Plumlee might be another Mcdonough steal

[Superbone]

They don't have a single legitimate C or PF who's healthy.

That's a ridiculous statement. We're three months from the start of the season.

Gortat, Len, Frye, Markieff (yes, he's legitimate) may all be healthy by the start.

 

[Phrazbit]

Gortat, Len, Markieff, Marcus, Plumlee, Frye (but I also suspect he wont play)... thats more then enough bodies to throw into the front court, even if a few are out. And I think when Lee and Sleazley get axed they will bring in another min player or two. It wont be the prettiest rotation (we have got to have the worst forwards in the league) but it does exist.

 

[leclerc]

Right now we have 2 maybe 3 guys for two positions. Gortat should be back at 100% if he stops playing semi-injured. Keef is healthy right now. Len might be ready but it's a long season so I would be surprised if he appears in all 82 games. That's 96 minutes every night on three dudes. Marcus is seriously not a PF. I do not expect to see Frye play again either.

Have anyone heard Frye working out somewhere? How come you think he will be back at full force?

We need to sign another couple of inside players to keep from being embarrassed every night.

 

[Phrazbit]

Frye is not allowed to do anything that gets his heart rate up until doctors clear him... which I am pretty sure has not happened yet or we would have heard about it. Even if he gets cleared its hard to picture him being in decent basketball shape at this point following a year of zero cardio work. He probably would play less than 15 minutes a night.

And I agree that Marcus is not a PF... but I expect him to play it some purely because they will need someone to fill minutes. He isnt a small forward either. Marcus is pretty dang useless. If Markieff develops into a serviceable rotation player it will be interesting to see how they handle trying to keep him while dumping his useless brother.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Frye is not allowed to do anything that gets his heart rate up until doctors clear him... which I am pretty sure has not happened yet or we would have heard about it. Even if he gets cleared its hard to picture him being in decent basketball shape at this point following a year of zero cardio work. He probably would play less than 15 minutes a night.

And I agree that Marcus is not a PF... but I expect him to play it some purely because they will need someone to fill minutes. He isnt a small forward either. Marcus is pretty dang useless. If Markieff develops into a serviceable rotation player it will be interesting to see how they handle trying to keep him while dumping his useless brother.

Sure but there's even more to it. Even if he gets cleared and even if he gets all the way back to basketball shape, he's still a poor fit for our team. I like him more than most here do but he needs to be a role player surrounded by solid talent. When he's hot you leave him out there but when he's not, you have to sit him. He's just not the guy you want having everyday responsibilities as a power forward. He's a nice weapon used correctly and a liability used any other way.

Steve

 

[Phrazbit]

I certainly agree that he will probably struggle. His shooting numbers without Nash are pretty ugly. As one of the only 'catch and shoot' guys on the roster and without a true distributor to give him good looks and as a dude whos confidence seems to evaporate in a heartbeat when he misses a few in a row... I would expect him to have a rough year.

If he plays.

 

[elindholm]

If he's healthy, Frye is a much better option at PF than either Morris. Frye has some moves in the post -- they are rudimentary, to be sure, but still more effective than what either Morris brings to the table -- and he is underrated defensively and on the boards.

A healthy Frye is a top-five player on this roster. Realize that this speaks more to how bad the roster is rather than how good Frye is.

 

[Superbone]

If he's healthy, Frye is a much better option at PF than either Morris. Frye has some moves in the post -- they are rudimentary, to be sure, but still more effective than what either Morris brings to the table -- and he is underrated defensively and on the boards.

A healthy Frye is a top-five player on this roster. Realize that this speaks more to how bad the roster is rather than how good Frye is.

I agree with all of this.

 

[Gaddabout]

His combine numbers say he is explosive.

He did not show it in the film embedded within this thread. That spin move is nice, but doesn't own it. Not a go to move.

 

[JCSunsfan]

If he's healthy, Frye is a much better option at PF than either Morris. Frye has some moves in the post -- they are rudimentary, to be sure, but still more effective than what either Morris brings to the table -- and he is underrated defensively and on the boards.

A healthy Frye is a top-five player on this roster. Realize that this speaks more to how bad the roster is rather than how good Frye is.

Finally, an honest assessment of Channing Fry. My only disagreement here would be that I think I have seen moves from him that are above rudimentary.

The big problem, of course, is if your not healthy, it does not matter how good you are.

 

[Mainstreet]

Frye would be the best PF the the Suns have on the roster if healthy as elindholm points out. However, he does not fit into the Suns youth movement. He might even help the Suns get some more wins if he returns to form.

There is also the question if Frye would play tentative after coming back from this type of health issue and what his game would be like after missing a season.

Actually, it might be a wash, the positives and the negatives.

From my perspective, I think it would be best for Frye and the Suns if he does not return to the game. Even if he were medically cleared, I would still worry about his health. If Frye is cleared to play, there is no doubt the Suns would take him back unless there were a buyout.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Wow. All this Frye support floors me. Where were you guys when this board was ripping his every move? Absence truly does make the heart grow fonder. I think he is more of an asset than many on this board do but I don't think he's as good as you guys are now painting him. If he does come back healthy I predict by midseason he will be the whipping boy of choice for our poor play. He has been the whipping boy in the past and that was on far more talented teams. Now, fully exposed, he'll draw even more attention from opponents and fans.

Steve

 

[elindholm]

Wow. All this Frye support floors me. Where were you guys when this board was ripping his every move? Absence truly does make the heart grow fonder.

Or it confounds memories. Maybe the Frye bashers were different people from the ones making these more recent assessments. If you were interested, you could probably find out.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Or it confounds memories. Maybe the Frye bashers were different people from the ones making these more recent assessments. If you were interested, you could probably find out.

I'm quite sure there's some crossover. I don't remember you as one of the Frye bashers but I honestly do not remember you making as positive of a Frye post as your earlier one. Perhaps I missed it.

Steve

 

[Phrazbit]

Well, to be fair I actually somewhat agree. If healthy Frye is the best PF on this roster. But thats more a reflection on how awful the other options are, because I think Frye is pretty lousy.

Markieff is really bad. His baseline stats are pretty awful and I think he is much worse than his stats suggest. Marcus is about twice as worthless as Markieff. After them you're left with Plumlee... and the best thing that can be said about Plumlee is he has not played enough to judge anything by his horrifying statistical resume.

With Frye you're getting poor rebounding, below average defense, bad inside scoring, good three point shooting but purely in catch and shoot situations and confidence that evaporates in an instant and will stay gone for long long stretches. But all of that is still better than the other options in pretty much every category.

All of that said, his contract is still a farce and after a season of no basketball activity, shoulder issues and no more Steve giving him the wide open threes... the Frye that I described above I never expect to see again.

 

[Neo]

Wow. All this Frye support floors me. Where were you guys when this board was ripping his every move?

I don't think that this is support for Frye as much as it is an indictment against our current roster.
Who else do we have on the team that that is a good three point shooter? Nobody.
What PF do we have that has ever averaged a very pedestrian 12 points and 6 rebounds? Micheal Beasley if you count him as a power forward, but Beasely has consistently gotten worse each season and can't be counted for anything worthwhile on a basketball court.

We have very little talent up front and if Frye can come back healthy and in shape (which is a huge "if") then he will be un upgrade to the roster.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Well, to be fair I actually somewhat agree. If healthy Frye is the best PF on this roster. But thats more a reflection on how awful the other options are, because I think Frye is pretty lousy.

Markieff is really bad. His baseline stats are pretty awful and I think he is much worse than his stats suggest. Marcus is about twice as worthless as Markieff. After them you're left with Plumlee... and the best thing that can be said about Plumlee is he has not played enough to judge anything by his horrifying statistical resume.

With Frye you're getting poor rebounding, below average defense, bad inside scoring, good three point shooting but purely in catch and shoot situations and confidence that evaporates in an instant and will stay gone for long long stretches. But all of that is still better than the other options in pretty much every category.

All of that said, his contract is still a farce and after a season of no basketball activity, shoulder issues and no more Steve giving him the wide open threes... the Frye that I described above I never expect to see again.

I think Morris is a much better option as an everyday power forward than Frye. You can't really count on either of them offensively but Markieff, IMO, is still improving and has already passed Channing as a rebounder and a defender. If you can't have a star at that spot you at least need to get decent defensive play from the guy and the only one that fits that description is Morris. If you had a complete team Frye would probably be the better addition but we are far from that.

I really do not want to attack Frye especially since I've pretty much made a career of being his biggest supporter on this board. I'm just astounded the way he's being supported currently given all the abuse that's been heaped on him here since the day we signed him. I feel like I've stepped into a Bizarro world.

Steve

 

[Phrazbit]

I think Morris is a much better option as an everyday power forward than Frye. You can't really count on either of them offensively but Markieff, IMO, is still improving and has already passed Channing as a rebounder and a defender. If you can't have a star at that spot you at least need to get decent defensive play from the guy and the only one that fits that description is Morris. If you had a complete team Frye would probably be the better addition but we are far from that.

I really do not want to attack Frye especially since I've pretty much made a career of being his biggest supporter on this board. I'm just astounded the way he's being supported currently given all the abuse that's been heaped on him here since the day we signed him. I feel like I've stepped into a Bizarro world.

Steve

I guess we have more of a difference of opinion on Markieff than Frye. I think Markieff is basically a really really awful version of Frye, every bit as bad defensively (or worse) but minus the shot blocking. A much worse shooter. And I know Frye is bad on the glass, but again Markieff is actually worse. Markieff still could improve, it would not take much for him to pass Frye as a rebounder but he didnt get there last year.

And on top of all that, it seemed to me that we were a lot worse whenever Markieff was on the court. All of the ways guys can be sneaky bad; standing in the wrong spots, being slow in transition, misplaying PnRs... I felt like Markieff was checking all those boxes.

And then you've got this:
http://www.82games.com/1213/12PHO11.HTM#onoff

The Suns were bad without Markieff out there, and they were really really bad with him.

 

[elindholm]

What do all of those fancy advanced metrics say about Frye versus Mk. Morris on the defensive end?

 

[AzStevenCal]

I don't think that this is support for Frye as much as it is an indictment against our current roster.
Who else do we have on the team that that is a good three point shooter? Nobody.
What PF do we have that has ever averaged a very pedestrian 12 points and 6 rebounds? Micheal Beasley if you count him as a power forward, but Beasely has consistently gotten worse each season and can't be counted for anything worthwhile on a basketball court.

We have very little talent up front and if Frye can come back healthy and in shape (which is a huge "if") then he will be un upgrade to the roster.

That's certainly true but even if he is the best option (and I think that's highly contestable) I don't really see him as anything that could be called an upgrade. Without a PG like Nash, I just don't think we'll get much from him at the 3 point line and if you ignore that aspect of his game it's hard to consider him an upgrade over anyone at that position. At best they're all toss-ups (or toss-outs). I honestly think we'd be better with 6-5 Tucker playing the PF regularly than we would be with Channing, at least he won't be waltzed around the court by any old stick figure he defends.

As I think about this though I realize I'm mostly talking about how Frye would have helped this team last year. And to put it bluntly, I don't think he would have made the slightest difference. This season, perhaps, things will be different. If the combo of Bledsoe and Goran (with help from Goodwin) can provide the drive and kick threat we've lacked without Nash maybe Frye will truly be the better option.

Steve

 

[AzStevenCal]

What do all of those fancy advanced metrics say about Frye versus Mk. Morris on the defensive end?

Yeah, I have no idea about the numbers. I could look them up but I'd still have no idea about them. I know from watching them play that Morris looks like a far superior position rebounder but he's been so inconsistent as a defender that I really don't know what the stats would show. I'd also point out that we've probably seen Channing at the top of his game while there is still hope for improvement from Morris.

Steve

 

[ASUCHRIS]

What do all of those fancy advanced metrics say about Frye versus Mk. Morris on the defensive end?

I don't know about fancy metrics, but neither passes the eye test. Frye has long arms, but gets bull dozed by anyone with size. Morris has raptor arms, and can't guard anyone.

We're comparing levels of crap, and neither gets significant minutes on a good team.

 

[Phrazbit]

Yeah, I think he is a downgrade from last year's situation when Scola was getting the majority of our PF minutes. Scola was a pretty stable presence on offense and on the glass and I dont think he was any worse than Frye defensively, and I felt like he was better than Morris on that end.

Our forward rotation as a whole looks awful, I think the vast majority of the league has us beat at both forward positions. I dont know if I could think of a more uninspiring group in recent NBA history.

 

[Neo]

What do all of those fancy advanced metrics say about Frye versus Mk. Morris on the defensive end?

The Mk Morris and Frye both had a Defensive Win Share of 1.9 in their last seasons played. Morris has a career Defensive Rating Average of 105, Frye's is 108. They are pretty even statistically. Neither is very impressive.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Yeah, I think he is a downgrade from last year's situation when Scola was getting the majority of our PF minutes. Scola was a pretty stable presence on offense and on the glass and I dont think he was any worse than Frye defensively, and I felt like he was better than Morris on that end.

Our forward rotation as a whole looks awful, I think the vast majority of the league has us beat at both forward positions. I dont know if I could think of a more uninspiring group in recent NBA history.

I think Scola was worse defensively than either Frye or Morris at least until we moved him to center. I thought he defended very well whenever he matched up against a true big man. But back when he was playing alongside Gortat he was an atrocious defender, seemingly by choice.

Steve