Playoffs 2010: Western Conf Finals, Game 6 – Lakers At Suns Game Thread

[SirStefan32]

Hey If you like to see amare charge into triple teams more power to ya. Id rather have the Tim Duncan, Kevin Love, Kevin Garnets that can find an open man, especially in our offense.




Soft is Under 5 rebounds a game during a western conference playoff run, not a dude that had more double doubles than dwight howard last year and was 4th this year.




So whats going to be different? At least Lee will rebound. That makes us better defensively already.




Everything about amare making super max money, frye/Lou leaving screams 20x times worse to me.

I agree with you about everything, but Lou and Fry are probably gone either way. They need playing time for Clark, and with Hill and Dudley taking all the minutes at small forward, the only way Clark is getting any PT is if Lou is not there to back up the power forward.
As far as Frye goes, I am pretty sure somebody will give him $5M per season, which is really too much for the Suns.

At BEST, Suns will only be able to keep one of those guys.

 

[joshstmarie]

Well, that is NOT debatable. Amare is a better overall player than Lee. Amare just may be the best offensive big man in basketball.

How is that not debatable?

Lee is clearly a better all around player. Amare is a better scorer.

 

[joshstmarie]

I agree with you about everything, but Lou and Fry are probably gone either way. They need playing time for Clark, and with Hill and Dudley taking all the minutes at small forward, the only way Clark is getting any PT is if Lou is not there to back up the power forward.
As far as Frye goes, I am pretty sure somebody will give him $5M per season, which is really too much for the Suns.

At BEST, Suns will only be able to keep one of those guys.

I think the suns can resign frye if they trade barbosa which is a very good possibility. Like I stated earlier as much as you hate the dude sometimes hes a VERY big part of our offense. Not just from a shooting standpoint but also his ability to draw the oppositions big man out.

Find me a HIGH IQ shooter to replace barbs on the cheap and I think we are sitting pretty.

Nash - Dragic
JRich - "Insert FA"
Hill - Dudley
Lee - EC/Frye
Lopez - Frye

 

[Covert Rain]

Soft is Under 5 rebounds a game during a western conference playoff run, not a dude that had more double doubles than dwight howard last year and was 4th this year.

Not soft just terrible. Since when does rebounding equal defense? Frye had over 10 rebounds one game but was one of the worst defenders on the floor. Your mistaking one for the other.

Who cares if you get 12 rebounds when your probably give up 15 to 20 points thanks to bad defense.

Everything about amare making super max money, frye/Lou leaving screams 20x times worse to me.

Come and tell me that when the Suns end up leading the league in points given up in the paint and finish even worse in PPG given up too.

 

[cly2tw]

joshst and stefan,

Lee at 12m is better Amare at 20m, but for what purpose? Give me any team with Lee as the 2nd scoring option and you could consider it a contender, like the Suns, at least in hindsight, proved they were this season. I believe the following team under Gentry is a contender again next year, and even better than this year, assuming everybody healthy. Let's trade LB to Kings for Garcia who is not really needed there like LB here. Let Frye walk. Keep Lou at 2.5mil. Sign JOneal up to the MLE. Sign a FA PG.

Amare/Lopez/Hill/JRich/Nash with bench JO/Lou/Clark/Dud/Dragic/Garcia/FA

Give me a team assuming Amare walks, as if you were Kerr, with sensible and feasible trades and FA signings. You could start with the unlikely sign-and-trade of Amare to NY for Lee + anybody there. Let's debate whether your teams were better than mine.

 

[Chaplin]

Hey If you like to see amare charge into triple teams more power to ya. Id rather have the Tim Duncan, Kevin Love, Kevin Garnets that can find an open man, especially in our offense.

Um, you do realize that while Amare has to worry about double- and triple-teams, David Lee does not.

Soft is Under 5 rebounds a game during a western conference playoff run, not a dude that had more double doubles than dwight howard last year and was 4th this year.

On the KNICKS. In the east.

Your hatred of Amare is blinding you -- you see nothing but bad from Amare and nothing but good from Lee.

 

[SirStefan32]

Um, you do realize that while Amare has to worry about double- and triple-teams, David Lee does not.



On the KNICKS. In the east.

Your hatred of Amare is blinding you -- you see nothing but bad from Amare and nothing but good from Lee.

While there is no question that joshstmarie is a huge Lee homer, 20 points and 12 rebounds per game is impressive. 52 and 65 double doubles in the last two seasons is impressive. If you look at Points+ rebounds+ assists stats or efficiency stats, Lee keeps coming up as the top Center. Now, don't get me wrong, I know Lee is no Stoudemire or Howard, or anything of the sort, but you are underrating Lee just as much as joshstmarie is overrating him.

He is a solid player, that's for sure.

 

[Chaplin]

While there is no question that joshstmarie is a huge Lee homer, 20 points and 12 rebounds per game is impressive. 52 and 65 double doubles in the last two seasons is impressive. If you look at Points+ rebounds+ assists stats or efficiency stats, Lee keeps coming up as the top Center. Now, don't get me wrong, I know Lee is no Stoudemire or Howard, or anything of the sort, but you are underrating Lee just as much as joshstmarie is overrating him.

He is a solid player, that's for sure.

How is saying that Amare is a better player than Lee underrating him? I think that's a no-brainer. It certainly is around the NBA.

I do like David Lee, but he's nowhere near the 2nd coming of Charles Barkley.

 

[elindholm]

Out of curiosity, I checked the last four head-to-head matchups of the Knicks and Suns.

(The Suns had O'Neal in the '08-'09 meetings.)

12/15/08: @PHO 111, NYK 103
Stoudemire: 21 pts, 14 reb, 2 ast, 0 stl, 1 blk, 2 to
Lee: 15 pts, 12 reb, 0 ast, 2 stl, 1 blk, 1 to

1/21/09: @NYK 114, PHO 109
Stoudemire: 20 pts, 4 reb, 3 ast, 0 stl, 0 blk, 1 to
Lee: 25 pts, 16 reb, 1 ast, 1 stl, 0 blk, 1 to

12/1/09: @NYK 126, PHO 99
Stoudemire: 14 pts, 5 reb, 2 ast, 0 stl, 1 blk, 5 to
Lee: 24 pts, 8 reb, 2 ast, 4 stl, 0 blk, 1 to

3/26/10: @PHO 132, NYK 96
Stoudemire: 18 pts, 9 reb, 3 ast, 0 stl, 0 blk, 1 to
Lee: 21 pts, 13 reb, 2 ast, 2 stl, 0 blk, 4 to

averages:
Stoudemire 18.3 pts, 8.0 reb, 2.5 ast, 0 stl, 0.5 blk, 2.3 to
Lee 21.3 pts, 12.3 reb, 1.3 ast, 2.3 stl, 0.3 blk, 1.8 to

Both games in '09-'10 were blowouts, which skews the numbers; Lee played quite a bit more minutes in both games. Lee fouled out in the close loss on 12/15/08. But it's safe to say that Stoudemire has not dominated Lee in their four most recent matchups. Not only are his numbers inferior, but the Suns have managed only to split the four games. One could argue that Lee's statistical advantage over Stoudemire made the difference in the close Knicks win on 1/21/09.

 

[SirStefan32]

joshst and stefan,

Lee at 12m is better Amare at 20m, but for what purpose? Give me any team with Lee as the 2nd scoring option and you could consider it a contender, like the Suns, at least in hindsight, proved they were this season. I believe the following team under Gentry is a contender again next year, and even better than this year, assuming everybody healthy. Let's trade LB to Kings for Garcia who is not really needed there like LB here. Let Frye walk. Keep Lou at 2.5mil. Sign JOneal up to the MLE. Sign a FA PG.

Amare/Lopez/Hill/JRich/Nash with bench JO/Lou/Clark/Dud/Dragic/Garcia/FA

Give me a team assuming Amare walks, as if you were Kerr, with sensible and feasible trades and FA signings. You could start with the unlikely sign-and-trade of Amare to NY for Lee + anybody there. Let's debate whether your teams were better than mine.

Ok, first of all, if you sign Amare to the MAX, you will not be signing anybody with your mid level exemption. If you sign Amare to the max, you are financially crippled for the duration of his contract. That is why you DON'T sign Amare to anything over $15M-$17M per year, and some would argue that's too high a price too.
Now, having said that, if Sarver said, "Go ahead and use the mid level exemption" you would sign Jermaine O'Neal? Seriously? Jermain Freaking O'Neal? I hear Tom Googliota is available, let's sign him too.
Garcia? Why?

Without looking at FA list and carefully considering trades, you can have David Lee and Drew Gooden for less money than Amare, for example.

I mean, don't get me wrong man, Amare is better than Lee, but you just can not give Amare $20M+ per year.

 

[cly2tw]

Ok, first of all, if you sign Amare to the MAX, you will not be signing anybody with your mid level exemption. If you sign Amare to the max, you are financially crippled for the duration of his contract. That is why you DON'T sign Amare to anything over $15M-$17M per year, and some would argue that's too high a price too.
Now, having said that, if Sarver said, "Go ahead and use the mid level exemption" you would sign Jermaine O'Neal? Seriously? Jermain Freaking O'Neal? I hear Tom Googliota is available, let's sign him too.
Garcia? Why?

Without looking at FA list and carefully considering trades, you can have David Lee and Drew Gooden for less money than Amare, for example.

I mean, don't get me wrong man, Amare is better than Lee, but you just can not give Amare $20M+ per year.

JO is just an example. You could replace him with Amir Johnson, Gooden, Ratliff, and who else could play true center. As with Garcia. I'd have no problem with Bass+Redick for LB.

Let's take your Lee+Gooden in place of Amare. Add on another MLE level player of your choice. Let us see your lineup and convince us you believe that lineup is better than this year's or my hypothetical above. I wonder when people will realize that just adding up stats is only good for fantasy league.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I wonder when people will realize that just adding up stats is only good for fantasy league.

Probably never. We're not very bright.

Steve

 

[AfroSuns]

Out of curiosity, I checked the last four head-to-head matchups of the Knicks and Suns.

(The Suns had O'Neal in the '08-'09 meetings.)

12/15/08: @PHO 111, NYK 103
Stoudemire: 21 pts, 14 reb, 2 ast, 0 stl, 1 blk, 2 to
Lee: 15 pts, 12 reb, 0 ast, 2 stl, 1 blk, 1 to

1/21/09: @NYK 114, PHO 109
Stoudemire: 20 pts, 4 reb, 3 ast, 0 stl, 0 blk, 1 to
Lee: 25 pts, 16 reb, 1 ast, 1 stl, 0 blk, 1 to

12/1/09: @NYK 126, PHO 99
Stoudemire: 14 pts, 5 reb, 2 ast, 0 stl, 1 blk, 5 to
Lee: 24 pts, 8 reb, 2 ast, 4 stl, 0 blk, 1 to

3/26/10: @PHO 132, NYK 96
Stoudemire: 18 pts, 9 reb, 3 ast, 0 stl, 0 blk, 1 to
Lee: 21 pts, 13 reb, 2 ast, 2 stl, 0 blk, 4 to

averages:
Stoudemire 18.3 pts, 8.0 reb, 2.5 ast, 0 stl, 0.5 blk, 2.3 to
Lee 21.3 pts, 12.3 reb, 1.3 ast, 2.3 stl, 0.3 blk, 1.8 to

Both games in '09-'10 were blowouts, which skews the numbers; Lee played quite a bit more minutes in both games. Lee fouled out in the close loss on 12/15/08. But it's safe to say that Stoudemire has not dominated Lee in their four most recent matchups. Not only are his numbers inferior, but the Suns have managed only to split the four games. One could argue that Lee's statistical advantage over Stoudemire made the difference in the close Knicks win on 1/21/09.

I would actually like to see more stats, like FGA, mins played. Why i said this is because the last time we played the knicks and blew them out. Amare did not play in the garbage time and Lee played almost the whole 4th dominating the scrubs. And i am almost sure Amare didnt play in te 4th Q when they ran us out of the gym in NYC too but Lee played. Did they go to Lee more than they went to Stoudemire for offense?
Lee will always be a better rebounder than Amare, no question about that.

i guess one cant really argue against Lee at 12m Vs Stoudemire at 20m especially with the knee and it is almost certain that if Amare demands 20m there is no way he gets it here, but i will take Amare at 15m-17m over Lee.

 

[joshstmarie]

Hey I already said I was A Lee homer so none of that name calling!!

Signing Amare for the supermax is stupid. I think we can all agree on that (I hope).
Whether you believe David Lee, Brandon Bass or Darko Milicic is the answer we cannot feasibly compete keeping Amare at the cheddar hes looking for because that means we lose Lou/Frye and any ability we have to replace those guys.

 

[cly2tw]

I would actually like to see more stats, like FGA, mins played. Why i said this is because the last time we played the knicks and blew them out. Amare did not play in the garbage time and Lee played almost the whole 4th dominating the scrubs. And i am almost sure Amare didnt play in te 4th Q when they ran us out of the gym in NYC too but Lee played. Did they go to Lee more than they went to Stoudemire for offense?
Lee will always be a better rebounder than Amare, no question about that.

i guess one cant really argue against Lee at 12m Vs Stoudemire at 20m especially with the knee and it is almost certain that if Amare demands 20m there is no way he gets it here, but i will take Amare at 15m-17m over Lee.

DA knows that the only motivation his players had and would be playing for on that NY team was pepping up stats for the ensuing FA. He rewards those who are not in his dog house as his carrot and stick.

We might be disappointed by Amare not doing better than he did in all the playoffs he played. Players like Lee and Bosh have yet to prove they'd be even half the player Amare has been, despite all the physical setbacks.

 

[Suns_fan69]

Not soft just terrible. Since when does rebounding equal defense? Frye had over 10 rebounds one game but was one of the worst defenders on the floor. Your mistaking one for the other.

What is the objective of playing defense?

Stop the other team from scoring.

What does the other team need to score?

The ball.

What does the other team have if you DON'T secure the rebound and they DO?

You guessed it... the ball!


The point is that the defensive possession is NOT over until you have (or your team has) secured the rebound. I'm not saying that it's the be all and end all of defense but it is naive to think that they're not heavily related.

 

[Errntknght]

We might be disappointed by Amare not doing better than he did in all the playoffs he played. Players like Lee and Bosh have yet to prove they'd be even half the player Amare has been, despite all the physical setbacks.

I look at it this way, Amare just proved he's not half the player he used to be in the playoffs. I'll take someone who hasn't proven that over someone who has.

Its not a profitable enterprise debating Lee vs. Amare at length because its so unlikely we'd wind up getting Lee if Amare departs.

I will remind everyone of the historical fact, that every actual or prospective Suns player where there was a strong debate that the salary was more than a player was worth, it has never been the case that the excessive salary was justified by the end result.

If you look down that list of the top salaries, you will also see, that in virtually every case, a player who was given more than he seemed to merit at the time, has not played up to his salary.

I suggest that this is a particularly perilous time to be overpaying someone because of the pending change to the leagues salary structure.

 

[cly2tw]

I look at it this way, Amare just proved he's not half the player he used to be in the playoffs. I'll take someone who hasn't proven that over someone who has.

Its not a profitable enterprise debating Lee vs. Amare at length because its so unlikely we'd wind up getting Lee if Amare departs.

I will remind everyone of the historical fact, that every actual or prospective Suns player where there was a strong debate that the salary was more than a player was worth, it has never been the case that the excessive salary was justified by the end result.

If you look down that list of the top salaries, you will also see, that in virtually every case, a player who was given more than he seemed to merit at the time, has not played up to his salary.

I suggest that this is a particularly perilous time to be overpaying someone because of the pending change to the leagues salary structure.

I don't really know which historical fact you were referring to. I remember we all supported Sarver, for not giving JJ that 50/5 deal. And for most of the bad deals like Marion and Diaw, I remembered we were also OK with the mgt.

As to Amare not half the player, the team played much better with this new version of Amare than any previous one despite Nash aging. I think these Lakers were much stronger than 2007 Spurs. This is a year Amare has beeing adjusting to playing differently. Listen to Nash's comments in this talk with Bill Simons. He seems to really like Amare's improvement, listing the areas. If he could keep those improvements that actually do not help his own stats number but the team's success, we are a better team with a full year's working on things that we need in playoffs. I won't say whether it's worth max to maintain that. The alternative is, we don't even get Lee to replace him.

http://espn.go.com/espnradio/player?rd=1#/podcenter/?id=5246940&callsign=ESPNRADIO&autoplay=1

 

[elindholm]

I will remind everyone of the historical fact, that every actual or prospective Suns player where there was a strong debate that the salary was more than a player was worth, it has never been the case that the excessive salary was justified by the end result.

Nash is an exception to this, but it's a good point anyway.

 

[Covert Rain]

What is the objective of playing defense?

The point is that the defensive possession is NOT over until you have (or your team has) secured the rebound. I'm not saying that it's the be all and end all of defense but it is naive to think that they're not heavily related.

I am not suggesting that it's not related. However, key word..."related". It's only one aspect of defense. I stand by my example of Channing. Dude had 10+ rebounds in that one game but played some of the most horrid defense against whomever he was guarding. Those 10 rebounds were great but he probably gave up at least that many points on the other end if not more.

 

[joshstmarie]

I am not suggesting that it's not related. However, key word..."related". It's only one aspect of defense. I stand by my example of Channing. Dude had 10+ rebounds in that one game but played some of the most horrid defense against whomever he was guarding. Those 10 rebounds were great but he probably gave up at least that many points on the other end if not more.

Thats funny because between the last 2 games channing was +10 while Amare was -3. Wonder if that has anything to do with rebounding? Your example of channing frye is FAIL. Lets see your next excuse. I know you have like 20 more.

 

[Covert Rain]

Thats funny because between the last 2 games channing was +10 while Amare was -3. Wonder if that has anything to do with rebounding? Your example of channing frye is FAIL. Lets see your next excuse. I know you have like 20 more.

What are you talking about? Take a break from your Amare hating to read what I wrote. I was not making excuses for Amare. I never have when it comes to his lack of rebounding.

I was simply stating that Frye was HORRIBLE defensively several times during that series. He gave up points, lets guys drive and committed stupid fouls. None of that says good defense no matter how many rebounds he gets.

Your post? FAIL.

 

[Cheesebeef]

What are you talking about? Take a break from your Amare hating to read what I wrote. I was not making excuses for Amare. I never have when it comes to his lack of rebounding.

I was simply stating that Frye was HORRIBLE defensively several times during that series. He gave up points, lets guys drive and committed stupid fouls. None of that says good defense no matter how many rebounds he gets.

Your post? FAIL.

Meanwhile, Amare was just as awful defensively AND didn't rebound. What does that make him?

 

[Bufalay]

Meanwhile, Amare was just as awful defensively

No he wasn't

 

[Cheesebeef]

No he wasn't

yeah he was. Suns fans, Laker fans and even TNT announcers were DESTROYING his defense throughout the series. Or do you think it's just a coincidence that he caught SOOOOO much crap for his play after Games 1 and 2? Dude looked like he all but quit during the first two games of the series.