Preseason Week 3 Roster Battles and Questions

[phillycard]

Just wondering who will be this years' Zach McCloud. I literally could not have been more upset at a player I had no idea of until the preseason started not making the team.

 

[Dan H]

I feel like our top 3 RBs have to be Conner, Benson, and Carter.

 

[BACH]

Where Monti has the potential to have really missed on this draft class is a round 3 with three picks who combined might play 40%-45% of snaps in year 1 on a not-good roster. Maybe injuries result in more snaps but if McBride stays healthy, Tip is only playing 35-40% of offensive snaps. Jones, if he can move up from CB5/6 to CB4, will likely only play 10-15% of defensive snaps. Adams may not play at all unless multiple injuries due to his learning curve. Just really limited upside in the group.

(just to prevent the "yeah buts", I do acknowledge that MHJ, DRobinson, DMD, and Thomas look to be able to contribute year 1)

I do not get this doom and gloom over players that have played 2 pre-season games for a coaching staff that doesn't use pre-season games to evaluate team play.

Last year Monti drafted two 3rd rounders with injury history knowing that one of them would only play half the season. No complains. This year, it's all straight to hell.

 

[kerouac9]

I do not get this doom and gloom over players that have played 2 pre-season games for a coaching staff that doesn't use pre-season games to evaluate team play.

Last year Monti drafted two 3rd rounders with injury history knowing that one of them would only play half the season. No complains. This year, it's all straight to hell.

If you’re happy with another 4-13 season, I can understand your point of view. If you have expectations above “being indifferent to winning” I imagine squandering the draft bounty built through two years of execrable football would taste bad.

 

[BACH]

If you’re happy with another 4-13 season, I can understand your point of view. If you have expectations above “being indifferent to winning” I imagine squandering the draft bounty built through two years of execrable football would taste bad.

Hahahhaha... Great Job on pulling out a strawman. Not judging a 3rd round pick by production for the first game of the season = happy with a 4-13 season. Yeah, that makes sense...

How many 3rd rounders in the NFL are ready by day 1? Not many. That is a fact. This is the list of great impact players from day 1 since 2016 by this team: Cameron Thomas, Myjai Sanders, Josh Jones, Zach Allen, Mason Cole, Chad Williams, Brandon Williams. #GREATNESS

 

[Krangodnzr]

Jones was weird because of the CB room. In 2023 they drafted Garret Williams (3rd), Kei'Trel Clark (5th), and then signed Starling Thomas as an UDFA. Clark ends up getting passed by Clark during the season and Williams looks like he can push for a 2nd/3rd CB role. At the beginning of the off-season you have three players with one year of experience which makes for an inexperienced room. They add SMB to be CB1.They then draft Max Melton in round 2 to be CB2 or CB3. This gives the Cardinals a depth chart of CB2-CB5 who are all 1 year or less, and a top 3 of SMB (high dollar, for Monti, FA), Garrett Williams (3rd round pick who the Cardinals liked what they saw from in 2023), and then Max Melton (2nd round pick). Those three are backed up by two 2nd year CBs who saw a lot of action. All of these guys are under contract for multiple years as well so there shouldn't be much roster churn with this group.

Why use a 3rd round pick on an older, rookie CB with limited upside to compete for the #4/5 CB spot with limited impact in terms of snaps? In our conference, only one teams ran 10 personnel sets in 2023 (4 WRs), and that was Seattle who only ran 15 plays from that set all year. It was just a very limited upside draft pick with a small window to get snaps and the guy they selected is older than all of Thomas, Clark, Williams, and Melton.

I think the flipside argument is that none of the 2023 roster solutions at CB other than Garrett Williams were even close to average. 2nd and 3rd round picks are pretty cheap compared to paying veterans.

 

[MadCardDisease]

Jones was weird because of the CB room. In 2023 they drafted Garret Williams (3rd), Kei'Trel Clark (5th), and then signed Starling Thomas as an UDFA. Clark ends up getting passed by Clark during the season and Williams looks like he can push for a 2nd/3rd CB role. At the beginning of the off-season you have three players with one year of experience which makes for an inexperienced room. They add SMB to be CB1.They then draft Max Melton in round 2 to be CB2 or CB3. This gives the Cardinals a depth chart of CB2-CB5 who are all 1 year or less, and a top 3 of SMB (high dollar, for Monti, FA), Garrett Williams (3rd round pick who the Cardinals liked what they saw from in 2023), and then Max Melton (2nd round pick). Those three are backed up by two 2nd year CBs who saw a lot of action. All of these guys are under contract for multiple years as well so there shouldn't be much roster churn with this group.

Why use a 3rd round pick on an older, rookie CB with limited upside to compete for the #4/5 CB spot with limited impact in terms of snaps? In our conference, only one teams ran 10 personnel sets in 2023 (4 WRs), and that was Seattle who only ran 15 plays from that set all year. It was just a very limited upside draft pick with a small window to get snaps and the guy they selected is older than all of Thomas, Clark, Williams, and Melton.

Backup CB is one of the few battles that I'm not sure where the Cardinals end up going and it is still up for grabs. I thought that Clark played pretty well during the preseason games so far. I could see the Cardinals going with Clark over Jones when the final roster is made and then put Jones on the practice squad.

Clearly most teams passed over Jones in the third round since he went very late in the 3rd. I don't think Jones put anything on tape that would have teams looking to add him to their roster over someone that they already have there. So I think Jones could safely be cut and added to the practice squad if the Cardinals decided to go that direction.

 

[kerouac9]

Hahahhaha... Great Job on pulling out a strawman. Not judging a 3rd round pick by production for the first game of the season = happy with a 4-13 season. Yeah, that makes sense...

How many 3rd rounders in the NFL are ready by day 1? Not many. That is a fact. This is the list of great impact players from day 1 since 2016 by this team: Cameron Thomas, Myjai Sanders, Josh Jones, Zach Allen, Mason Cole, Chad Williams, Brandon Williams. #GREATNESS

Then you're not responding to what Chopper is saying. These third-round picks are structurally capped in their production by the players in front of them -- not in their first game, but in their first season (maybe more).

 

[BritCard]

I would not be shocked if Ben Stille found his way on the final 53.

It's always a bit odd on cut day because the final 53 is rarely the final final 53.

I could see Stille making the initial 53 then getting bumped for a waiver pickup the next day. There are always 2-3 of those.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Jones was weird because of the CB room. In 2023 they drafted Garret Williams (3rd), Kei'Trel Clark (5th), and then signed Starling Thomas as an UDFA. Clark ends up getting passed by Clark during the season and Williams looks like he can push for a 2nd/3rd CB role. At the beginning of the off-season you have three players with one year of experience which makes for an inexperienced room. They add SMB to be CB1.They then draft Max Melton in round 2 to be CB2 or CB3. This gives the Cardinals a depth chart of CB2-CB5 who are all 1 year or less, and a top 3 of SMB (high dollar, for Monti, FA), Garrett Williams (3rd round pick who the Cardinals liked what they saw from in 2023), and then Max Melton (2nd round pick). Those three are backed up by two 2nd year CBs who saw a lot of action. All of these guys are under contract for multiple years as well so there shouldn't be much roster churn with this group.

Why use a 3rd round pick on an older, rookie CB with limited upside to compete for the #4/5 CB spot with limited impact in terms of snaps? In our conference, only one teams ran 10 personnel sets in 2023 (4 WRs), and that was Seattle who only ran 15 plays from that set all year. It was just a very limited upside draft pick with a small window to get snaps and the guy they selected is older than all of Thomas, Clark, Williams, and Melton.

My guess is that the group is incredibly questionable top to bottom, so perhaps throwing numbers and hoping was the strategy?

 

[BritCard]

My punt would be

QB - Kyler, Tune
RB - Conner, Benson, Carter, Dallas, Demercado (Yes, keep all 5)
WR - Marv, Wilson, Dortch, Jones, Moore, Pascal (Palmer and Weaver offer nothing yet and are easy PS stashes)
TE - McBride, Higgins, Reiman
OL - Paris, Brown, Fro, Hernandez, Williams, Jones, Gaines, Adams, Beachum (Jones might not make it and could go to the PS)

Total - 25

DL - Collier, Jones, Lopez, Nichols, Robinson, Stills (Keep 6 as Robinson can flex outside too, call it 5.5)
OLB - Collins, Gardeck, Xavier Thomas and toss a coin for 2 from Luketa, Dimukeje and Cam Thomas. 5 overall due to Robinson.
ILB - White, Wilson, Pappoe, Barnes
S - Budda, JT, DTD, Hall
CB - Melton, SMB, Thomas V, Williams, Jones, Clark

Total - 25

I originally had Demercado going to the PS as the easiest to stash of the RB's but I couldn't find anyone I'd rather keep. Vokolek is an easy PS stash. There's no 10th lineman I'd be worried about losing. And there's nobody on defense I'd be worried about being claimed. And as we run the ball a lot I'd be ok with 5 with Dallas being mainly ST's.

It may not stay like this for long, but this would be my initial 53 with a view to adding a TE or QB3 I think worth keeping above one of the RB's.

 

[kerouac9]

My guess is that the group is incredibly questionable top to bottom, so perhaps throwing numbers and hoping was the strategy?

I think it's really, really hard to say what the depth chart looks like right now. It's even a fool's errand to say much about preseason snap counts. I have no idea how this is going to work out.

But the challenge with throwing bodies at the problem is when you're drafting older prospects, and they take time to develop, what are you accomplishing?

 

[kerouac9]

DL - Collier, Jones, Lopez, Nichols, Robinson, Stills (Keep 6 as Robinson can flex outside too, call it 5.5)
OLB - Collins, Gardeck, Xavier Thomas and toss a coin for 2 from Luketa, Dimukeje and Cam Thomas. 5 overall due to Robinson.
ILB - White, Wilson, Pappoe, Barnes
S - Budda, JT, DTD, Hall
CB - Melton, SMB, Thomas V, Williams, Jones, Clark

Yikes this defense is gonna be really bad again.

 

[CardNots]

My punt would be

QB - Kyler, Tune
RB - Conner, Benson, Carter, Dallas, Demercado (Yes, keep all 5)
WR - Marv, Wilson, Dortch, Jones, Moore, Pascal (Palmer and Weaver offer nothing yet and are easy PS stashes)
TE - McBride, Higgins, Reiman
OL - Paris, Brown, Fro, Hernandez, Williams, Jones, Gaines, Adams, Beachum (Jones might not make it and could go to the PS)

Total - 25

DL - Collier, Jones, Lopez, Nichols, Robinson, Stills (Keep 6 as Robinson can flex outside too, call it 5.5)
OLB - Collins, Gardeck, Xavier Thomas and toss a coin for 2 from Luketa, Dimukeje and Cam Thomas. 5 overall due to Robinson.
ILB - White, Wilson, Pappoe, Barnes
S - Budda, JT, DTD, Hall
CB - Melton, SMB, Thomas V, Williams, Jones, Clark

Total - 25

I originally had Demercado going to the PS as the easiest to stash of the RB's but I couldn't find anyone I'd rather keep. Vokolek is an easy PS stash. There's no 10th lineman I'd be worried about losing. And there's nobody on defense I'd be worried about being claimed. And as we run the ball a lot I'd be ok with 5 with Dallas being mainly ST's.

It may not stay like this for long, but this would be my initial 53 with a view to adding a TE or QB3 I think worth keeping above one of the RB's.

I really don’t think Weaver is easily stashed on the practice squad. At least I would not chance it.

I think having 5 RBs for what we will be doing is prudent. Otherwise I think they trade away Carter but i think that would be a mistake as Conner will miss games. I’m not ready to think Benson at year one would be the #1 RB.

 

[BirdGangThing]

We have too many safeties

 

[BritCard]

Yikes this defense is gonna be really bad again.

Is there a player that gets cut here that was going to make it good?

 

[BritCard]

I really don’t think Weaver is easily stashed on the practice squad. At I would want to chance it.

I think having 5 RBs for what we will be doing is prudent. Otherwise I think they trade away Carter but i think that would be a mistake as Conner will miss games. I’m not ready to think Benson at year one would be the #1 RB.

I don't see teams picking up a UDFA WR to their 53 that doesn't know their offense or have any connection with the QB.

The only risk would be him getting PS offers from elsewhere and him deciding to go to another PS. But what would we be losing? A guy that might be Zach Pascal in 3 years?

 

[BACH]

Then you're not responding to what Chopper is saying. These third-round picks are structurally capped in their production by the players in front of them -- not in their first game, but in their first season (maybe more).

No, I'm responding to your direct reply to my post. And what Chopper is saying is exactly my point actually.

We have a coaching staff that is not using pre-season like most people are used to making it next to impossible to evaluate players for us random fans and yet half of this board has already called out players as clear misses and saying Monti made a mistake.

You cannot conclude on a 3rd rounder after 2 pre-season games.
You can especially not conclude anything based on how JC is using pre-season games.
And you definately not conclude anything on players that specificly were categorized as not ready, but with huge upside due to mainly athletic ability.


PFF did a podcast before the draft on players that will be drafted higher than expected.

Monti drafted 3 of the 8 players mentioned in the 3rd round. That can be a disaster choice, it can be a huge success or something in between.
Fact of the matter is that an NFL GM decided that the potential upside and fit to system was worth the price and there is no way to draw a conclusion yet.

Reiman has looked good in the 12 role. Adams have had some superior run blocks and some really bad moments in pass-blocking. Jones is struggling to seperate himself in a very upgraded CB room, which was never expected. Give it time, before we conclude anything.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Give it time, before we conclude anything.

Sir, this is a message board.

 

[kerouac9]

You cannot conclude on a 3rd rounder after 2 pre-season games.
You can especially not conclude anything based on how JC is using pre-season games.
And you definately not conclude anything on players that specificly were categorized as not ready, but with huge upside due to mainly athletic ability.

No one is concluding anything. We're just looking at the roster and evaluating.

PFF did a podcast before the draft on players that will be drafted higher than expected.

Oh, well if PFF says it it's probably true and accurate.

Fact of the matter is that an NFL GM decided that the potential upside and fit to system was worth the price and there is no way to draw a conclusion yet.

Couldn't you say the same thing about all Keim's picks? Monti is 4-13 as a GM; maybe we don't conclude he's good at his job and take his choices on faith quite yet?

 

[Chopper0080]

I do not get this doom and gloom over players that have played 2 pre-season games for a coaching staff that doesn't use pre-season games to evaluate team play.

Last year Monti drafted two 3rd rounders with injury history knowing that one of them would only play half the season. No complains. This year, it's all straight to hell.

It creates a log jam of players at a position group which limits the ability of those players to make an impact. Conventional thinking would be that you would structure your position groups so that young players could get snaps so they can outperform veteran players and create rookie cap value.

The other part that made it weird is that he did this with both Tip and Jones which creates two 3rd round picks with inherently limited upside on their rookie deal.

 

[Chopper0080]

I think the flipside argument is that none of the 2023 roster solutions at CB other than Garrett Williams were even close to average. 2nd and 3rd round picks are pretty cheap compared to paying veterans.

My point is that if you believe in your picks and FA signings, Jones is at best CB4 and is likely CB4 until SMB is a FA (2 years I think).

 

[Chopper0080]

My guess is that the group is incredibly questionable top to bottom, so perhaps throwing numbers and hoping was the strategy?

Maybe...just seems odd to cap the impact of your own picks and 2nd most expensive FA signing.

 

[Chopper0080]

No, I'm responding to your direct reply to my post. And what Chopper is saying is exactly my point actually.

We have a coaching staff that is not using pre-season like most people are used to making it next to impossible to evaluate players for us random fans and yet half of this board has already called out players as clear misses and saying Monti made a mistake.

You cannot conclude on a 3rd rounder after 2 pre-season games.
You can especially not conclude anything based on how JC is using pre-season games.
And you definately not conclude anything on players that specificly were categorized as not ready, but with huge upside due to mainly athletic ability.


PFF did a podcast before the draft on players that will be drafted higher than expected.

Monti drafted 3 of the 8 players mentioned in the 3rd round. That can be a disaster choice, it can be a huge success or something in between.
Fact of the matter is that an NFL GM decided that the potential upside and fit to system was worth the price and there is no way to draw a conclusion yet.

Reiman has looked good in the 12 role. Adams have had some superior run blocks and some really bad moments in pass-blocking. Jones is struggling to seperate himself in a very upgraded CB room, which was never expected. Give it time, before we conclude anything.

Was the expectation ever that he would beat out SMB (3 yrs 7.5 mil per year), Garrett Williams (a CB who they said had 1st rnd talent outside of the injury), and Max Melton (who they drafted in round 2)? If so why would you expect a CB to beat out other CBs who the team invested more into acquiring)

 

[kerouac9]

Was the expectation ever that he would beat out SMB (3 yrs 7.5 mil per year), Garrett Williams (a CB who they said had 1st rnd talent outside of the injury), and Max Melton (who they drafted in round 2)? If so why would you expect a CB to beat out other CBs who the team invested more into acquiring)

The steel man argument is you need depth at corner and they didn’t know Thomas and Clark were going to come to camp at the level they did.

Jones is three months older than Clark and five months older than Williams.