Possible Replacement for Amare?

[Chaplin]

I always thought Steve Nash was a transcendant player. It bothers me a little at how little respect he gets on this board. Sure he makes mistakes, but there is no denying he is one of the best to ever play his position, certainly better than Isaiah Thomas.

 

[overseascardfan]

I would just like to know from the people that are saying Lee would set us back, how do they propose the Suns get better? Amare will most likely leave, we would have to replace him with somebody and Lee is probably the most realistic option.

For those who are saying arguing over rebuilding and reloading, Amare will dictate that whether he stays or not. We have no draft picks, we will need to keep J-Rich as he will become our primary scorer if Amare leaves. Everyone else is under a manageable contract. As far a luxury tax implications, how does signing Lee to $10M a year hurt us more than signing Amare to $20M a year or make it impossible for that matter?

Lastly I laughed at the McDyess to Googs comparison to Amare and Lee. McDyess then was a better player than Amare now, McDyess rebounded, played D and was becoming an offensive threat. Lee and Amare are similar except Amare is more of an offensive force but Lee is a much better rebounder and better passer.

 

[Covert Rain]

Lee haters need to get a perspective.


- No one in the league except Duncan, Bosh, Nowitski, Howard would be an "UPGRADE" from Stoudemire scoring wise.

- Lee is 20/12 with Duhon as point guard... and NO ONE else to take defensive attention away from him.


- Lee with the Suns will score 4-6 points a night off offensive put backs alone.
- Lee's 9+ defensive rebounds will prevent 4-6 points a night from second chance points alone.
- Lee's defensive rebounding will create 3-4 fast break opportunities alone.


Suns were a double double guy away from Finals appearance....


- Lee at Half the salary Stoudemire wants is a GREAT thing for the Suns, as they can get more "pieces" to help.

Yes, let's get some perspective. Everybody including the ball boy knows we need more defense on the team. So, if your going to start replacing players, do it with players who have more defense...not less.

I would trade a 20 a point a night player in David Lee for a forward who will give me 15 and play good defense. We don't need to replace a mediocre to bad defensive player with another bad defensive player. It doesn't make any sense.

It's not like your going to get Lee for 10 million per year. He is going to probably costs you 12-14 Million. If your chewing up that much cap space for an Amare replacement, it had better be an upgrade defensively.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Fans suddenly developed amnesia after the Suns were eliminated, forgetting Amare's play in the 2nd half of the season plays a crucial role in Suns getting the 3rd seed.

I didn't develop amnesia. Amare was incredible for most of the second half of the season. Regardless of opponent, he was unstoppable on offense and active on defense. But then, something changed starting with the 2nd to last game of the season. From that point on his effort came sporadically and it showed in all areas of his game. He went from being one of the 2 or 3 best players in the game to maybe top 25. I'm not saying he played horribly, just not up to his ability.

Steve

 

[Cheesebeef]

I always thought Steve Nash was a transcendant player. It bothers me a little at how little respect he gets on this board. Sure he makes mistakes, but there is no denying he is one of the best to ever play his position, certainly better than Isaiah Thomas.

I think Nash WAS a transcedant player which is why we had a legitimate shot to win the title for 3 years when he was in his prime. However, he's now 36, going on 37 and he's not what he was. Thus, we don't have a transcendant player on this team any more.

All that being said, I don't think there's any way you can call him better or even as good as Isiah who not only could score 20 ppg, but could also dish 10 assists and play great defense. Dude led the Pistons to 5 ECF finals in a row, 3 Finals in a row and 2 Finals Titles.

Just out of curiousity, what's your argument that Nash is better than Isiah?

 

[ninous26]

Lebron James We will win a championship with him and nash.

 

[AfroSuns]

I didn't develop amnesia. Amare was incredible for most of the second half of the season. Regardless of opponent, he was unstoppable on offense and active on defense. But then, something changed starting with the 2nd to last game of the season. From that point on his effort came sporadically and it showed in all areas of his game. He went from being one of the 2 or 3 best players in the game to maybe top 25. I'm not saying he played horribly, just not up to his ability.

Steve

imo, i would attribute that to playoff intensity. See what the Celtics did to Lebron and Howard. Amare is talented but his BBall IQ is low, although that seem to have slightly improved under Gentry he still has long ways to go. Adjusting when he is the main focus of the opponent's defense is not his forte. He is clearly not the same Amare that lit up Duncan earlier in his career back when his athleticism made up for his smarts but he is still potent enough for opponents to take notice.

 

[cly2tw]

I didn't develop amnesia. Amare was incredible for most of the second half of the season. Regardless of opponent, he was unstoppable on offense and active on defense. But then, something changed starting with the 2nd to last game of the season. From that point on his effort came sporadically and it showed in all areas of his game. He went from being one of the 2 or 3 best players in the game to maybe top 25. I'm not saying he played horribly, just not up to his ability.

Steve

So, what you are saying that Amare is indeed the player you thought he was in the second half of regular season before playoffs? What ever was concern to him to withhold himself, would he become that player of 2nd half next years and next playoffs?

I think Nash WAS a transcedant player which is why we had a legitimate shot to win the title for 3 years when he was in his prime. However, he's now 36, going on 37 and he's not what he was. Thus, we don't have a transcendant player on this team any more.

All that being said, I don't think there's any way you can call him better or even as good as Isiah who not only could score 20 ppg, but could also dish 10 assists and play great defense. Dude led the Pistons to 5 ECF finals in a row, 3 Finals in a row and 2 Finals Titles.

Just out of curiousity, what's your argument that Nash is better than Isiah?

Nash was that transcendent player (whatever this term means) on offense, when with a little separation say in a 2-man game with Amare he could score deadly with that pullup anywhere. But he was not that on defense, compared to MJ, Kobe, Wade, Isiah or even Pierce. Once we found a master in the Spurs at not allowing him that little separation, his trancendencity went fishing. And as a team, Suns hadn't developed a sufficient sets of other options for offense. This year, due to Nash worn down earlier than ever, already in December, we had to work on other options for the first time in 7 years consistently. Geez, the time was too short to beat the champs with what we hastenly developed on the run, constantly re-inventing ourselves from game to game, due to loss of Nash's transcendency.

Apropos Pierce, he was a scape goat hated by Celtics fans just as Amare now. When I proposed to trade Marion for Pierce 4 years ago, I was ridiculed just as I'm now for saying 'give Amare a chance'. I believe just one year before they got KG and Allen, Ainge gave Pierce another max contract despite the team sucking. Oh, Pierce was almost stabbed to death the year or two earlier in a bar for whatever offcourt issues. Nobody would have associated anything transcendent with Pierce back then. Yet, I wanted to have him for the much hotter great-on-stats-sheet guy Marion. Speaking of visions!

Wow!! Amare is not instrumental in our wins against the Spurs? Every team we played in the post-season had to double or triple team Amare. JRich was playing hot because he was open in those series, because of who.....? When we played a front-line of bigs that were able to contain Amare, what happened to JRich? One on one Amare would decimate anyone on the offensive side, can you say the same as Lee, how many double team does Lee command, grass is surely greener...... Where is this Dirk that had Dampier, Haywood, Marion (rebound magnet), Butler when the Spurs sent them fishing. Amare's defense/rebounding sucks but let anyone name 3 players that can guard Amare one on one in this league.
Lakers knew Nash and Amare are the Suns Aces and they did a good job of defending them. Put a player like Odom beside Amare and we will be talking of winning it all. Fans suddenly developed amnesia after the Suns were eliminated, forgetting Amare's play in the 2nd half of the season plays a crucial role in Suns getting the 3rd seed. I really really hope Amare signs somewhere where they have a semi-talented big man who can rebound well.
Amare has his limit and we all know where they lie and when he leaves and we dont get something close to his offensive output, all this myopic view of defense only is going to come crashing down when the Suns barely make the playoffs next season.

Look no further than either Miami or Nets. If Miami gets JO for cheap to stay on and Brook being the twin brother of Robin, he will get that good rebounding center. Also, defense is a team thing. Both teams have excellent perimeter defense in Wade/whoever or Harris/Williams/Dooling. I stick with my prediction that barring severe injuries Amare will be as good as Malone, seeing as how fast he learned with 4 months of training on the job.

 

[elindholm]

The Bulls, the Rockets, the Spurs, the Heat, the Celtics, the Pistons all got there by the draft where they got their transcendant player and then they had 10 year runs in them.

The Bulls, yes, of course. The team that drafts Michael Jordan wins, I get that.

The Rockets? When was their 10-year run? They didn't do a whole lot before their two titles, and once they traded for Barkley a year and a half later, they were done. So they drafted the best center of his generation, waited for Jordan to take up baseball, and ran off a couple of quick titles before anyone caught on. Okay.

I already dismissed the Spurs because a fluke allowed them to get two #1 overall picks just a few years apart. They aren't useful as a model.

The Bird Celtics, that's a bit far back for me, so I'll take your word for it. I should have said last 25 years, not last 30.

The Pistons, I'm guessing you mean the Bad Boys. I really don't see Thomas as a "transcendent" player of the same caliber as Jordan/Bird/Duncan/etc. He was the defining player on that team mainly because, as the nastiest, he was their most representative.

The Lakers got there because they're LA and they are the most attractive franchise in the NBA. We aren't that.

It's you that ignores the fact that we aren't LA and will NEVER be able to offer what that city does for athletes.

I'm not ignoring that. The Suns landed a two-time MVP in free agency. The Nash Suns were, possibly, an Horry hip-check away from one title and an Artest put-back away from another. Maybe, maybe not, but you have to at least admit that they've gotten a lot closer than most of the rest of the league. And they got Stoudemire through shrewed drafting at #9, not by tanking.

The Heat were nothing before they got their Franchise Player, who was the guy who was the reason Shaq wanted to go there and is now the guy you can STILL build around.

I definitely disagree with your point there. The Heat weren't tanking; they were struggling with Mourning's kidney problems. And you give O'Neal too much credit: He didn't want to go to Miami because of Wade, so much as he wanted to go someplace that was going to give him a big extension.

And you know what fact DOES back me up? The Suns have never won a title with their "always rebuilding on the run".

But the Cavs have never won a title by tanking for James. Denver has never won a title with Anthony. Houston hasn't won with Yao, Orlando hasn't won with Howard, New Orleans hasn't won with Paul. These are all potentially transcendent players who lack that status because things haven't quite fallen the right way.

What are you talking about? The Celtics hitting rock bottom and getting the numebr 5 pick and having Al Jefferson is WHAT ALLOWED THEM to do what they did.

But how did they get Jefferson? By drafting him at #15 -- not even in the lottery! -- only two years after they had made the ECF with Pierce and Antoine Walker. They didn't pull the plug and hold a fire sale. They waited until they had accumulated some assets, then swung for the fences when the right opportunity presented itself.

You want to build around a 36 year old old man without a #5 pick and with no 20/10 big under contract.

No, I'd rather not, but I don't see a better option. It's not like Nash is going to fetch much in a trade. The "blow it up" crowd mainly wants to get rid of Nash just to get rid of him, as though becoming a cellar dweller overnight is somehow going to purge the franchise of its previous failings.

I get that you're upset about last night and don't like having your opinion questioned, but that doesn't mean you have to go full ****** on me.

I like having my opinion questioned just fine. Actually, if people can be coherent while they do it, and not resort to personal attacks, I think it's great. You tell me why you think what you think, and I tell you why I think what I think. There's no reason to be threatened by it.

But apparently, you want to use any disagreement as an excuse to resort to name calling and childish shouting.

 

[jibikao]

I agree with all of this. All I was sayin is that without Amare the Suns don't even make the playoffs. Look at his stats from the All Star break to a week ago. He was awesome.

Do you guys think Amare's mom was a huge distraction for him? I mean didn't his mom got tasered or something? I didn't read the article but it was on TMZ. My co-worker said there's article about Amare and his mom and it was quite embarrassing?


I also think Amare seems to be EASILY distracted or discouraged. Before the trade-deadline, Suns lost quite a few games because there was a rumor that Amare may get traded and then after the trade deadline, Amare SUDDENLY plays like almost like a max. contract player.

I guess that's what pisses some of you guys off the most. You guys know he CAN do it if he wants to but for whatever reason, Amare just can't focus hard enough for a long period of time. The playoff run can really take a toll on any human being. I mean regular season has 82 games and then the post season games.


What Amare needs is a good psychologist that can help him focus for a longer period of time because I think that's what he is lacking. This is why I have a bad feeling that 1. Amare plays very well after he leaves. 2. Amare plays like **** or some lame injury excuses after he got his max. contract.

 

[mojorizen7]

doesn't change my argument all that much. Bottom line, you need transcendant players to win or even get to the NBA Finals... we never have that because we never allow ourselves to truly rebuild once a run is over.

Agreed, its been one band-aid after another....which i suppose translates into being a decent to good team year after year(never an embarrassing team)....which is okay with some fans.

Ya'll know where i stand....the Nash/Amare thing has run its course.

Since Rodman,Oakley,Cage,Wallace aren't available to complete this already very good basketball team i'm in favor of moving either Amare or Nash and a few other pieces in order to attempt to reseat ourselves to contend in a few years if we get continued solid drafting from Kerr,diligent FA moves and some luck cometh our way.

Tough choice(s) with many variables:
Where Nash goes G.Hill will surely follow,can we get a S&T deal done for Amare?....what will Amare decide?....do we move Barbosa or keep him as an exp next season? Did Channing Frye's game expand during this playoff run or is it a mirage?

Its going to be interesting.

 

[AzStevenCal]

The "blow it up" crowd mainly wants to get rid of Nash just to get rid of him, as though becoming a cellar dweller overnight is somehow going to purge the franchise of its previous failings.

I want to move Nash this offseason because I believe it's the last chance we have to get value back for him. He proved this year that he can still be effective although it's clear that injuries are taking it's toll. Maybe I'm crazy but I really think we might get at least a pick from Toronto to let him finish his career in Canada. Also, I could see Nowitzki lobbying to get him back in Dallas. Neither Kidd nor Nash has enough to be a star PG daily but the combo might be just what they need.

I want to rebuild because I believe we have movable assets that can net something in return starting with Amare. If I'm wrong about our assets and all that we have available to us is a fire sale than I'd forego rebuilding but I'm not convinced that's the case.

Steve

 

[tobiazz]

Do you guys think Amare's mom was a huge distraction for him? I mean didn't his mom got tasered or something? I didn't read the article but it was on TMZ. My co-worker said there's article about Amare and his mom and it was quite embarrassing?

I think his mom could be a huge distraction, but it doesn't really matter if she is the cause of his lazy play or not. She will still be his mom next season, and, if she is not the problem, whatever the problem is will likely remain.

I also think Amare seems to be EASILY distracted or discouraged. Before the trade-deadline, Suns lost quite a few games because there was a rumor that Amare may get traded and then after the trade deadline, Amare SUDDENLY plays like almost like a max. contract player.

I guess that's what pisses some of you guys off the most. You guys know he CAN do it if he wants to but for whatever reason, Amare just can't focus hard enough for a long period of time. The playoff run can really take a toll on any human being. I mean regular season has 82 games and then the post season games.


What Amare needs is a good psychologist that can help him focus for a longer period of time because I think that's what he is lacking. This is why I have a bad feeling that 1. Amare plays very well after he leaves. 2. Amare plays like **** or some lame injury excuses after he got his max. contract.

#1 would be lame, but it's not worth basing personnel decisions on.

#2 is scary but at this point I'm less scared of his micro-fracture than I am of signing a guy like Oden or Bynum who is injured less severely but more frequently. Also, there is no reason to believe Amare's effort level will increase in the future so we have to decide what a 22/8 guy is worth and forget about "potential" at this point aside from the potential to get worse.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Apropos Pierce, he was a scape goat hated by Celtics fans just as Amare now. When I proposed to trade Marion for Pierce 4 years ago, I was ridiculed just as I'm now for saying 'give Amare a chance'. I believe just one year before they got KG and Allen, Ainge gave Pierce another max contract despite the team sucking. Oh, Pierce was almost stabbed to death the year or two earlier in a bar for whatever offcourt issues. Nobody would have associated anything transcendent with Pierce back then. Yet, I wanted to have him for the much hotter great-on-stats-sheet guy Marion. Speaking of visions!

a) NO ONE would call Pierce a transcendant player. He's a very good-great player, but Bird, Michael, Larry, Magic, Hakeem, Isiah, Kobe, Duncan... uh... no.

And Pierce has ALWAYS had a more complete game than Amare so I'm not sure what the comparison is there. Pierce could shoot outside, drive to the hole, was a good passer and could play decent D. Amare can score. That's ALL.

Oh... and I would have killed to trade him for Marion. Hell, I used to get blasted n this board for wanting to trade Marion for the 3rd pick when Melo was out there. You weren't the only one who saw his short-comings.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I want to move Nash this offseason because I believe it's the last chance we have to get value back for him. He proved this year that he can still be effective although it's clear that injuries are taking it's toll. Maybe I'm crazy but I really think we might get at least a pick from Toronto to let him finish his career in Canada. Also, I could see Nowitzki lobbying to get him back in Dallas. Neither Kidd nor Nash has enough to be a star PG daily but the combo might be just what they need.

I want to rebuild because I believe we have movable assets that can net something in return starting with Amare. If I'm wrong about our assets and all that we have available to us is a fire sale than I'd forego rebuilding but I'm not convinced that's the case.

Steve

agreed, but it's easier for eric to make straw man arguments that we just want to get rid of him to get rid of him then face reality.

 

[Joe Mama]

Yes, let's get some perspective. Everybody including the ball boy knows we need more defense on the team. So, if your going to start replacing players, do it with players who have more defense...not less.

I would trade a 20 a point a night player in David Lee for a forward who will give me 15 and play good defense. We don't need to replace a mediocre to bad defensive player with another bad defensive player. It doesn't make any sense.

Amen. I've argued for a couple years that we could be a better team or at least as good if we can replace Amare Stoudemire with a player who is good defensively and on the boards. They don't have to be the offensive player that Amare is. I wouldn't want to replace him with someone smaller and arguably worse defensively (this is really hard to imagine) even if he is better on the boards, especially when that player is going to cost around $13 million per season. They need to find somebody who is not on everybody's radar right now. A wad of players will look incredible playing with Steve Nash and this offense. Even Lopez if he can stay healthy is going to look pretty good offensively playing with this team. Don't pay that much money to get even smaller and not improve defensively.

I think Nash WAS a transcedant player which is why we had a legitimate shot to win the title for 3 years when he was in his prime. However, he's now 36, going on 37 and he's not what he was. Thus, we don't have a transcendant player on this team any more.

All that being said, I don't think there's any way you can call him better or even as good as Isiah who not only could score 20 ppg, but could also dish 10 assists and play great defense. Dude led the Pistons to 5 ECF finals in a row, 3 Finals in a row and 2 Finals Titles.

Just out of curiousity, what's your argument that Nash is better than Isiah?

I really must not be watching the same Steve Nash as everybody else. I think Steve Nash is every bit as good now as he was a few years ago, especially when you have a decent backup and a coach willing to use them even during the playoffs. Let's put it this way. I think Steve Nash is just as good for 30 minutes per game now as he was for 38 minutes per game four years ago. He is pretty bad defensively, but on offense he's just ridiculously good. I mean somebody mentioned earlier in this thread I believe that Steve Nash didn't have the ball away jumper anymore. I just don't see what they are watching.

I just think Steve Nash is going to be playing great basketball until the end of his current contract. I would keep increasing Dragic's minutes. If you have to do it put them both on the court at the same time a little bit more to make sure they both get enough minutes.

Just really torn on Amare Stoudemire. I don't think they should sign him to a maximum contract, and I still don't believe they will offer him one. I'm not sure I want him back for anything anywhere near that much money though. Would sure be nice if we had a good pick in the draft. Seems like there are a lot of big men this year.

This is shortly going to be an exciting and nerve-racking summer.

Joe

 

[cly2tw]

a) NO ONE would call Pierce a transcendant player. He's a very good-great player, but Bird, Michael, Larry, Magic, Hakeem, Isiah, Kobe, Duncan... uh... no.

And Pierce has ALWAYS had a more complete game than Amare so I'm not sure what the comparison is there. Pierce could shoot outside, drive to the hole, was a good passer and could play decent D. Amare can score. That's ALL.

Oh... and I would have killed to trade him for Marion. Hell, I used to get blasted n this board for wanting to trade Marion for the 3rd pick when Melo was out there. You weren't the only one who saw his short-comings.

So, you thought Marion was as good as Melo's potential? Were you among the guys who blasted me for wanting to trade Marion for the 7th pick that turned out to be Nene?

Back then, Pierce wasn't playing much defense and many fans wanted him gone for the same reason: they didn't believe he could carry the team. Whether transcendent or not, you need the proper combination of talent and game plan to win championships. Amare could go Googs or Penny on us due to injury issue. But if anything, game 6 loss to Lakers shows you often need 3 players with full attention to stop him. Under Gentry, in only half season, he showed a lot of improvement, which he should have been given a chance to learn in his rookie or sophmore seasons. As I say, he learned faster than Dwight Howard or Jefferson when given the chance. Just not fast enough for fans.

 

[Cheesebeef]

The Bulls, yes, of course. The team that drafts Michael Jordan wins, I get that.

The Rockets? When was their 10-year run? They didn't do a whole lot before their two titles, and once they traded for Barkley a year and a half later, they were done. So they drafted the best center of his generation, waited for Jordan to take up baseball, and ran off a couple of quick titles before anyone caught on. Okay.

Wha? The Rockets went to the Finals 3 times with Hakeem and they were one Sam perkins shot away from playing us in the WCF in 1993 and then Hakeem went back to the WCF with Barkley. That's 5 WCF appearances and 3 Finals appearances. That wasn't "a whole lot?" That's more than our franchise's ENTIRE EXISTENCE.

I already dismissed the Spurs because a fluke allowed them to get two #1 overall picks just a few years apart. They aren't useful as a model.

Huh? They got two number picks a DECADE apart and they were able to build two COMPLETELY different teams around Duncan. How do you not see that getting a player of Duncan's magnitude allowed them to be able to dominate for years?

The Pistons, I'm guessing you mean the Bad Boys. I really don't see Thomas as a "transcendent" player of the same caliber as Jordan/Bird/Duncan/etc. He was the defining player on that team mainly because, as the nastiest, he was their most representative.

You might not, probably because it again just goes to provide evidence for my argument, but being the leader of a team who went to 5 consecutive ECFs and 3 straight Finals while being only one of 3 players to ever average 20/10 and ended up with 19/9/2 per game and is widely recognized as one of the best players in the game kinda says transcendent to me.

I'm not ignoring that. The Suns landed a two-time MVP in free agency. The Nash Suns were, possibly, an Horry hip-check away from one title and an Artest put-back away from another. Maybe, maybe not, but you have to at least admit that they've gotten a lot closer than most of the rest of the league. And they got Stoudemire through shrewed drafting at #9, not by tanking.

Are you kidding? We got Amare SPECIFICALLY because we decided to trade Kidd because we knew we weren't going anywhere. That move allowed us to get into the lottery where we could start building for the future... and lo and behold... IT WORKED! Shocker!

And how did we get Nash? We tanked, gave up a tradeable asset which opened up huge salary cap room. How are you not getting this?

I definitely disagree with your point there. The Heat weren't tanking; they were struggling with Mourning's kidney problems. And you give O'Neal too much credit: He didn't want to go to Miami because of Wade, so much as he wanted to go someplace that was going to give him a big extension.

Even if they weren't "tanking"... wasn't it the result of them being awful which is what turned their franchise around? And the comment about Shaq is complete and utter BS. He held all the leverage there and refused to go there if Wade was part of the package. Same thing happened with Dallas where he said he'd only go if Dirk was there. You have to have some young stud to entice a player like a Shaq if that were to ever happen again. We don't have that.

But the Cavs have never won a title by tanking for James. Denver has never won a title with Anthony. Houston hasn't won with Yao, Orlando hasn't won with Howard, New Orleans hasn't won with Paul. These are all potentially transcendent players who lack that status because things haven't quite fallen the right way.

you're right... but none of those guys are 36 years old! You can continue to build around them because most of them haven't even hit their prime yet. So what's your point? You're advocating rebuilding around an aging 36 year old point guard.

But how did they get Jefferson? By drafting him at #15 -- not even in the lottery! -- only two years after they had made the ECF with Pierce and Antoine Walker. They didn't pull the plug and hold a fire sale. They waited until they had accumulated some assets, then swung for the fences when the right opportunity presented itself.

Are you kidding? Sure they did. They just didn't get rid of their most important piece... a 28 year old you could still build around... as opposed to... again... a 36 year old aging PG.

No, I'd rather not, but I don't see a better option. It's not like Nash is going to fetch much in a trade. The "blow it up" crowd mainly wants to get rid of Nash just to get rid of him, as though becoming a cellar dweller overnight is somehow going to purge the franchise of its previous failings.

And words put into mouth again... much like your inane "my theory would be Duncan would have to be traded" issue which shockingly, you didn't bring up here.

I like having my opinion questioned just fine.

if this was true, you wouldn't have started another board where you could rule the roost.

Actually, if people can be coherent while they do it, and not resort to personal attacks, I think it's great. You tell me why you think what you think, and I tell you why I think what I think.

No Eric, you tell people what THEY think. Hell, you did in THIS post that I'm quoting where you tell all the people who want to get rid of Nash that they want to do it "just to get rid of him" and you did it in that ridiculous post where you said according to my theory, I'd have Duncan traded.

Now take your ball and run along and complain on your board about how rough it is here or whatever it is you do there. But if you're gonna stay here, I hope you stop putting words in people's mouth. There's nothing more annoying on the internet than having a discussion sidelines because of intellectually dishonesty by one of the parties.

 

[tobiazz]

As far as proactively blowing it up goes . . .

I'm thinking it may not be a good idea at this point. The Suns have a tiny chance (5%?) of winning the title next year with some retooling. They might as well go for it because the last time they set themselves up to have a lot of cap space, the strike happened and hosed their plans. It would be a shame to be terrible next season and then have their groundwork ruined the next season by a strike.

EDIT: Weird, I was looking for the Mutombo trade to Phx that was allegedly rejected and just heard a lyric about Mutombo at the same time.

 

[Cheesebeef]

So, you thought Marion was as good as Melo's potential? Were you among the guys who blasted me for wanting to trade Marion for the 7th pick that turned out to be Nene?

I got blasted for saying Melo's potential dwarfed what Marion could bring us. I never had any problems with anyone thinking that Marion wasn't all that.

 

[cly2tw]

I really must not be watching the same Steve Nash as everybody else. I think Steve Nash is every bit as good now as he was a few years ago, especially when you have a decent backup and a coach willing to use them even during the playoffs. Let's put it this way. I think Steve Nash is just as good for 30 minutes per game now as he was for 38 minutes per game four years ago. He is pretty bad defensively, but on offense he's just ridiculously good. I mean somebody mentioned earlier in this thread I believe that Steve Nash didn't have the ball away jumper anymore. I just don't see what they are watching.

I just think Steve Nash is going to be playing great basketball until the end of his current contract. I would keep increasing Dragic's minutes. If you have to do it put them both on the court at the same time a little bit more to make sure they both get enough minutes.

Just really torn on Amare Stoudemire. I don't think they should sign him to a maximum contract, and I still don't believe they will offer him one. I'm not sure I want him back for anything anywhere near that much money though. Would sure be nice if we had a good pick in the draft. Seems like there are a lot of big men this year.

This is shortly going to be an exciting and nerve-racking summer.

Joe

I said Nash didn't have the fall-away, fall-down, jumper in the paint anymore. He is much slower than 2 years ago to have enough legs after 20 seconds of dribbles through paint, bumping the bigs and smalls and still hit that last moment lying-down jumper. He gets increasingly more often blocked on his pullup jumpers these playoffs too.

But I agree with you on his being as effective in 30 min as he was in 38, with a slight twist. He absolutely need to save his legs both in-game by drastically reducing dribble compared to 2 years ago, and carefully manage his health over the regular season for better physical condition in playoffs. I reiterate, he must downgrade his on-court role to more Stockton-like.

 

[cly2tw]

As far as proactively blowing it up goes . . .

I'm thinking it may not be a good idea at this point. The Suns have a tiny chance (5%?) of winning the title next year with some retooling. They might as well go for it because the last time they set themselves up to have a lot of cap space, the strike happened and hosed their plans. It would be a shame to be terrible next season and then have their groundwork ruined the next season by a strike.

EDIT: Weird, I was looking for the Mutombo trade to Phx that was allegedly rejected and just heard a lyric about Mutombo at the same time.

Especially, anyone has yet to come up with an argument that Amare signed at market price this offseason would not yield very good assets next year in a trade or two, with good enough likelihood. So, why not go for that 5% and break it up with better asset in your hands then than now!

PS: as an analogy for Amare haters, I hate Microsoft with my gut for their monopolizing the world with their business practice, but I'd still buy their stock at a high price if I believe I could profit from doing so. youknowwhatimsayin'?

 

[elindholm]

Wha? The Rockets went to the Finals 3 times with Hakeem

That's news to me. When was the other time?

That's 5 WCF appearances and 3 Finals appearances.

1995 was the only other time they made the WCF with Olajuwon.

That wasn't "a whole lot?" That's more than our franchise's ENTIRE EXISTENCE.

The Suns have two Finals appearances and something like nine or ten trips to the WCF. The Rockets have the edge with two titles.

How do you not see that getting a player of Duncan's magnitude allowed them to be able to dominate for years?

I was wrong about the Spurs. I was exaggerating to make a point, but I guess it came off too literally.

You might not, probably because it again just goes to provide evidence for my argument, but being the leader of a team who went to 5 consecutive ECFs and 3 straight Finals while being only one of 3 players to ever average 20/10 and ended up with 19/9/2 per game and is widely recognized as one of the best players in the game kinda says transcendent to me.

Yes, I generally feel that Isiah Thomas is overrated. Always have.

And how did we get Nash? We tanked, gave up a tradeable asset which opened up huge salary cap room. How are you not getting this?

I guess I'm not getting what exactly it is that you're advocating. The Marbury/Hardaway trade was done when the team wasn't going anywhere anyway, not right after a conference finals apperance.

I think what makes the current situation so difficult to assess is that Nash is still very good even though he's old by NBA standards. That's what makes this case different. It exaggerates the degree to which he is more valuable to the Suns than to anyone else.

Duncan is now in a similar situation at age 34: The Spurs' run appears to be over, but no one is suggesting trading Duncan, are they? He's still pretty darn good, so why not try to rebuild around him, even though he doesn't have a lot of time left?

if this was true, you wouldn't have started another board where you could rule the roost.

I don't rule anything on SunsTalk, which is completely obvious to anyone who visits, including you.

There's nothing more annoying on the internet than having a discussion sidelines because of intellectually dishonesty by one of the parties.

You don't say.

 

[Cheesebeef]

That's news to me. When was the other time?

In only his 2nd year, in 1986, he took the team to the Finals. 3 Finals runs.

1995 was the only other time they made the WCF with Olajuwon.

1986, 1994, 1995, 1997 - Four WCF finals Runs. My bad - 4 Conference Title runs, 3 Finals runs and 2 Titles. That's a whole lot in any book.

Yes, I generally feel that Isiah Thomas is overrated. Always have.

The captain of a team who conquered the Celtics, took the Lakers to the limit and consistently beat on Jordan is over-rated... well, okay...

Duncan is now in a similar situation at age 34: The Spurs' run appears to be over, but no one is suggesting trading Duncan, are they? He's still pretty darn good, so why not try to rebuild around him, even though he doesn't have a lot of time left?

The Spurs aren't in the same position we are. They're not facing losing their 2nd most important player. That team also can play the "what if" card, looking at themselves thinking that this was an abortion of a year with Parker's injury and that the starting five never getting a chance to gel.

 

[devilalum]

The Spurs aren't in the same position we are. They're not facing losing their 2nd most important player. That team also can play the "what if" card, looking at themselves thinking that this was an abortion of a year with Parker's injury and that the starting five never getting a chance to gel.

If they believe this I have a bridge...