Playoffs 2010: Western Conf Finals, Game 6 – Lakers At Suns Game Thread

[Bufalay]

yeah he was. Suns fans, Laker fans and even TNT announcers were DESTROYING his defense throughout the series. Or do you think it's just a coincidence that he caught SOOOOO much crap for his play after Games 1 and 2? Dude looked like he all but quit during the first two games of the series.

He looked bad in game 2. He looked fine when they played the zone and when they played man in game 6.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Frye played horrible defense in the first game but after that he played better and at times much better. Amare was a disappointment on defense in every game. And Frye's defense in the "disputed" game 6 was MUCH better than Amare's and it wasn't just the rebounding difference.

Steve

 

[Covert Rain]

Meanwhile, Amare was just as awful defensively AND didn't rebound. What does that make him?

I don't agree with that in terms of the entire series. He didn't do it consistently for sure. What does that make him? Someone who got outplayed in the series. Someone who like throughout his entire career doesn't play consistent defense or rebound on a consistent basis. You know...Amare.

However, I was not referring to Amare anyway.

We are talking about Frye who was one of the worst defenders in the entire series IMO.

 

[Chaplin]

The zone worked. A zone cannot work unless everyone in the zone was doing what they were supposed to do.

 

[AzStevenCal]

We are talking about Frye who was one of the worst defenders in the entire series IMO.

Well, I guess it's all a matter of perspective. Once we got past the first two games I thought Frye played some of the best defense of his short-lived Suns career. I'm not saying he wasn't occasionally beaten (he was) but by and large I thought he defended pretty well.

Steve

 

[Covert Rain]

Well, I guess it's all a matter of perspective. Once we got past the first two games I thought Frye played some of the best defense of his short-lived Suns career. I'm not saying he wasn't occasionally beaten (he was) but by and large I thought he defended pretty well.

Steve

I guess so because everytime I think of his face I see Gasol shooting over him, Bynum backing him down and Odom going around him. I just remember screaming at him on both ends to make a shot or at least play some freaking "D". I could have lived with him missing shots if he played some good "D".

 

[joshstmarie]

I don't agree with that in terms of the entire series. He didn't do it consistently for sure. What does that make him? Someone who got outplayed in the series. Someone who like throughout his entire career doesn't play consistent defense or rebound on a consistent basis. You know...Amare.

However, I was not referring to Amare anyway.

We are talking about Frye who was one of the worst defenders in the entire series IMO.

No we werent talking about frye YOU were talking about frye. We were talking about how David Lee would be a defensive upgrade over Amare just by rebounding the ball. Then you started pointing fingers in every which direction like you do with every argument.

 

[Covert Rain]

No we werent talking about frye YOU were talking about frye. We were talking about how David Lee would be a defensive upgrade over Amare just by rebounding the ball. Then you started pointing fingers in every which direction like you do with every argument.

Dude...are you on your meds? If not, please go back on them. Look at the previous posts leading up to yours. I brought up Frye as an example and others responded. My comments were specific to that ongoing discussion.

Dude get over your Amare hate...it's obviously impacting your ability to comprehend. The David Lee discussion was over with and the last time his name was mentioned was 2 days ago. Sheesh.

 

[joshstmarie]

Dude...are you on your meds? If not, please go back on them. Look at the previous posts leading up to yours. I brought up Frye as an example and others responded. My comments were specific to that ongoing discussion.

Dude get over your Amare hate...it's obviously impacting your ability to comprehend. The David Lee discussion was over with and the last time his name was mentioned was 2 days ago. Sheesh.

Obviously the David Lee conversation isnt over because thats what this entire discussion is stemming off of. I said david lee would be better defensively just by his rebounding. You argued against that and said blah blah blah fryes defense is horrible and he rebounded well. Then I showed you the +/- ect ect.

 

[cly2tw]

Well, I guess it's all a matter of perspective. Once we got past the first two games I thought Frye played some of the best defense of his short-lived Suns career. I'm not saying he wasn't occasionally beaten (he was) but by and large I thought he defended pretty well.

Steve

His confidence problem got into his defense as evidenced in the incredible "giving up on blowed Fisher fast break layup miss and get rebound-dunked by Odom" incident. We played our zone primarily because of him, it worked with him as the anchor. And as someone said, for zone to work, everybody has to do their parts. So, not only Frye but particularly Amare did their parts, bad rebounding numbers notwithstanding. When Frye bolts for FA, we need a true center to help Lopez man the 5 next to Amare and thus won't need zone as much.

 

[Covert Rain]

Obviously the David Lee conversation isnt over because thats what this entire discussion is stemming off of. I said david lee would be better defensively just by his rebounding. You argued against that and said blah blah blah fryes defense is horrible and he rebounded well. Then I showed you the +/- ect ect.

Frye was an example stemming from the comment someone above made saying that defensive rebounding meant good defense. The topic was good defense not directly about David Lee. I simply brought up Frye's rebounding had nothing to do with how piss poor his defensive was in that series. This statement was not directed at your boy David Lee. I have said it many times, the Suns cannot replace Amare with a piss poor defender. That applies to several suggestions made. Does David Lee fit that description? Yes....now we are back to David Lee.

 

[joshstmarie]

Frye was an example stemming from the comment someone above made saying that defensive rebounding meant good defense. The topic was good defense not directly about David Lee. I simply brought up Frye's rebounding had nothing to do with how piss poor his defensive was in that series. This statement was not directed at your boy David Lee. I have said it many times, the Suns cannot replace Amare with a piss poor defender. That applies to several suggestions made. Does David Lee fit that description? Yes....now we are back to David Lee.

I honestly cant believe how delusional you are.

Since you cant seem to manage to figure out how to read previous pages in a thread I will go ahead and lay out how the conversation flow went.

Me - ***MAIN TOPIC HERE*** Lee's rebounding alone will make him better defensively than Amare.

You - "since when does rebounding = defense?"

Sunsfan69 - Basically had to explain to you with pretty colors and drawings how rebounding improves defense.

You - Continue to use channing frye as an example of someone who rebounds but has horrible defense.

Me - well the last two games that Frye had double digit rebounds his +/- was +10 while Amares was -3.

others - Chime in about how terrible Amares defense is if youre calling fryes bad.

You - But I wasnt talking about amare I was talking about frye

Me- No actually YOU AND I were talking about Lee's rebounding making him a better defender than Amare. You just decided to use the worst example ever with frye.

Then you started telling me to take meds ect ect.

 

[Covert Rain]

Me- No actually YOU AND I were talking about Lee's rebounding making him a better defender than Amare. You just decided to use the worst example ever with frye.

Thanks for that useless recap. Now your telling me what I meant in my posts? YOU WERE talking about Lee. Let me break it down for you now.

I was referring to this actual statement by you:

Soft is Under 5 rebounds a game during a western conference playoff run, not a dude that had more double doubles than dwight howard last year and was 4th this year.

You were calling Amare soft. I remembered from the PREVIOUS conversation that your stance was rebounding equals better defense.

My response:

Not soft just terrible. Since when does rebounding equal defense? Frye had over 10 rebounds one game but was one of the worst defenders on the floor. Your mistaking one for the other.

Who cares if you get 12 rebounds when your probably give up 15 to 20 points thanks to bad defense.

The topic had already moved on from Lee. Maybe you were stuck on Lee but I was not. Nowhere did I mention Lee's name. I was simply responding to the theory that rebounding equals defense. If a player gets 10 rebounds but gives up bunch of points on defense...how is that not a good example? Frye fits that description.

Suns_fan69 continued the discussion about rebounding. I then responded to that email.

You might have thought I was talking about Lee but don't tell me what I was talking about or responding to. If I was specifically referring to Lee I would have used his name. AGAIN.. the topic moved on to defense and rebounding.

You are a Lee homer thinking every comment made is about Lee. Get over it. Don't be so sensitive about your boy. When I am referring to Lee I will make sure I underline and bold his name just so you understand. It's almost as if once you drop Lees name in a thread by default every post thereafter must be related to LEE.

So one more time....let me make this clear for you. I am talking about rebounding equaling defense in general. I am telling you what I am referring to. You can either accept that or continue on your delusional journey to Lee town.

 

[joshstmarie]

Thanks for that useless recap. Now your telling me what I meant in my posts? YOU WERE talking about Lee. Let me break it down for you now.

I was referring to this actual statement by you:



You were calling Amare soft. I remembered from the PREVIOUS conversation that you stance was rebounding equals better defense.

My response:

Not soft just terrible. Since when does rebounding equal defense? Frye had over 10 rebounds one game but was one of the worst defenders on the floor. Your mistaking one for the other.

Who cares if you get 12 rebounds when your probably give up 15 to 20 points thanks to bad defense.

The topic had already moved on from Lee. Maybe you were stuck on Lee but I was not. Nowhere did I mention Lee's name. I was simply responding to the theory that rebounding equals defense. If a player gets 10 rebounds but gives up bunch of points on defense...how is that not a good example? Frye fits that description.

Suns_fan69 continued the discussion about rebounding. I then responded to that email.

You might have thought I was talking about Lee but don't tell me what I was talking about or responding to. If I was specifically referring to Lee I would have used his name. AGAIN.. the topic moved on to defense and rebounding.

Your a Lee homer thinking every comment made is about Lee. Get over it. Don't be so sensitive about your boy. When I am referring to Lee I will make sure I underline and bold his name just so you understand. It's almost as if once you drop Lees name in a thread by default every post thereafter must be related to LEE.

So one more time....let me make this clear for you. I am talking about rebounding equaling defense in general. I am telling you what I am referring to. You can either accept that or continue on your delusional journey to Lee town.

THE WHOLE DISCUSSION WAS BASED ON LEE dude. you just ran off on a million other topics running in circles like you always do. THE CORRELATION WAS THAT REBOUNDING = DEFENSE and you tried to disprove it with FRYE/REBOUNDING = NO DEFENSE. You just threw a name out there that sounded good (or BAD in this case) and hoped it stuck but it backed fired in your face.

I dont give a crap if you like David Lee or not but calling him "soft" and "terrible" is utterly ridiculous. And you cant even put up an explanation why besides "HIS DEFENSE IS TEH SUX AND HES OK PASSER" and then calling me names like a 12 y/o.

 

[Covert Rain]

THE WHOLE DISCUSSION WAS BASED ON LEE dude. you just ran off on a million other topics running in circles like you always do. THE CORRELATION WAS THAT REBOUNDING = DEFENSE and you tried to disprove it with FRYE/REBOUNDING = NO DEFENSE. You just threw a name out there that sounded good (or BAD in this case) and hoped it stuck but it backed fired in your face.

I dont give a crap if you like David Lee or not but calling him "soft" and "terrible" is utterly ridiculous. And you cant even put up an explanation why besides "HIS DEFENSE IS TEH SUX AND HES OK PASSER" and then calling me names like a 12 y/o.

Oh dear lord you are pathetic. You must be in my head. You are right you know better then I do what my thoughts were. Your like a dog pissing at a park. Once you pee on it you think the entire park belongs to you (we were not on the Lee topic but because you posted about Lee we must be). The previous discussion was about Lee. The current one was around rebounding and defense. PERIOD.

Also what backfired? You have not disproven a thing I have said nor can you. Frye is a poopy defender. I have heard nobody on this thread defend that but you. NOBODY.

P.S. I have posted Lee's defensive numbers on another thread. Look em up. The Knicks have one of the worst defending front lines in basketball. Lee has one of the worst defensive PERS in basketball.

I will tell you what. You continue talking about Lee with yourself while the rest of us move on to something else.

 

[Suns_fan69]

Also what backfired? You have not disproven a thing I have said nor can you. Frye is a poopy defender. I have heard nobody on this thread defend that but you. NOBODY.

Not that I'm picking sides here but I actually thought Frye played more consistent defense than Amare did as a whole throughout the playoffs. Granted, this is looking back after a couple weeks but I thought Channing competed much more aggressively on the defensive end than Amare did.

Also, Lee may have a terrible defensive PER but I have to think the system had something to do with it. Without looking it up I'm guessing Amare's D'antoni defensive PER is much worse than his Porter or Gentry defensive PER.

 

[cly2tw]

Not that I'm picking sides here but I actually thought Frye played more consistent defense than Amare did as a whole throughout the playoffs. Granted, this is looking back after a couple weeks but I thought Channing competed much more aggressively on the defensive end than Amare did.

Also, Lee may have a terrible defensive PER but I have to think the system had something to do with it. Without looking it up I'm guessing Amare's D'antoni defensive PER is much worse than his Porter or Gentry defensive PER.

Frye gave his effort on defense, aside from the first two games in WCF where his confidence was shot that affected his defense too. He appeared more important as we used a lot of zone with him as the anchor and Amare on the perimeter. However, we did miss the strength a healthy Lopez brought to our defense before his back problem, which made things a lot of easier for Amare. BTW, I recall someone had the stats that Amare's defense on PF are a lot better than his on Cs over his career.

 

[joshstmarie]

(we were not on the Lee topic but because you posted about Lee we must be). The previous discussion was about Lee. The current one was around rebounding and defense. PERIOD.

Also what backfired? You have not disproven a thing I have said nor can you. Frye is a poopy defender. I have heard nobody on this thread defend that but you. NOBODY.

P.S. I have posted Lee's defensive numbers on another thread. Look em up. The Knicks have one of the worst defending front lines in basketball. Lee has one of the worst defensive PERS in basketball.

I will tell you what. You continue talking about Lee with yourself while the rest of us move on to something else.

Yes Im well aware of what the topic was about, I started it. It was about HOW DAVID LEE would make the suns a better team defensively by his rebounding alone. Im glad we can agree.
You cant comprehend how rebounding translates into defense as you tried to slide channing frye into the conversation, who coincidentally was just comming off two double digit rebounding games and what do ya know? He has a +/- of +10, while say ohhhhhhhh for instance Amare Stoudemire had two crappy rebounding games(par) and had a -3 for those same exact two games.

Im not saying that frye is a good defender you guy, Im telling you HIS REBOUNDING has ALOT to do with his +/- which in turn tells the story that his rebounding impacts his defense as seen by the +/-.

P.S. Your defensive PERS are a joke, a combination Dantoni, Gallinari, Harrington and Jared Jeffries, meanwhile playing out of position. Nice try.. I guess.

 

[Covert Rain]

Yes Im well aware of what the topic was about, I started it. It was about HOW DAVID LEE would make the suns a better team defensively by his rebounding alone. Im glad we can agree.

Actually if you want to get technical the topic was Game 6. Not about Lee. Later after much discussion about the game you went on a tangent about Lee. Funny how you "slid" that into the conversation and that is OK.

Isn't it Amazing how that works? You can start a topic and talk about related things that have to do with the original topic. Ohhhh...for instance....lets say like you going on about Lee and it sparks another conversation about rebounding and defense.

Funny how that works right?

P.S. We don't agree. Because I have not addressed Lee directly let me do that for you......IMO the Suns would be worse defensively with Lee then Amare. I could be wrong but that is my opinion.

You cant comprehend how rebounding translates into defense as you tried to slide channing frye into the conversation, who coincidentally was just comming off two double digit rebounding games and what do ya know? He has a +/- of +10, while say ohhhhhhhh for instance Amare Stoudemire had two crappy rebounding games(par) and had a -3 for those same exact two games.

I can't comprehend because you are wrong. Rebounding ALONE <--spelling it out for you--- doesn't alone determine good defense. It's more then that. That is something you can't comprehend. Is defensive rebounding a contribution to defense...YES.

Is that clear enough for you?

Example 1
Frye is one example. I am not just saying this series. Frye has had OK rebounding games before where he stunk it up on the guy he was guarding. Frye has had good rebounding games in which we gave up well over 100+ points. Amare has even had OK defensive rebounding nights where the Suns still gave up 100+.

Clearly there are examples of guys having good defensive rebounding nights across the league but the team still stunk it up defensively giving up 100+.

Again...just so we are clear....is it a factor? Yes. Does it alone translate into good defense....No.

Example 2
Maybe not this year but KG was considered one of the best defenders in the league. He averages 8.3 defensive RPG over his career. It's not like he is grabbing 15 a night. What makes KG a great defender are the other things he does against guys he is guarding IN ADDITION to defensive rebounding. On the flip side KG has had plenty of bad defensive rebounding games and their team played great defense and so did he.

I found more examples of good defenders not tearing it up on the defensive boards. If you like I can post them as well.

Example #3
Charles Barkley averaged 7.7 defensive rebounds per game. Charles Barkley will be the first to tell you he wasn't a very good defender.

Barkley isn't the only example of guys that were considered good rebounders but not good defenders.

P.S. Your defensive PERS are a joke, a combination Dantoni, Gallinari, Harrington and Jared Jeffries, meanwhile playing out of position. Nice try.. I guess.

What? So....let me get this straight...you are invalidating defensive PER because the Knicks play guys out of position? Oh...you mean like the Suns do every night as well? You mean like almost all teams do nowadays for stretches? None of that matters anyways.

Nice try but you can look up defensive PER by position played and it's not good when he is playing his natural position either.

Seriously you trying to tell me what I was responding to is ridiculously hilarious. I am telling you for the last time I wasn't referring to Lee specifically. I was talking in general terms about rebounding and defense.

I can't make it anymore clear then that. If you choose to believe otherwise...great...your prerogative...your own world. I can only tell you what I was referring to and what I meant.

I am not trying to tell you what you meant. I can't understand why you insist on telling me what I meant.

 

[mojorizen7]

Longest game thread ever

 

[AzStevenCal]

Longest game thread ever

LOL. Oh yeah, game thread, I remember that one. I just thought it was a double feature. Out of curiousity are they talking about Christopher Lee and Soleil Moon Frye?

Steve

 

[Covert Rain]

Soleil Moon Frye?

Steve

Does Soleil Moon Frye still have big hooters? Then yes...I am talking about her.

 

[joshstmarie]

Actually if you want to get technical the topic was Game 6. Not about Lee.

Nice cop out.

Isn't it Amazing how that works? You can start a topic and talk about related things that have to do with the original topic. Ohhhh...for instance....lets say like you going on about Lee and it sparks another conversation about rebounding and defense.

It didnt "spark" another topic as I was the one that brought it up in the first place. Therefore the current subject that you were responding to was DIRECTLY OR INDIRECTLY associated with my post.

P.S. We don't agree. Because I have not addressed Lee directly let me do that for you......IMO the Suns would be worse defensively with Lee then Amare. I could be wrong but that is my opinion.

Actually youve said this about 20 times already.

I can't comprehend because you are wrong. Rebounding ALONE <--spelling it out for you--- doesn't alone determine good defense. It's more then that. That is something you can't comprehend. Is defensive rebounding a contribution to defense...YES.

Is that clear enough for you?

You are wack. No one said rebounding ALONE = defense, and if that thought ever crossed your mind that I might be implying that, youre dumber than I thought.

Example 1
Frye is one example. I am not just saying this series. Frye has had OK rebounding games before where he stunk it up on the guy he was guarding. Frye has had good rebounding games in which we gave up well over 100+ points. Amare has even had OK defensive rebounding nights where the Suns still gave up 100+.

Clearly there are examples of guys having good defensive rebounding nights across the league but the team still stunk it up defensively giving up 100+.

Again...just so we are clear....is it a factor? Yes. Does it alone translate into good defense....No.

Cool, thanks for saying the same exact thing as you did one paragraph up. For Ships and giggles I will repeat myself as well. No one said rebounding is the main sole ingredient for defense.

Example 2
Maybe not this year but KG was considered one of the best defenders in the league. He averages 8.3 defensive RPG over his career. It's not like he is grabbing 15 a night. What makes KG a great defender are the other things he does against guys he is guarding IN ADDITION to defensive rebounding. On the flip side KG has had plenty of bad defensive rebounding games and their team played great defense and so did he.

I found more examples of good defenders not tearing it up on the defensive boards. If you like I can post them as well.

No one said rebounding is the main sole ingredient for defense.

Example #3
Charles Barkley averaged 7.7 defensive rebounds per game. Charles Barkley will be the first to tell you he wasn't a very good defender.

Barkley isn't the only example of guys that were considered good rebounders but not good defenders.

Ok? And if he were to grab, say half those DRPG he'd be a whole LOT worse on the defensive end.

Im glad we can agree that that rebounding isnt the end all be all in defense. Although we never disagreed in that department in the first place, you just kinda made that up out of thin air.

What? So....let me get this straight...you are invalidating defensive PER because the Knicks play guys out of position? Oh...you mean like the Suns do every night as well? You mean like almost all teams do nowadays for stretches? None of that matters anyways.

Key word -STRETCHES- Lee is playing 35 MPG at center while surrounded by the defensive gems in Gallanari, Harrington and Jared Jeffries.

Nice try but you can look up defensive PER by position played and it's not good when he is playing his natural position either.

I never said Lee was a defensive juggernaut. Im simply saying that glancing at the roster should tell you the side of the story that the PERS wont. I guess you dont get that. Continue on with your stupid act.

Seriously you trying to tell me what I was responding to is ridiculously hilarious. I am telling you for the last time I wasn't referring to Lee specifically. I was talking in general terms about rebounding and defense.

I can't make it anymore clear then that. If you choose to believe otherwise...great...your prerogative...your own world. I can only tell you what I was referring to and what I meant.

I am not trying to tell you what you meant. I can't understand why you insist on telling me what I meant.

So does rebounding make you better defensively or not?

 

[Covert Rain]

Nice cop out. It didnt "spark" another topic as I was the one that brought it up in the first place. Therefore the current subject that you were responding to was DIRECTLY OR INDIRECTLY associated with my post.

How is it a cop out? It's the truth. Thread was not about Lee. You brought him up. Do you even know what your talking about half the time?

Actually youve said this about 20 times already.

Obviously not enough because you still don't comprehend.

You are wack. No one said rebounding ALONE = defense, and if that thought ever crossed your mind that I might be implying that, youre dumber than I thought.

You said rebounding would already make us better defensively. So that is what you said.

I never said Lee was a defensive juggernaut. Im simply saying that glancing at the roster should tell you the side of the story that the PERS wont. I guess you dont get that. Continue on with your stupid act.

The PERS are fine.

So does rebounding make you better defensively or not?

It depends. If your horrid on guarding your man anything that you might gain by rebounding goes out the door. It would be the equivalent of Nash negating his assists with a bunch of turnovers.

The rest of your post was to laughable to even respond to.

 

[cly2tw]

I remember Cebalos as an excellent rebounder but an atrocious defender. And despite low rebounding numbers, you can't say Robin Lopez is a bad defender. Or maybe it's just my imagination?