byron Leftwich/Charlie Batch over Skelton. My point being is that he's not even a great backup.

As far as Kolb as a franchise guy, no that's not what he's becoming. He's becoming that Matt Hasselbeck-caliber starter. He's good enough to win you games, but not on his back. If you need him to make a big throw, he can do it, but don't expect him to carry your team.

Kolb is the answer for this team right now, and Skelton has no business taking the job back. Sure Kolb is going to make mistakes, but Skelton will make more and he won't make as many accurate throws.

 

[Shane]

In the preseason, my thoughts on this subject were clear:

Our QBs suck, Kolb will suck less.

I've changed a little on this. I no longer believe that Kolb sucks; he's somewhere between adequate and good. I think Kerouac is spot on that he's in the 15-25 range, but I would put him closer to 15 than 25.

Should we draft a QB? Not if we are a playoff team, I severely doubt that we would find a better QB/QB prospect in the 20's. It would be better to build the team further than to draft a QB that isn't likely to be better than Kolb.

Is Kolb better than Skelton? I think the answer is unequivocally yes. People can hide behind the 6-2 ( 6-2 DERP) all they want, but the numbers back up Kolb as the better QB. As someone else said earlier in the thread, does anyone honestly believe that Skelton could make that throw to Roberts in the front corner of the endzone? I don't think so, and I bet 32 NFL GMs wouldn't either. Skelton is a nice back up QB, but I don't think he's even a top 30 starter in the league. I'd take Matt Moore over Skelton and I'd probably take Byron Leftwich/Charlie Batch over Skelton. My point being is that he's not even a great backup.

As far as Kolb as a franchise guy, no that's not what he's becoming. He's becoming that Matt Hasselbeck-caliber starter. He's good enough to win you games, but not on his back. If you need him to make a big throw, he can do it, but don't expect him to carry your team.

Kolb is the answer for this team right now, and Skelton has no business taking the job back. Sure Kolb is going to make mistakes, but Skelton will make more and he won't make as many accurate throws.

Good stuff!

 

[Duckjake]

I don't need to link it if you post here you've seen the posts of people saying Fitz is a different animal and you need to throw to him even when he doesn't have separation.

Yes you do. You claimed it you have to back it up. Just like you always ask others to do.

All kidding aside, there is a distinct difference in wanting Cardinal QBs to throw the ball to Larry where only Larry being Larry can catch it and forcing the ball to Larry where even Larry being Larry can't catch it.

 

[52brandon]

Yes you do. You claimed it you have to back it up. Just like you always ask others to do.

All kidding aside, there is a distinct difference in wanting Cardinal QBs to throw the ball to Larry where only Larry being Larry can catch it and forcing the ball to Larry where even Larry being Larry can't catch it.

he can't catch the ball when he's pushed over out of bounds

 

[Syracusecards]

Kerry Rhodes is a good one to talk about playing bad though, it was his error that allow Miami to get back in the game.

The game is what it is, but Rhodes does his job, and Wilson/Toler can catch and we are singing a different tune.

If that is as bad as the defense plays this year, we will win the Superbowl.

I hope I saw this wrong but it really looked like AW was jogging for quite awhile before finally turning on the jets to try and catch him when it was too late. Did anyone else notice this?

 

[52brandon]

I hope I saw this wrong but it really looked like AW was jogging for quite awhile before finally turning on the jets to try and catch him when it was too late. Did anyone else notice this?

there's a certain point when sprinting that you give up your balance to move a little faster. He may have decided he had to take that risk when he couldn't catch him normally

 

[Shane]

there's a certain point when sprinting that you give up your balance to move a little faster. He may have decided he had to take that risk when he couldn't catch him normally

I hope he did do it. He was just out the week before with groin and ankle injuries. Don't need him going all out and risk further Injury for someone your VERY unlikely to catch regardless.

 

[Syracusecards]

I hope he did do it. He was just out the week before with growing and ankle injuries. Don't need him going all out and risk further Injury for someone your VERY unlikely to catch regardless.

ADUB is still having growing pains??? He really IS a man-child! Jk but if we didn't win, I would bet your response would be different.

 

[Shane]

ADUB is still having growing pains??? He really IS a man-child! Jk but if we didn't win, I would bet your response would be different.

Groin

And no it wouldn't. He wasn't catching Hartline regardless.