Playoffs 2010: Western Conf Finals, Game 6 – Lakers At Suns Game Thread

[AfroSuns]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnWGXKA0I_Q

I hate TNT for showing that. That is a private moment and in this day and age they should know better than to go into the locker room and air private emotions, it is the locker room anyway. Now it will forever be online. Poor Nash

 

[ninous26]

I watched that vid on mute.. So sad, that hurt

 

[joshstmarie]

Man, I didnt get to see that clip. If only everyone left it out on the floor like nash does. I hope sarver and kerr do something huge. Nash deserves a few more shots to win a ring and I dont think we are that far off WITH or W/O amare.

 

[Mainstreet]

Man, I didnt get to see that clip. If only everyone left it out on the floor like nash does. I hope sarver and kerr do something huge. Nash deserves a few more shots to win a ring and I dont think we are that far off WITH or W/O amare.

This is what makes Nash so special. Players can brutalize him during games and Nash takes it without nary a whimper or an excuse. This video is that of a warrior who has given it all. I wish all players left it out on the court like Nash.

 

[D-Dogg]

I hate TNT for showing that. That is a private moment and in this day and age they should know better than to go into the locker room and air private emotions, it is the locker room anyway. Now it will forever be online. Poor Nash

Eh, I respect Nash much more now..I actually love a guy who cries about a loss...means he gives a crap deep down. DEEP down. Nobody should ever give a guy crap for that....

 

[cly2tw]

I don't claim to know squat about Lee's defense but just from watching Amare's D, I'd be willing to gamble that Lee's is better - and factoring in rebounding, which is a major part of defense, much better.

He's not too shabby on the offensive end either, he's scoring over 20 a game and his 3.6 assists/game is third best among PF and C, behind Diaw and Josh Smith. Better than Garnett and Duncan, who are considered premier passers among bigs. Except for getting opponents in foul trouble, he and Amare are close to a wash statistically on the offensive end. Heck with Nash feeding him off the P&R, Lee might score more than Amare.

Of course, I don't want Lee for the max either, but it might be possible to get him for 12 mil, while no way does Amare sign for that 'pittance' even if no one else wants him.

Whether its in the realm of possible under the cap rules is another matter. It would almost take a sign and trade featuring he and Amare to bring off, I imagine. (Dang it all, D'Antoni deserves this monster he helped create!)

Why do you think Amare would go along with the idea of playing for DA again? Just for not playing defense? Despite his shortcomings, Amare has wanted to become a more complete player all along. His appreciation for Gentry is genuine. He just doesn't have enough milage yet to play the 'right' way.

As to Lee, he'd be good 3rd fiddle like Odom on a championship team. But it's delusion to think Nash could get him any more points as DA's NY system would. For one, Nash is much slower. Second, it has a lot to do with Amare, how much Nash could assist the bigman. In playoffs, Lee's function would be at most Odom but more likely Haslem or Troy Murphy.

 

[AfroSuns]

Eh, I respect Nash much more now..I actually love a guy who cries about a loss...means he gives a crap deep down. DEEP down. Nobody should ever give a guy crap for that....

Umm,There will always be idiots who will, did you read the comments from the stupid Laker fans on there and you can imagine how it will creep up in the future in all kind of scenario.

 

[Griffin]

This is what makes Nash so special. Players can brutalize him during games and Nash takes it without nary a whimper or an excuse. This video is that of a warrior who has given it all. I wish all players left it out on the court like Nash.

Yes. Also, Nash already talked about how he wants the team to stay together for next season so they can give it another try. He truly believed that they could have won it this year, and still believes that this same team can have better luck next year. Other players, other stars, at this point might start talking about what changes need to be made, how they are lacking a supporting cast, even threatening to bolt unless the team makes changes. But Nash won't make any excuses. He'll take whatever teammates he's given and try to make the most of it.

 

[OldDirtMcGirt]

Why do you think Amare would go along with the idea of playing for DA again? Just for not playing defense? Despite his shortcomings, Amare has wanted to become a more complete player all along. His appreciation for Gentry is genuine. He just doesn't have enough milage yet to play the 'right' way.

As to Lee, he'd be good 3rd fiddle like Odom on a championship team. But it's delusion to think Nash could get him any more points as DA's NY system would. For one, Nash is much slower. Second, it has a lot to do with Amare, how much Nash could assist the bigman. In playoffs, Lee's function would be at most Odom but more likely Haslem or Troy Murphy.

Amare is already past the developmental stage, and frankly has demonstrated that he does not have the innate basketball awareness/intelligence to become a competent defensive player. The chance of him improving on defense are far less than a player like Lee, who has shown a consistent pattern of improvement over the course of his short career.

And Lee is a far and away more potent offensive player than Haslem or Murphy. Remember that he is putting up 20+ PPG as the Knick's preeminent offensive player. Whatever benefits he might have accrued from playing under Antoni's run and gun system will be easily offset by the fact that he no longer has to carry such a burden on a more offensively potent team like the Suns.

 

[joshstmarie]

I think you should go watch some youtube videos of Lee before you start trashing his PPG. Dude is running the PnR all day long and has some low post game to boot.

 

[jibikao]

Yes. Also, Nash already talked about how he wants the team to stay together for next season so they can give it another try. He truly believed that they could have won it this year, and still believes that this same team can have better luck next year. Other players, other stars, at this point might start talking about what changes need to be made, how they are lacking a supporting cast, even threatening to bolt unless the team makes changes. But Nash won't make any excuses. He'll take whatever teammates he's given and try to make the most of it.

You know what... I get very irritated by Amare after looking at the Top 30 Salaries list. Nash isn't even paid in the top 30. I think Nash truly wants the core to stick together but you have people like Joe Johnson and Marion (who said he wasn't getting respect even though he got paid the most at that time) who just want to play for big $$$.


Amare said he truly wants to win? Then don't demand max. contract to burn Suns. Simple as that. He is NOT worth the max and this team is his best chance to visit Finals.

This year's team has shown that it can really compete. If we have a healthy Lopez, the size problem should be reduced next year and we can expect more from Dragic too. Nash performs very well when he only plays around 30mins.

 

[leclerc]

Lakers vs Celtics is good for the league. Yay...

And NO to Boozer.

 

[cly2tw]

I think you should go watch some youtube videos of Lee before you start trashing his PPG. Dude is running the PnR all day long and has some low post game to boot.

It's not about trashing his PPG. Lee is solid player, a good 3rd fiddle on a championship team. He'd be really good for Magics or Cavs or Lakers. But signing him as the replacement for Amare means we give up the hope of contending while Nash is here. Simple as that.

Amare is already past the developmental stage, and frankly has demonstrated that he does not have the innate basketball awareness/intelligence to become a competent defensive player. The chance of him improving on defense are far less than a player like Lee, who has shown a consistent pattern of improvement over the course of his short career.

And Lee is a far and away more potent offensive player than Haslem or Murphy. Remember that he is putting up 20+ PPG as the Knick's preeminent offensive player. Whatever benefits he might have accrued from playing under Antoni's run and gun system will be easily offset by the fact that he no longer has to carry such a burden on a more offensively potent team like the Suns.

Murphy got insane stats in GS, both PPG and RPG. He was also more than just a 3pt shooting big before he got that fat contract. Lee is certainly more complete, but does he attract double team from good team's defense and create room for others the way Amare does? Haslem is my comparison for his impact on a potential championship team, a role playing big.

 

[joshstmarie]

It's not about trashing his PPG. Lee is solid player, a good 3rd fiddle on a championship team. He'd be really good for Magics or Cavs or Lakers. But signing him as the replacement for Amare means we give up the hope of contending while Nash is here.

I got two words for you. Boris Diaw. Lee>>Diaw. Don't underestimate the power of Nash.

 

[AfroSuns]

I got two words for you. Boris Diaw. Lee>>Diaw. Don't underestimate the power of Nash.

If we have learned anything in the last series, it is how Nash can be contained; put a good defender on him and cut off his passing lanes result is over-dribbling/TO and eventually turn him into a scorer. Nash is getting old and by post-season his age catches up with him.
There is no way Lee can be no 1 on offense, i have only seen a handful of his games but if he cant create his own shots; post up/face up then our offense is just going to be stagnant. You cant even draw an iso play for him since he cant drive like Amare does, that limitation gives the opponent opportunity to stay with the shooters most of the time without committing an extra defender. I know he is a good rebounder, so maybe majority of his pts is from put backs.
Do we even know if he is good at PnR?

 

[cly2tw]

I got two words for you. Boris Diaw. Lee>>Diaw. Don't underestimate the power of Nash.

I have one word for you "less is more"! OK, that's 3 words, but the way we florished starting after ASB was to reduce Nash's dribbling, which vitalized JRich and Amare. As to Diaw, 1) he won't have a contract year any time soon for him to give any effort on the court, 2) with Nash in his prime we struggled bigtime to beat the worst Laker team all time in 7 games and the Clippers too. So your reference to Diaw indicates that you are still living in DA's era.

Well, anyways, if Amare walks, all we realistically have is the MLE. For how good Lee's stats are, he'd get probably 14mil a year deal. Why bother!

 

[joshstmarie]

Ugh, I was on my Iphone last night and couldnt edit or respond to my post as it would log me out before I had a chance to finish.

*Fair warning, If you didnt already know Im a gingantic lee advocate (homer).

First off what I meant by "boris diaw" is if diaw could steer us through the playoffs Avging 18-5-6 then ANYONE can. Someone hit the nail on the head when they described amare as the PF version of Vince carter - empty stats. We had a full season w/o him and a scrubalicious career 10/5/5 with absolutely no bench and still ended up winning 54 games (05/06).

Someone mentioned earlier that Lee doesnt draw the double team like Amare does. Now this is true. But 1.) our offense doesnt revolve around double teams. 2.) Amare never passes out of a double so its not like it makes much of a difference anyways.

Another gripe Ive heard about Lee is that his defense is WORSE than Stats. We have all questioned Amares heart and desire on defense at one point or another but one thing that NY fans will tell you is that Lee leaves everything on the floor 100% of the time. They LOVE him over there.
Hes been playing under Dantoni for 2 years now, where WE ALL personally know how that defensive scheme works. YES, that is a legitimate excuse for his poor defensive numbers. Not only that but who the hell does he have behind him? Eddy frickin Curry? Earl Barron? yikes.
All That being said Amare is a better shot blocker than Lee but on the block Lee wont get pushed around like amare does.

I think alot of people just havent seen Lee play and assume since hes on a bad team hes putting up fluff numbers.

Id say if Amare is an "A" on the pick and roll Id give Lee a "B+". He has a much more rounded game than Amare and although he doesnt attack the rim quite as hard I think youd have trouble finding anyone that does short of Dwight Howard. Basically Amare can draw more fouls but in terms of hands/finishing I think they are just about even with Lee being a MUCH more aware passer.

Which brings me to my next point. Lee avg 3.6 assists a game compared to amares 1. In an offense full of shooters obviously this can be nothing but good. Those exta 2-3 assists a game could easily translate up to 9 extra points which would be devastating in our offense.

Lee came into the league expected to be a 10/10 guy with a high FG%. Hes now a 20-11 with great passing skills, an added midrange jumper and back to the basket footwork that is miles ahead of where Amare could ever hope to be.

Lee may be no amare but I think with Lees rebound/passing it will make us a much better team on both sides of the ball. And if we can bring in a high IQ guy like redick replacing barbosa in our 2nd platoon meanwhile retaining frye because of Lees smaller contract (12-14)..........I think we have a really competitive team for a long time.



Watch this video all the way through and tell me this guy cant Avg 20/10/4 in our offense.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYIJrFUbBpE

Heres a better video that shows his skill set a little bit more.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6YaO05SZ3o&feature=related

 

[AfroSuns]

^^^ Nice Montage. So was Channing Frye's. Dont really tell us a whole lot.

 

[cly2tw]

After all the discussion about Lee, I believe he'd make a great Odom type impact on a contender. In fact, Lee replacing Frye on the current Suns team may have given us the edge to beat the Lakers, with his rebounding and all-around smarts. But Lee replacing Amare on the same team makes us at most a 2nd-round-exit team.

 

[Covert Rain]

After all the discussion about Lee, I believe he'd make a great Odom type impact on a contender. In fact, Lee replacing Frye on the current Suns team may have given us the edge to beat the Lakers, with his rebounding and all-around smarts. But Lee replacing Amare on the same team makes us at most a 2nd-round-exit team.

+1

 

[joshstmarie]

After all the discussion about Lee, I believe he'd make a great Odom type impact on a contender. In fact, Lee replacing Frye on the current Suns team may have given us the edge to beat the Lakers, with his rebounding and all-around smarts. But Lee replacing Amare on the same team makes us at most a 2nd-round-exit team.

Care to indulge with an actual response or just.. "LEE IZ 4th FIDDLE".

Ive already given an example of what the suns can and HAVE done w/o amare.

Is Lee better than Amare? Debatable.

Is Lee/Frye/"Insert FA shooter" better than Amare? Absolutely.

 

[joshstmarie]

^^^ Nice Montage. So was Channing Frye's. Dont really tell us a whole lot.

Dont play dumb. If I put up a youtube video of amare the only thing it would be is jumpshots and dunks and thats about all he does.

 

[Covert Rain]

Is Lee better than Amare? Debatable.

Not debatable. Lee is not. He rebounds better. He passes OK but it's not Amare's job to distribute on this team.

Is Lee/Frye/"Insert FA shooter" better than Amare? Absolutely.

That would be one of the softest starting front lines in the NBA even with Lopez. Not to mention that the Suns will do what they always do. The will play Lopez for a few minutes, switch Lee to Center and slide Frye over at PF. You might as well let teams have a layup drill in the middle. No thanks.

Everything about that lineup says worse to me.

P.S. I had NBA league pass this year and watched Lee plenty with my buddy who is a Knicks fan. It's his team and he thinks Lee is way overrated and will probably cost the Knicks too much to keep him.

 

[joshstmarie]

Not debatable. Lee is not. He rebounds better. He passes OK but it's not Amare's job to distribute on this team.

Hey If you like to see amare charge into triple teams more power to ya. Id rather have the Tim Duncan, Kevin Love, Kevin Garnets that can find an open man, especially in our offense.

That would be one of the softest starting front lines in the NBA even with Lopez.

Soft is Under 5 rebounds a game during a western conference playoff run, not a dude that had more double doubles than dwight howard last year and was 4th this year.

Not to mention that the Suns will do what they always do. The will play Lopez for a few minutes, switch Lee to Center and slide Frye over at PF. You might as well let teams have a layup drill in the middle. No thanks.

So whats going to be different? At least Lee will rebound. That makes us better defensively already.

Everything about that lineup says worse to me.

Everything about amare making super max money, frye/Lou leaving screams 20x times worse to me.

 

[SirStefan32]

Is Lee better than Amare? Debatable.

Well, that is NOT debatable. Amare is a better overall player than Lee. Amare just may be the best offensive big man in basketball. He is an amazing pick and roll player and has one of the nicest jumpers.

Having said that, I agree with you that Lee at $12M is better than Amare at $20M+. I would also LOVE to see what lee could do on a good team, especially with Nash running the show.

If given a choice between Amare at $20M+ or Lee at $12M, I'll take Lee any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

Another thing to mention is that Lee is not as bad defensively when he is playing 4.