OT: Brian Flores Suing NFL Alleging Racism

[DaHilg]

I can't find the article it was on my phone last night, I think Shaun King referenced it too.

But I gotta say after reading that article I would love the Cards to see if they can get Caldwell to come here and coach Kyler.

Yuck - Caldwell is awful. Reason why the Colts got rid of him (I’m originally from Indiana). He was worthless and Manning along w everyone else knew it.

 

[Russ Smith]

Yuck - Caldwell is awful. Reason why the Colts got rid of him (I’m originally from Indiana). He was worthless and Manning along w everyone else knew it.

Manning credited Caldwell with changing his career. Said he showed him video of every INT he'd thrown for 3 years and they went over why it happened, what can he do differently etc.

Peyton Manning praises Lions coach Jim Caldwell for helping launch career

Caldwell worked for a decade with sure-fire Hall of Famer Peyton Manning, first as his quarterback coach and for two seasons as his head coach. Manning went to nine consecutive Pro Bowls under his watch, was a five-time first-team All-Pro and four times was named the league's MVP.

www.mlive.com

"Jim Caldwell has meant a great deal to me in my career," Manning said Tuesday during Super Bowl media day at the Prudential Center in Newark. "I felt like once he got to Indianapolis and became my quarterbacks coach, that my game really improved. It took a step up, and I thought Jim had a great deal to do with that.



"He and I had a set routine that we tried to perform every day in the meeting room, on the practice field, in different drills. And from 2003 to 2008, when he was the quarterbacks coach, I was playing at a high level."


Also the guy started his first year as head coach at 14-0, then the team ordered him to bench most of the starters to rest for the playoffs so they finished 14-2. That started the issues Caldwell had, he wanted to go 16-0 but Bill Polian wanted to rest guys for the playoffs. they made it to the SB but lost to the Saints. 14-2 rookie year.

They went 10-6 next year lost first playoff game. then Manning had another neck surgery, missed the season and the Colts opted to not go out and get a legit starting QB instead they tanked to get Andrew Luck. It worked, they got him, but went 2-14 and then fired Caldwell. So his 3 year record was 36 and 32 but it was highly deceiving as the 2-14 was intentional they had no NFL starting QB on the roster.

Both Manning and Stafford absolutely love caldwell.

 

[Buckybird]

I can't find the article it was on my phone last night, I think Shaun King referenced it too.

But I gotta say after reading that article I would love the Cards to see if they can get Caldwell to come here and coach Kyler.

That’s they guy I wanted before we hired Kliff.

 

[Buckybird]

The billionaire owner would deny this and he would lose his job and be blackballed by the NFL. Just like what is now happening.

I guess it’s just me but I personally would have more pride in myself & step away.

 

[RON_IN_OC]

I can't find the article it was on my phone last night, I think Shaun King referenced it too.

But I gotta say after reading that article I would love the Cards to see if they can get Caldwell to come here and coach Kyler.

I think Caldwell is fantastic...kinda like Tom Moore with Peyton.

 

[BritCard]

Why would a HC who was asked by his owner to lose games on purpose not resign his position immediately? Sounds a little fishy to me as well.

The truth will come out soon. Sucks for all parties involved at this point.

Except he didn't did he. This was over 2 years ago.

And he didn't resign at all.

 

[DaHilg]

Manning credited Caldwell with changing his career. Said he showed him video of every INT he'd thrown for 3 years and they went over why it happened, what can he do differently etc.

Peyton Manning praises Lions coach Jim Caldwell for helping launch career

Caldwell worked for a decade with sure-fire Hall of Famer Peyton Manning, first as his quarterback coach and for two seasons as his head coach. Manning went to nine consecutive Pro Bowls under his watch, was a five-time first-team All-Pro and four times was named the league's MVP.

www.mlive.com

"Jim Caldwell has meant a great deal to me in my career," Manning said Tuesday during Super Bowl media day at the Prudential Center in Newark. "I felt like once he got to Indianapolis and became my quarterbacks coach, that my game really improved. It took a step up, and I thought Jim had a great deal to do with that.



"He and I had a set routine that we tried to perform every day in the meeting room, on the practice field, in different drills. And from 2003 to 2008, when he was the quarterbacks coach, I was playing at a high level."


Also the guy started his first year as head coach at 14-0, then the team ordered him to bench most of the starters to rest for the playoffs so they finished 14-2. That started the issues Caldwell had, he wanted to go 16-0 but Bill Polian wanted to rest guys for the playoffs. they made it to the SB but lost to the Saints. 14-2 rookie year.

They went 10-6 next year lost first playoff game. then Manning had another neck surgery, missed the season and the Colts opted to not go out and get a legit starting QB instead they tanked to get Andrew Luck. It worked, they got him, but went 2-14 and then fired Caldwell. So his 3 year record was 36 and 32 but it was highly deceiving as the 2-14 was intentional they had no NFL starting QB on the roster.

Both Manning and Stafford absolutely love caldwell.

Your lens is quite diff than a colts fans lens.. again Manning is about as PC as it gets. His time management was terrible and decision making as a HC was awful…. There’s a reason why colts moved on from him to start the Luck era and also why the lowly lions got rid of him after 2 winning seasons. I’m sure we can grasp little positive nuggets on any coach in media clippings.

 

[Russ Smith]

Your lens is quite diff than a colts fans lens.. again Manning is about as PC as it gets. His time management was terrible and decision making as a HC was awful…. There’s a reason why colts moved on from him to start the Luck era and also why the lowly lions got rid of him after 2 winning seasons. I’m sure we can grasp little positive nuggets on any coach in media clippings.

I'm not a Colts fan yes but the guy was 14-2 and 10-6 his first 2 seasons he essentially kept going what Dungy had going before him, and remember Caldwell was the QB coach during much of the Dungy years there so he was partly responsible for it. Then Manning had the neck surgery and they decided Manning was too old to count on so they were going to tank to get luck. Enter Curtis Painter 8 starts, Dan Orlovsky 5 starts and 39 year old Kerry Collins 3 starts, 2-14 welcome Andrew Luck. But then they surprised the whole team by firing Caldwell.

Luck went 11-5 the first 3 years, again the team was fine they simply didn't want to win so they could get luck so they put non NFL caliber Qb's on the field that one year. They blamed Caldwell for a bad year but the bad year was intentional


If you have any links or anything to suggest why he was fired that would be great, all I've seen is the 2-14 record

Google says 2 reasons he was fired, 2-14 and they had a new GM, the new Gm was afraid someone was going to hire away the DC Pagano, so he fired the HC Caldwell and promoted the DC Pagano. 3 straight winning years where Luck was getting pummeled and then they hired Reich because they wanted a better offensive coach.

 

[Russ Smith]

If you read about Caldwell it kind of opens your eyes a bit to exactly what Flores is alleging.

Caldwell was the QB coach in Miami in 2019, he had a health condition and resigned to take care of himself. he said he completely remade himself, plant based diet now, but when he tried to get back into coaching people kept either saying no or saying they were concerned about his health.

Remember the cycle, after he was fired they hired Pagano who eventually hired Arians as his OC. Pagano got Leukemia so Arians was interim coach, Pagano recovered and got the job back. We hired Arians. When Bruce retired from us citing health issues we hired Wilks. Bruce sat out a year then came back and got the Bucs job. So the black guy takes a partial year off to get healthy and can't find another job. The 2 white guys, both of whom had more serious health issues come right back and get the job no problem.

And of course this year Caldwell at one point was considered a front runner in Chicago, 2 interviews blew them away, here's the offense I'm going to run, this is how we're going to develop Justin fields, and then they hired Eberflus the DC from the Colts instead. And Eberflus has now admitted he was offered both the Bears job and the Jags job and chose Chicago. The Jags still look like they might hire Leftwich but Caldwell is on their list too but considered unlikely there.

Doesn't mean it's because he's black but you can see 3 coaches all with health issues, 2 very serious one we don't actually know what was wrong with Caldwell. And the black guy is the one being told we're concerned about your health.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Oh may gosh, I really don't want to get too involved in this, but I do want to point out there is a Federal estate tax (aka the death tax) that I believe probably serves as much or more a social engineering purpose as it does a revenue generator.

For those unfamiliar with it, I'll try to summarize about a million words of tax law into 50 or so:

When you die, the Federal government takes part of your net worth as a tax. Let's call the rate 40% for discussion purposes. So, in a nutshell, if Bill gates dies tomorrow, and his net worth is 20 Billion, then 8 billion goes to the government, and 12 to his heirs.

Now, as Ouchie or anyone else involved in the tax law will tell you, there are multiple, multiple caveats and exceptions to the above basic proposition. For example, if your net worth at death is less than 11 million or so, you're completely exempt from this tax, and the entire amount of your net worth goes to your heirs (which I agree with 1000%, and I personally would make all estates of less than 50 million exempt from the death tax).

However, I did want to point out this morning that there is a mechanism in place to prevent families from accumulating wealth unchecked. The tax applies to each generation. So every time a family's wealth is passed down to the children, the government takes a sizable chunk. And I support this. I don't want the Gates Family accumulating so much wealth that they decide to buy Maine, and the estate tax (aka the "death" or "transfer" tax) is one way to prevent this.

I'm not going to argue the merits of the estate tax beyond this post. If you hate it or like it or think that it doesn't work right, great. No tax law is perfect. But I'm on the record as saying it helps America stay America, and helps to prevent an oligarchy situation.

Carry on!

Uh yeah I can tell you there a myriad number of ways that the wealthiest pass their wealth for decades whilst effectively sidestepping the estate tax. The richest of the rich have schemes unavailable to even those we consider wealthy. So in some ways the estate tax - and the carveouts - have actually worked to increase the wealth disparity between 0.1% and everyone else.

 

[RON_IN_OC]

Who is the Black Lane Kiffin? A guy who failed over and over and kept getting chances until he found the right fit?

Wilks is never getting another head coaching job.

Flores is probably never getting another shot.

Hue Jackson is never going to get another look.

Of those, Hue did get 2 jobs...Oak and Cle, right? He won't get another, along with the other's you mention.

 

[RON_IN_OC]

Why would a HC who was asked by his owner to lose games on purpose not resign his position immediately? Sounds a little fishy to me as well.

The truth will come out soon. Sucks for all parties involved at this point.

Well, Jerry Springer once paid a prostitute with a personal check and got fired as mayor, so stranger things have happened.

 

[slanidrac16]

Literally no one has said change hasn’t occurred. That said if you were on the receiving end of the disparate treatment would you want that thrown in your face or actual equality?we need to stop patting ourselves on the back fir becoming less racist and eliminate it altogether.

Okay so we are moving in the right direction. But not every incident or hiring can be pointed at or blamed on the problem.
I’m sure there are owners trying to do the right things but I wouldn’t expect them to hire an inferior coach( in their opinion) for the sake of ratio.
As I said in another post if an owner had a choice of hiring Payton or Leftwich most if not all would choose Payton. Would it be fair to criticize that choice?

 

[Crimson Warrior]

Uh yeah I can tell you there a myriad number of ways that the wealthiest pass their wealth for decades whilst effectively sidestepping the estate tax. The richest of the rich have schemes unavailable to even those we consider wealthy. So in some ways the estate tax - and the carveouts - have actually worked to increase the wealth disparity between 0.1% and everyone else.

I mean in 2020 alone, 18 billion came of the game board via the estate tax, none of that from the middle class, and the vast majority of it from the top 1% of Americans in terms of wealth. 18 billion man. Poof. Gone from the wealthiest in just one year alone. There are only 604 (give or take) billionaires in the US to begin with.

I'm not going to argue that there are techniques (like the GRAT) that allow the wealthy to minimize the estate tax they pay, but I think the ultimate effectiveness (looking at estate tax paid over several generations) of these techniques is probably overstated. But I don't specialize in estate tax planning, so I'm being careful not to get out of my depth here.

Still, let's not act like it's a complete sham. Otherwise, how did the IRS manage to collect 18 freaking billion of estate tax in just one year alone?

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Okay so we are moving in the right direction. But not every incident or hiring can be pointed at or blamed on the problem.
I’m sure there are owners trying to do the right things but I wouldn’t expect them to hire an inferior coach( in their opinion) for the sake of ratio.
As I said in another post if an owner had a choice of hiring Payton or Leftwich most if not all would choose Payton. Would it be fair to criticize that choice?

Cripes in every post defending the status quo there’s a statement that implies the black candidate is inferior or unqualified . . . and we wonder why there’s a problem.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I mean in 2020 alone, 18 billion came of the game board via the estate tax, none of that from the middle class, and the vast majority of it from the top 1% of Americans in terms of wealth. 18 billion man. Poof. Gone from the wealthiest in just one year alone. There are only 604 (give or take) billionaires in the US to begin with.

I'm not going to argue that there are techniques (like the GRAT) that allow the wealthy to minimize the estate tax they pay, but I think the ultimate effectiveness (looking at estate tax paid over several generations) of these techniques is probably overstated. But I don't specialize in estate tax planning, so I'm being careful not to get out of my depth here.

Still, let's not act like it's a complete sham. Otherwise, how did the IRS manage to collect 18 freaking billion of estate tax in just one year alone?

Do you realize what a drop in the bucket $18 billion is to the wealthiest of generational wealth transfers?

 

[Crimson Warrior]

Do you realize what a drop in the bucket $18 billion is to the wealthiest of generational wealth transfers?

Could you rephrase the question please? It's not quite clear.

 

[THESMEL]

Well I said before I thought the Rooney rule was an embarrassment to the NFL and the entire USA. I wish it wasn’t, but this kind of kicks it up in the air and down the road.

Art Shell, Denny Green, Dungy, Tomlin, Condi Rice, President Obama and many others earned their glory colorless through performance. The world has changed bunches toward the better since my birth and MLK Leadership.

huge majority of all Americans could care less who provides service or product for their money spent. Only that they provide their service with integrity and dignity, on handshake or contract. That is what defines content of character.

Those who must consider discriminating factors over policy and performance seems the challenge. Sad we had to take this journey as a country and world in the first place, but that is where we’re at 22 years after the year 2000.

 

[kerouac9]

Could you rephrase the question please? It's not quite clear.

Not to put words into Ouchie's mouth, but $18 billion in estate taxes reflects just $45 billion in estates. Sheldon Adelson alone had a $33 billion fortune when he passed away.

The top 1% of population in this country controls over 45% of the wealth. I mean, yes, $18 billion seems like a lot of money, but to the truly wealthy it's not much.

Like, if the Bidwill family had to pay estate taxes on the est. $1 billion or so that the Cards were worth when Bill died, do you think they'd be able to keep ownership control of the team?

 

[Crimson Warrior]

Not to put words into Ouchie's mouth, but $18 billion in estate taxes reflects just $45 billion in estates. Sheldon Adelson alone had a $33 billion fortune when he passed away.

The top 1% of population in this country controls over 45% of the wealth. I mean, yes, $18 billion seems like a lot of money, but to the truly wealthy it's not much.

Like, if the Bidwill family had to pay estate taxes on the est. $1 billion or so that the Cards were worth when Bill died, do you think they'd be able to keep ownership control of the team?

K9, I'm not arguing that wealth inequality is not a problem. Okay? I am particularly concerned about the pressure money puts on a democratic system set up like ours. I don't want people amassing trillion dollar fortunes, and so that's why I favor the estate tax. So there's that.

But did you know that when you pass, for example, the amount of your estate that you bequeath to charitable organizations (like the Red Cross) is estate tax free? And so, without seeing the actual estate tax return for the person in your example, I'm not going to concede that he clowned the system. There are too many caveats and nuances to the estate tax law to just blithely make that assumption.

Neither am I saying the estate tax is perfect. You're right to a certain extent that the very wealthy employ highly credentialed and trained professionals to minimize the estate tax on a specific estate tax returns. I work with them at my
Firm, and I see the fruits of their labors. But again man, show me some statistics or an article or something that supports the idea that a 10 billion dollar estate was passed to family members without a significant amount of estate tax being paid, because I don't really think that's happening. I'll concede this afternoon that the estate tax is not working as well as it could, but I'll also stand by the idea that, just like the income tax law, at a certain point, the estate tax law becomes undefeatable, and you have to pay in what you're required to pay in.

Finally, closing point... please look at the Forbes 400

The Forbes 400 List 2024 - The Richest People in America Ranked

Forbes' 2024 list of the 400 Richest People in America ranks U.S. billionaires and the wealthiest people in the United States by their net worths.

www.forbes.com

Do you know what jumps out at me? A lot of the richest people are new money. You don't see names like "Rockefeller" and "Carnegie" or "Ford". Instead you see "Musk" "Zuckerberg" and "Walton". My point is that yes, we need to be vigilant against oligarchy, but it's not a problem yet, and part of the reason is that the estate tax helps to keep family fortunes from growing unchecked. Mark Zuckerbergs family doesn't have to avoid estate tax only on what he passes to his heirs. His heirs also have to find a way to minimize estate tax when they pass it to their children. And so on. The IRS gets a crack at a Family's wealth each generation, and (I think) most estate tax planning techniques only defer (big difference vs. actually not paying) a certain amount of estate tax for a generation, or maybe two. Again, I'm not an estate planning expert, so I'm not going to say this is gospel, but I've been in public accounting for 26 years now.

So, vote to keep the estate tax, and vote to make it a little stronger Also don't despair too much sir when some crazy "watchdog" organization makes some sweeping claim that the estate tax is sham, but I don't think that it is.

 

[TRW]

Threads get so confusing when two totally different topics are going on. Is this about the Flores suit or inheritance? LOL

 

[carrrnuttt]

I read a story last night about Jim caldwell, will try to find it it's a very long story but basically he's one of the guys cited by Flores in the story. Caldwell was at one point Peyton Manning's QB coach, Manning credits him with turning his career around, got him to cut his INT's, made him a more accurate thrower. Then he went to Detroit and did the same thing with Matthew Stafford. Stafford absolutely raves about him said again he saved my career, made me an NFL QB.

But Caldwell got into a similar situation when he was the Colts coach Manning got hurt and they tanked the year to get Andrew Luck. They intentionally didn't sign a good QB, went 2-14, got Luck and then fired Caldwell for losing 14 games. note, they were 14-2 his first year as the Coach! Went to the Ravens where as QB coach he helped them get to a SB with Joe freaking Flacco as QB. Then he got the Lions job 11-5 playoffs first year as coach, then 7-9, 9-7, 9-7 again wtih the LIONS! They fired him and hired Matt Patricia, Caldwell was 36-28 as Lions coach which is like 3 times the winning % of any coach before or after him in Detroit.

He's nearly 70 and yes we interviewed him for HC before hiring Kliff. honestly if you read the article and read the comments from QB's he's coached you'd be hoping we hire him as QB coach to work with Kyler.

QB guru Jim Caldwell is Exhibit A in Brian Flores lawsuit, we’ve got the receipts​

 

[RON_IN_OC]

Threads get so confusing when two totally different topics are going on. Is this about the Flores suit or inheritance? LOL

Yes.

 

[cardncubfan]

I dont know the answer. It's a complex situation. I do know that the status quo is not it. I also know that when noted failures like Kliff Kingsbury get a better opportunity at NFL HC jobs than Eric Bienemy, that there's a sistemic issue.

I'd hope that the people smarter than me and more aware have better solutions than the "Rooney Rule," which seems to be counterintuitive.

I believe Kliff was hired because he had a great offense & the Cards knew if they hired him as an OC he would be taken for a head coaching job by another team. That is why they hired him as a HC. As far as I know Bieniemy runs Reids offense & may or may not call the plays.

 

[Russ Smith]

QB guru Jim Caldwell is Exhibit A in Brian Flores lawsuit, we’ve got the receipts​

Thank you yes that's the article. Could not find it anywhere