Pace signed!

[Sandan]

Originally posted by cheesebeef
Nidan's probably coming to get him as we speak.

Now you are taking a dig at me Cheese and I try to be polite with you even if I think you may be a tad manic depressive.

 

[Sandan]

Originally posted by KingofCards
Hmmm. I guess the gag order may be officially over. If true this does not bode well for getting the kid in anytime soon. IMho of course.

What are you talking about, IMO he isn't replying because he screwed up and doesn't want to talk about it.

 

[KingofCards]

Originally posted by ajcardfan
Johnson should be seriously considering getting a new agent tonight. It'll set him back a few days (the NFLPA has to approve the new agent), but it might actually gain him time, and money, in the long run. Bidwill and Graves aren't going to buckle under these sorts of tactics from any agent. The kid can hold out till October, and they won't bend.

The smart move for Johnson would be to get a new guy, maybe even Pace's agent, and start over.

Good point. And I don't believe they should buckle. From what we have heard, even if it looks like heresay, the agent is trying to play the Cards and make a name for himself. In the mean time screwing his client. He is playing pr games now with the Cards and make them look bad in the papers. I wish a National reporter could write it up from the Cards perspective.

It appears Graves is holding to pledge, at least so far, not to go public with the negotiations. Too bad the agent can't play fair.

It looks to me as if the agent was trying to screw Pace and his agent, and it backfired.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Originally posted by nidan
Now you are taking a dig at me Cheese and I try to be polite with you even if I think you may be a tad manic depressive.

Jeez - Nidan I was just having some fun with you, just like you did in another thread today when I atcually got off the computer and you mentioned "that I was probably going into hiding."

 

[KingofCards]

Originally posted by nidan
What are you talking about, IMO he isn't replying because he screwed up and doesn't want to talk about it.

From what Skkorp said I think the agent went National to Pasquarelli but would not allow Lenny to use him as the source.

He is now playing games in the media. It appears from Skkorp's report that he picked his man in Lenny and broke the agreement. If so he is a fool. I deal with lawyers quite often and have never had one that would go sulk in negotiations. When they are put in a situation like this, they will take it personal and make it ugly. Just my humble opinion. He still has bargaining power and I think he has two options to use: Holdout and Media.

Why do think Lenny broke this signing? The Cards signing Pace would never be on his radar unless Segal broke it to him.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Originally posted by KingofCards
Good point. And I don't believe they should buckle. From what we have heard, even if it looks like heresay, the agent is trying to play the Cards and make a name for himself. In the mean time screwing his client. He is playing pr games now with the Cards and make them look bad in the papers. I wish a National reporter could write it up from the Cards perspective.

It appears Graves is holding to pledge, at least so far, not to go public with the negotiations. Too bad the agent can't play fair.

It looks to me as if the agent was trying to screw Pace and his agent, and it backfired.

Wait a second - didn't Skkorp say the Cardinal PR people came out and told him what was going on with negotiations? Didn't people then jump all over that? Isn't Skkorp the media? Hell - there we atcually have an admission by the source who told him what was going on with negotiations - does that mean Graves is still standing by his "pledge" - or is it now that all pledges are off and our PR people will say whatever they want to. Right now it's he said, she said, but it looks to me that the assumption that was made as far as filing that grievance looks to be a little more founded than most of you thought.

Bottom line is this - in negotiations it takes two to tango - and I think there's probably been missteps on both sides. Any know who this now "shady" figures other clients are? I'm curious to know what his other shameful dealings have been like with other teams that don't have the track record with first round picks that we do.

 

[KingofCards]

I never did give my opinion on the matter. You just assumed I was confident he would sign tomorrow.

I think it came to a stand off with the one guy, so they signed the other. Segal has a lot of explaining to do to Johnson. I know about the "track record", the agents know about the "track record". But the Cardinals can't suddenly just give in to negotiations, because of the "track record".

They have negotiated in good faith this year. Segal tried to take advantage of the "track record". They allowed the mini-camp waiver, they used bells and whistles.

Tell me what you think they did wrong again? It can't always be the team's fault. Even it the "track record" dictates it as so in the basic perception.

Of course all of the above is just my perception and quite possibly and even most likely, is completely wrong. In fact in might change when future reports come to light.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Originally posted by KingofCards
I never did give my opinion on the matter. You just assumed I was confident he would sign tomorrow.

I think it came to a stand off with the one guy, so they signed the other. Segal has a lot of explaining to do to Johnson. I know about the "track record", the agents know about the "track record". But the Cardinals can't suddenly just give in to negotiations.

They have negotiated in good faith this year. Segal tried to take advantage of the "track record". They allowed the mini-camp waiver, they used bells and whistles.

Tell me what you think they did wrong again? It can't always be the team's fault. Even it the "track record" dictates it as so in the basic perception.

I'm not sure what you are reffering to in your first sentence but for the rest, I'll try to answer you from what I know and the figures we have seen apparently left in the rookie pool my opinion of what happened.

Well - considering that none of really know what is going on - this is what I think went werong from published reports - Pace and Johnson were being offered the same amount of money - to me that doesn't sound like good faith - good faith would be an acknowledgment of their draft positions. Then as it became apparent that of the two guys Pace was deemed more important - more money under the rookie pool was offered to him and Pace agent promptly jumped on it. Offering more money to a draft pick who is drafted below you doesn't make much sense in negotiations to me. In addition to this, the track record does have to be thrown into the mix as well - you can;t ignore the fact that Graves has had problems getting guys into camp on time - can you?

Also - what about the whole standing by his pledge thing you were talking about with Graves and the Cards - going to Skkorp and leaking word of the negotiations.

 

[Sandan]

Originally posted by cheesebeef
Jeez - Nidan I was just having some fun with you, just like you did in another thread today when I atcually got off the computer and you mentioned "that I was probably going into hiding."

Is ok, you get a tad intense sometimes so I wasn't sure.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Originally posted by nidan
Is ok, you get a tad intense sometimes so I wasn't sure.

Nidan - know this as far as your concerned - I think you are like me - completely crazy - and we are just on opposite sides of the fence.

 

[KingofCards]

My first sentence was in reponse to you saying this:

"No - you're right I am perceiving it negatively - you are perceiving everything positively"

I can't see where I am perceiving this positively. I am in the middle, trying look at the facts as they present themselves and taking my opinion from there. I also stated that this negotiation has now broken down.

I also didn't see where it was reported, even if by heresay, that the offers where equal? I say heresay, because none of the media, including Skkorp and Lenny, have used direct quotes from anyone. I feel that the 17th guy should get more money than the 18th guy. Getting more money though in the NFL is completely relative to each person in their situation. Especially if they are only one pick apart.

Show me where it has been said that when the deals were being offered today, both players were offered equal deals? If so I missed it and I would not be surprised that I was wrong.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Originally posted by KingofCards
My first sentence was in reponse to you saying this:

"No - you're right I am perceiving it negatively - you are perceiving everything positively"

I can't see where I am perceiving this positively. I am in the middle, trying look at the facts as they present themselves and taking my opinion from there. I also stated that this negotiation has now broken down.

I also didn't see where it was reported, even if by heresay, that the offers where equal? I say heresay, because none of the media, including Skkorp and Lenny, have used direct quotes from anyone. I feel that the 17th guy should get more money than the 18th guy. Getting more money though in the NFL is completely relative to each person in their situation. Especially if they are only one pick apart.

Show me where it has been said that when the deals were being offered today, both players were offered equal deals? If so I missed it and I would not be surprised that I was wrong.

First post:

"Up until Sunday, the Cardinals were on similar negotiating paths with both of their first-round choices, offering each of them guaranteed money of about $4.4 million. But the team's emphasis then shifted to Pace, after team officials reportedly assessed that getting him into camp was more critical, and their offer increased significantly."

 

[KingofCards]

Originally posted by cheesebeef
First post:

"Up until Sunday, the Cardinals were on similar negotiating paths with both of their first-round choices, offering each of them guaranteed money of about $4.4 million. But the team's emphasis then shifted to Pace, after team officials reportedly assessed that getting him into camp was more critical, and their offer increased significantly."

That is a vague approximation, provided by the agent of the 17th pick. And to this point is conjecture at the best and sour grapes at the least.

Read the opposing:

"Just talked to the Cards PR people. What happened is that the Cards were close to signing Pace and called Joel Segal to tell him they wanted to get both signings done today.

Segal essentially told them he wasn't interested in working to help fit both players into the available cap allotment.

Rod Graves then made the decision not to wait on Johnson because it was obvious Joel Segal wasn't going to be reasonable."


I agree that Rod made the reasonable decision to close the negotiations with Pace and deal with Johnson's agent.

Who will now be at the mercy of the Cards rookie cap and the only option of going back into the draft.

Which, in your opinion, he never should have been drafted in the 1st round this year! That is how negotiations are. What is he next year a 5th rounder?

We don't know what the offer is. It is all conjecture at this point. The Cards have 10 unproven rookies in camp now. The fool should have signed. His agent fvcked him.

 

[azwulf]

I think his agent knows he screwed up by pushing it too far. That's the reason why he is complaining and threatening with the grievance.

 

[cardpa]

I think its pretty simple. The team needed Pace in camp more than Johnson. The team needs help on the Dline more than WR since they have a cornicopia of WRs in camp. Graves job is to help the team be as competitive as possible and that meant getting Pace into camp.

I am a huge PSU fan and would love to see BJ in Cardinal red however his agent should have had enough sense to read the writing on the wall and realize the Cards needed Pace more than Johnson. I think thats just plain common sense.

Besides who the hell are the agents to tell a team how to spend their money? Imagine if someone was telling you that you should be buying a sports car because its rated higher than the minivan you need because you have 4 kids to tote around. Would you really give a damm about the rating when you know you need the minivan more?

I personally think Graves did what was most helpful for the team and that in a nutshell is his job to do whatever it takes to help move the team forward I am sure none of those other WRs are crying their eyes out that BJ isn't in camp yet.

 

[maddogkf]

Originally posted by Stout
Hey Maddog, the shrimp store called...

Damn...you mean the ocean called? They're outta shrimp!

 

[Stout]

Originally posted by maddogkf
Damn...you mean the ocean called? They're outta shrimp!

Oh yeah? The jerk store called, and they're outta you! *crickets chirping*

 

[AZCB34]

Cheesebeef, I am replying to your message on the other thread over here.

I had a large project dumped on my lap yesterday by a client and I never logged into ASFN until about 5pm. That is the first time I heard the news of Pace's signing...and the ensuing melee on this thread.

My thoughts:

First, great news on the signing and getting pace into camp. I made no secret of my displeasure with the holdouts. Pace was critical since he is going to be depended on to provide pass rush this year. The thing that people miss is that Johnson was critical too...as you can read in my third point. Just because you deem one player more critical (as Graves did) I am not sure that means you essentially screw the other guy up front.

Second, in the big picture I think Graves may have erred...however he has options at his disposal to get himself out of this predicament. The question is at this point: Has the damage already been done? These are the kinds of errors which sour guys on the Cards organization and which makes the rounds of players league wide. Even when Johnson signs...and he will eventually...will the Cards be developing yet another player for the rest of the league.

Third, to all those who say Pace was significantly more important than Johnson...I say maybe but not by much. I am willing to bet my left arm that the coaches had Johnson penciled in as a top 3 WR coming into camp. Just a hunch on my part but they didn't draft him to be #5. The argument that there is alot of depth at WR is all fine and dandy but Johnson was drafted to "replace" Boston IMO.

The smart thing right now, is for Graves to do some immediate damage control and really try and put together a decent offer for Johnson. Blame the agents all you want...and maybe Johnson needs to find a new agent...but Graves has as much at stake here and I think we can all agree that the Cards developing another player for the rest of the league is bad news. Graves did great to not have 2 protracted holdouts. Now he can erase alot of doubts but ending the other one quickly.

I can't wait to read this entire thread. Looks like it should be a doozy.

 

[JeffGollin]

Fresh Perspective

the Cards and Segal both screwed up.If the Cards thought Pace was more of a priority then they should have drafted him first.
You military guys on this bb - help me out here.

Isn't it axiomatic that military brass spends a lot of time developing a battle plan and repeatedly refining it? And then less than a day into the battle they throw half of the plan away because "conditions change?"

Someone took me to task and accused me of spinning the non-signing of Johnson because I said that, given the talent and depth of the 12 receivers we have in camp, I wasn't going to lose much sleep over not having Johnson in here, because I didn't think it would have much as much impact one way or another on the over all performance of team.

Back in March and April, it was obvious the team felt it was in deep excrement due to the defections of Boston and other veteran receivers. To top it off, Gilmore was coming off a major leg injury and no one knew what to expect from him. So the Cardinal brass (in my opinion) went a little hysterical and decided to overdo it with the acquisition of as many receivers as they could get hold of in the hope that at least a few of them would turn out to be good enough. So they drafted Johnson #1a, Boldin #2, traded their #7 for Foster, picked up 3 UFDA's and added Marquis Walker in the trade for TJ.

All of this took place before Camp.

Well, conditions changed. More wideouts in Camp (including Gilmore and Boldin) were looking better than expected.

In the minds of the coaches, this elevated the lack of pass rush to #1 on the priority hit parade.

Yesterday, at the time, was the first day in the rest of the Cardinals' life. And, so, Graves threw away the original plan, (deciding not to worry about what they tried to do 2 months ago) and pulled the trigger on a deal that addressed the team's most pressing need.

Two points:

1. At any given point in time, winning organizations ask themselves "where do we go from here?" They don't worry about whether a move made a couple of months ago is now obsolete. They move onward.

2. Ask yourself this: How much more valuable is a player who's working for you on the practice field than one who is sitting at home waiting for his cranky agent to phone him? Is he worth at least $300,000 more in year one cap money? I think so.

I'm not saying we should walk away from Johnson. I just don't think he's as important to the entire team now as he was thought to be at draft time.

 

[AZCB34]

Re: Fresh Perspective

Originally posted by JeffGollin
the Cards and Segal both screwed up.If the Cards thought Pace was more of a priority then they should have drafted him first.
You military guys on this bb - help me out here.

Isn't it axiomatic that military brass spends a lot of time developing a battle plan and repeatedly refining it? And then less than a day into the battle they throw half of the plan away because "conditions change?"

Someone took me to task and accused me of spinning the non-signing of Johnson because I said that, given the talent and depth of the 12 receivers we have in camp, I wasn't going to lose much sleep over not having Johnson in here, because I didn't think it would have much as much impact one way or another on the over all performance of team.

Back in March and April, it was obvious the team felt it was in deep excrement due to the defections of Boston and other veteran receivers. To top it off, Gilmore was coming off a major leg injury and no one knew what to expect from him. So the Cardinal brass (in my opinion) went a little hysterical and decided to overdo it with the acquisition of as many receivers as they could get hold of in the hope that at least a few of them would turn out to be good enough. So they drafted Johnson #1a, Boldin #2, traded their #7 for Foster, picked up 3 UFDA's and added Marquis Walker in the trade for TJ.

All of this took place before Camp.

Well, conditions changed. More wideouts in Camp (including Gilmore and Boldin) were looking better than expected.

In the minds of the coaches, this elevated the lack of pass rush to #1 on the priority hit parade.

Yesterday, at the time, was the first day in the rest of the Cardinals' life. And, so, Graves threw away the original plan, (deciding not to worry about what they tried to do 2 months ago) and pulled the trigger on a deal that addressed the team's most pressing need.

Two points:

1. At any given point in time, winning organizations ask themselves "where do we go from here?" They don't worry about whether a move made a couple of months ago is now obsolete. They move onward.

2. Ask yourself this: How much more valuable is a player who's working for you on the practice field than one who is sitting at home waiting for his cranky agent to phone him? Is he worth at least $300,000 more in year one cap money? I think so.

I'm not saying we should walk away from Johnson. I just don't think he's as important to the entire team now as he was thought to be at draft time.

Good points. My question is this: Johnson was drafted to "replace" Boston correct? If Boston was still here, they may not have drafted Johnson at all. Thus to me his importance is magnified.

I have no knowledge personally if what I am saying is 100% true but llogically it seems to make sense...to me at least. Is PAce mroe important now that he is signed...you bet. But to piss off a guy who was going to be one of your top WRs...regardless of depth...is a dangerous game.

 

[jmr667]

Re: Fresh Perspective

Originally posted by JeffGollin
the Cards and Segal both screwed up.If the Cards thought Pace was more of a priority then they should have drafted him first.
You military guys on this bb - help me out here.

Isn't it axiomatic that military brass spends a lot of time developing a battle plan and repeatedly refining it? And then less than a day into the battle they throw half of the plan away because "conditions change?"

I believe the saying you are looking for is:
"A plan is merely a basis for future changes."

 

[Billy Flynt]

Let's see.... given the history of this organization, Pace will blow out his knee on Thursday and we won't have either player play a game for us this year....

 

[Stout]

Fair enough Jeff, but if the Cards try to use all that as the basis for lowballing BJ, then they'll be completely wrong. It's all fine and dandy to say the CARDS have changed their priority, but try telling that to BJ.

'We're sorry, Bryant. When we drafted you we really, really liked your potential and ability. Now, though, we like the play of the receivers in camp. We decided we needed the lower draft pick more and decided to pay him more and, indeed, offer him more money than we offered you. If you want to play for us, you'll just have to settle for less money than a player we rated and drafted after you.'

Yeah, I can see that going over real well with BJ, other teams and the NFL in general. It's fine to say Pace was our priority and we wanted him in camp. There's no way in hell it will be all right to lowball BJ based on your assessment.

If they can do the bells and whistles, and still get BJ in camp in good order, very well. Otherwise, we'll have an oopsie-daisy. And, in the military, we always said, 'A million atta-boys are all wiped out by one 'oh sh#t!'

 

[Sandan]

Originally posted by AZCB34
The smart thing right now, is for Graves to do some immediate damage control and really try and put together a decent offer for Johnson.

So you are assuming that RG isn't working with Segal to resolve this ?

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Originally posted by Crimson Warrior
thats a bunch of CRAP!

don't start playing nice now cheesey. You've been a real jerk all day. I've been watching this thread from post one, and you and stout started going off on anybody who even SUGGESTED that the cardinals did the right thing/would be ok.

don't start acting like a victim now that somebody is getting on your butt. its pathetic.

you too ouchie.

i didn't jump on anyone's butt. don't carry over what you might think about my cardinal views to this thread. i just made a couple of comments here and there to spark conversation. i never "jumped" on anyone. sheesh. relax.