QB Preferences

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Mitch

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Mitch,

Let’s hope that the Cards have a more analytical decision-tree than your friend looking for a dance partner when it comes to their QB search. Cards could cycle through every QB out there until they find #14 that finally agrees to dance. That’s not identifying the one you really want and being aggressive in the pursuit. At the time of the dance, I assume your friend was simply looking for someone to dance with and not necessarily thinking that he was going to find his future wife. About the only plan evident was that he started with the nearest girl and circled the room asking until he was on the far end and got a ‘Yes.’ That’s a ‘feel-good’ ending when they married but it doesn’t illustrate any kind of determination to dance with the one you really wanted to dance with. It was serendipity, the occurrence and development of events by chance in a happy or beneficial way, that got your friend married. It illustrates the determination of the door-to-door salesman who stops at 13 houses and then finally makes a magazine subscription sale at house #14.

Cost Breakdown. Your choices don’t include the cost you are willing to expend to reach the goal. For example, you have Foles as your #1 choice and indicate that “if the cost of the trade is too much, then I fully commit myself to door #2.” What is that cost? Got to specify how much you are willing to spend before you then move on. Also, putting a value on each move may have you flipping some of your choices.

Relative Costs. You should be willing to spend more on your #1 choice than on your #2 choice and on down the line. If you want Foles at your first choice, you should be willing to offer more to get him than you would for your #2 choice Jackson. Your starting bid for Foles should be your top bid ceiling for Jackson. You can offer less for Foles but be fully prepared to concede to the top bid ceiling for Jackson and also be willing to negotiate to your top value bid for Foles if need be. (Good luck horse trading with Andy Reid).

Determine a ‘Probability of Availability’ for each QB. Look at your ratings and assume that other QB-needy teams will have your guys rated in a similar fashion. Some teams will have a much higher value on Foles (or any of the other guys) and may be willing to pay those costs above and beyond what you are willing. That approach by other teams will reduce the probability that the QB you want is even going to be available. Foles may be your #1 guy but he is probably the #1 guy for plenty of other teams who have more trade/draft capital than you to pursue him. That’s going to be the big stumbling block for the Cards—we are at #15, have $25-30 mil in cap, have a new coaching staff, lots of hole to fill on an aging roster, etc. We don’t have as many poker chips to sit at the table with a lot of other teams. The available list is going to be culled down for the Cards simply because we can’t afford it. You will have to alter your list in relationship to your available assets . . . unless you want to pull out the credit card (future draft picks) and spend a bunch on this draft.

Looking at your priority list, I’d say that the Cards are down into Taylor-Keenum-McCar choices as to availability given our capital to pursue.

The Right Partner. Which QB matches up with our new coaching staff and talent? We are all familiar with BA and his 'Big Ben' stereotype QB who could launch bombs down the field. At this point, I don't know what SW and McCoy have in mind either with their QB preference or the playbook they are going to install. Is Foles a fit for what they want to accomplish---if not, will have to bump him out of your #1 preference slot.

Got to assign a BPA value when you get down to using that as your criteria for picking between Kyle Lauletta or Luke Falk. Got to like one of these dance partners above the other in order to chose when you are on the draft clock (or when the music starts to play).

Make some ‘No Way’ decisions. If you want to eliminate Cousins because of money, Bradford because health, etc. just wipe them off the possibility list. If not, they will be there when you are looking at dance partner #14.


Haha! You nailed it. Troosh told me that night that all he really wanted to do was dance and that he didn't care whether some women would say no. As you point out, the anecdote is not meant to suggest that the Cardinals wait for their 14th choice. It was just meant to highlight the spirit of busting a move. You know, don't stand in one place and try to let the dance come to you.

You are right---it was serendipity---enabled by action. And I am hoping for the same for the Cardinals!
 
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Mitch

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Warner#Career_statistics_and_records

I think it's important to remember that accuracy and completion % are not synonymous. College completion % is a starting point and indicator but those numbers have to be looked at in context. They can be skewed in either direction based on personnel, scheme, competition, etc.

With Warner, he had such a crazy path to the NFL I don't think we can look at his 1 year of regular playing time and completing 58.4% and learn much. With Jackson and Allen, I think it would be more beneficial to actually look at them throwing passes in games than to just look at their statistics.

Well said, moklerman.
 

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Honest question regarding accuracy, who was the last NFL QB who completed under 60% in college that was considered a top 10 talent at his position in the NFL during his career?

I was looking for Kurt Warner's college numbers as I thought he would be the most likely but couldn't find them.

I did find a couple...Joe Montana and Brett Favre--those are pretty notable of course but that is 40 and 30 years ago. Any recent examples?

I could be way off but I have to believe it is a rare circumstance for someone to not be a high % passer in college to become that in the NFL.


I think you also need to factor in what kind of offense did that QB play in and drops and was his offensive line worth a crap.If a guy plays in a dink and dump scheme he will have a higher completion rate obviously.Of all the QBs in te draft i watched Lamar Jackson for 3 years ( being a Louisville fan) and he played in a offense that tried to go vertical and his OLine was terrible ( started a REDSHIRT Freshman at Center and a true freshman Guard .His receivers dropped a incredible 12 % of his passes and his 10 interceptions 4 came in his last bowl games playing catchup.All in all he is incredibly talented with a gre3at work ethic and character.He could stand to add some more bulk and like every other QB in the draft except Darnold he will need time to learn before starting.All the other QBs all have Pro and CON points.I just hope SK and Wilks decide who they want to be QBOF and draft that player.And then draft another QB later in the draft to develop behind QBOF.
 

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Warner#Career_statistics_and_records

I think it's important to remember that accuracy and completion % are not synonymous. College completion % is a starting point and indicator but those numbers have to be looked at in context. They can be skewed in either direction based on personnel, scheme, competition, etc.

With Warner, he had such a crazy path to the NFL I don't think we can look at his 1 year of regular playing time and completing 58.4% and learn much. With Jackson and Allen, I think it would be more beneficial to actually look at them throwing passes in games than to just look at their statistics.

I understand scheme effecting things (like the Texas Tech offense which is super QB friendly with high completion %).

You are right regarding Warner as he never really got a true shot until he was 27-28 yrs old.

This is where the scouts make their money, tons of film study and doing their due diligence. They better watch EVERY throw of these QBs college careers and then look for those same problems during their private workouts.
 

moklerman

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I certainly don't claim to be able to see who's truly "accurate" in college as it will pertain to the NFL. As much of a crapshoot as draft picks are, I often think that I could do just as bad of a job at it as NFL scouts seem to though. But, if I was looking for a QB that would be one of the first attributes I'd look for and a guy who isn't accurate would scare me off.

But, as Jim Mora once said, you think you know but you really don't. As much as I enjoy "analyzing" draft picks for fun, there's so much more to look at with these guys. I'd go off of gut instinct and eye balls as little as the stats tell you though.

But, in my casual search of this year's QB's there was a stat that one of the top guys had 31 drops by his receivers? Was it Rosen? If true, that's a significant impact on his completion %.

As for the Cardinals, if they decide to draft a QB in the first round I think they'll be getting a good one without moving much(if at all). Not necessarily a good NFL QB but a good draft pick. Which is where you have to start. This year's crop of post 1-2 QB's is...well, pretty incredible in terms of talent. Exciting times. Which is kind of weird considering this year's 1-2 don't actually stand head and shoulders above the rest.
 

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moklerman

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Mayock's take on the QB's

Quarterback

1. Sam Darnold, USC
2. Josh Allen, Wyoming
3. Josh Rosen, UCLA
4. Baker Mayfield, Oklahoma
T-5. Lamar Jackson, Louisville
T-5. Mason Rudolph, Oklahoma State

He's very intrigued by Jackson; says he probably will never be the most accurate QB, but makes up for that inaccuracy with his electric runs.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000916367/article/mike-mayocks-2018-nfl-draft-position-rankings
Which is something that I have a hard time accepting. After paying attention to Deshaun Watson last year because of FFL though, it's hard to ignore. That threat of a home run at ANY time is powerful. It affects a defense and opens things up that wouldn't normally be there.

If Jackson can stay healthy...so many electric playmakers haven't been able to hold up. Hard not to fear that with him too. Wilson and Prescott seem to be holding up so far but it's pretty rare for guys who run with any regularity.
 

AsUpRoDiGy

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Which is something that I have a hard time accepting. After paying attention to Deshaun Watson last year because of FFL though, it's hard to ignore. That threat of a home run at ANY time is powerful. It affects a defense and opens things up that wouldn't normally be there.

If Jackson can stay healthy...so many electric playmakers haven't been able to hold up. Hard not to fear that with him too. Wilson and Prescott seem to be holding up so far but it's pretty rare for guys who run with any regularity.
With a QB like Jackson...you have to run an offense that specifically suits his talent. Which means you would be counting on him to run quite a bit to make up for his deficiencies as a QB. I just don't know if he can survive in the NFL running that type of offense.
 

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I think we are blessed not screwed, there are a lot of possible NFL caliber starting QBs availablecompared to most years, 1st round drafted, SB mvp, experienced quality QBs with elite talent. Yea they have health history and flaws but Bradford, Foles are great options with many years left- I see cousins as another Kolb - just feels that way to me ?

I want an elite system like Steelers or Patriots where many different players win year in and year out - I don’t know what Wikes plans to hunt, kill and clean - but I hope he sets the table for players to eat. I am encouraged by his prioritizing rushing the ball.
 

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I think we are blessed not screwed, there are a lot of possible NFL caliber starting QBs availablecompared to most years, 1st round drafted, SB mvp, experienced quality QBs with elite talent. Yea they have health history and flaws but Bradford, Foles are great options with many years left- I see cousins as another Kolb - just feels that way to me ?

I want an elite system like Steelers or Patriots where many different players win year in and year out - I don’t know what Wikes plans to hunt, kill and clean - but I hope he sets the table for players to eat. I am encouraged by his prioritizing rushing the ball.
Those elite systems work in large part because they have Hall of Fame QBs in Tom Brady and Ben Roethlisberger.

That is one of the reasons to trade up to #1 and get Sam Darnold.
 

THESMEL

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Those elite systems work in large part because they have Hall of Fame QBs in Tom Brady and Ben Roethlisberger.

That is one of the reasons to trade up to #1 and get Sam Darnold.

Yea but how would those QBs fair in different systems? I’m just saying Bradford, Bridgewater, Gabbert were 1st round draft picks - I could see any of them developed into elite QBs in either of them systems - BA and Whiz had QB killing systems - and lesser QBs than Kurt and Palmer did not do well! I think Stanton should still be in play, and even Barkly as far as talent for the buck

- but Gabbert in the same system for the first time in like 7 years - would be intriguing - a system that prioritizes the run game. First round talent wothout Bridgewater and Bradford’s health history- foles is proven in my book - Gabbert and foles competing would be fantastic - a lot of great options - we are blessed
 

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Those elite systems work in large part because they have Hall of Fame QBs in Tom Brady and Ben Roethlisberger.

That is one of the reasons to trade up to #1 and get Sam Darnold.
Look at what you just said though. How does Tom Brady(6th round) and Ben Roethlisberger(mid 1st) warrant trading up to #1?
 

THESMEL

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Look at what you just said though. How does Tom Brady(6th round) and Ben Roethlisberger(mid 1st) warrant trading up to #1?

Sam Darnold would be a good choice, but the NFL has a great system to create competitiveness - worst team drafting first - rarely when you cheat that at full price , does it work out well for teams. That is fundamental football team management, whenever Keim gets to cute - we pay in the long run - for every honey badger risk, their is the other side of the coins risk - long term it is lost value. A team could follow the average of player rankings across several scouting sites- and field a championship team - just ask quick as fail like the browns, by being cute.

Both Steelers and Patriots are known to draft within these fundamental guidelines, rarely shooting for the moon. Develop players and get great value for back ups
 

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Look at what you just said though. How does Tom Brady(6th round) and Ben Roethlisberger(mid 1st) warrant trading up to #1?

Trading up that far just increases your options, and thus the odds that you select the right guy. It is not a bulletproof method, as you prove, but it ensures that you get the guy you want the most.
 

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Look at what you just said though. How does Tom Brady(6th round) and Ben Roethlisberger(mid 1st) warrant trading up to #1?
You have to find a top option some how. I think Darnold is a special talent. That is why I would move up to get him. I wouldn't trade up to #6 to get Mayfield or Allen. It's not that I think they can't be decent NFL QBs, but I don't see them as special players.
 

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Yea but how would those QBs fair in different systems? I’m just saying Bradford, Bridgewater, Gabbert were 1st round draft picks - I could see any of them developed into elite QBs in either of them systems - BA and Whiz had QB killing systems - and lesser QBs than Kurt and Palmer did not do well! I think Stanton should still be in play, and even Barkly as far as talent for the buck

- but Gabbert in the same system for the first time in like 7 years - would be intriguing - a system that prioritizes the run game. First round talent wothout Bridgewater and Bradford’s health history- foles is proven in my book - Gabbert and foles competing would be fantastic - a lot of great options - we are blessed
I'd be intrigued if McCoy could get more out of Gabberts' game then the previous regime, and with a better/healthy OL. Not saying as a starter, but a b/u. Don't think it will happen.
 

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Honest question regarding accuracy, who was the last NFL QB who completed under 60% in college that was considered a top 10 talent at his position in the NFL during his career?

I was looking for Kurt Warner's college numbers as I thought he would be the most likely but couldn't find them.

I did find a couple...Joe Montana and Brett Favre--those are pretty notable of course but that is 40 and 30 years ago. Any recent examples?

I could be way off but I have to believe it is a rare circumstance for someone to not be a high % passer in college to become that in the NFL.
The most recent one I can think of is Michael Vick. Accuracy can not be taught I don’t think. Unless you’re incredible athlete, I don’t think you should be a top qb.
 

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I would do a Kolb like deal for Foles. Thing about Foles is he's 6'6" 250. Dude is a tank and his feet are underrated. He's not going to scramble much but he avoids pressure and can hit guy when he's off balance. In the NFCCG he looked like Big Ben out there.

He's under contract next year and could be franchised after that if they don't want to extend him right away. It won't happen until draft day if he's dealt. The Eagles need to wait as long as possible to see how Wentz is progressing in April.
 

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I would do a Kolb like deal for Foles. Thing about Foles is he's 6'6" 250. Dude is a tank and his feet are underrated. He's not going to scramble much but he avoids pressure and can hit guy when he's off balance. In the NFCCG he looked like Big Ben out there.

He's under contract next year and could be franchised after that if they don't want to extend him right away. It won't happen until draft day if he's dealt. The Eagles need to wait as long as possible to see how Wentz is progressing in April.

its not likely they wait... they dont have the option to franchise Foles next year. the way his contract is written, if he is on the Eagles roster the first day of the 2019 league year his entire contract voids...if the contract voids they no longer own his rights....voiding is different from expiring.

plus... they will strike while the iron is hot...and right now Nick is hot.... the only way he stays in Philly is if he really wants to....

my home boy Nate Sudfield will step up as backup QB.... in limited play he has 82% completions and 134 yds...0 TD's and 0 INT's

rumor has it carson Wentz is already jogging...he will be ready for opening day...he had ditched the crutches and started throwing even by the super bowl.
 

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its not likely they wait... they dont have the option to franchise Foles next year. the way his contract is written, if he is on the Eagles roster the first day of the 2019 league year his entire contract voids...if the contract voids they no longer own his rights....voiding is different from expiring.

plus... they will strike while the iron is hot...and right now Nick is hot.... the only way he stays in Philly is if he really wants to....

my home boy Nate Sudfield will step up as backup QB.... in limited play he has 82% completions and 134 yds...0 TD's and 0 INT's

rumor has it carson Wentz is already jogging...he will be ready for opening day...he had ditched the crutches and started throwing even by the super bowl.

So even though the Cards couldn't franchise him for the 2019 season, he'd still be under contract for a 5m cap hit for 2018?
 

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The most recent one I can think of is Michael Vick. Accuracy can not be taught I don’t think. Unless you’re incredible athlete, I don’t think you should be a top qb.

I agree for the most part, but the numbers can be deceiving. If a QB has to run for his life often, he'll be throwing plenty of balls away just to avoid the sack, or balls batted down. If he has poor receivers there could be plenty of drops, his style of offense that team runs could affect the numbers. So because the numbers are so arbitrary, it is possible for a QBs numbers to inflate or deflate when they arrive, but neither of these indicate that their accuracy is better or worse.
 

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Mitch so you’re doing a 360 on Baker now? lol

Is that because we hired Wilkes or because of McCoy? Btw McCoy ran so much shotgun in previous stops that BM is prolly the perfect fit in case you didn’t know :mrgreen: Just sayin
 
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Mitch so you’re doing a 360 on Baker now? lol

Is that because we hired Wilkes or because of McCoy? Btw McCoy ran so much shotgun in previous stops that BM is prolly the perfect fit in case you didn’t know :mrgreen: Just sayin

Yes, in recent weeks, after looking deeper into Mayfield and trying to project his prospects as a pro, I have become skeptical. You are right on in thinking that I am concerned about him being a fit with Wilks and McCoy---and to me that answer is a clear no. After watching Mayfield at the Senior Bowl, I liked his arm, per usual, but I started to realize that he's not fast or quick enough to escape the kind of speed and pressure he will see in the NFL.

Imo, it doesn't help his cause that he sent some scathing tweets to NFL Network's Bucky Brooks in response to some of Brooks' concerns. Some might laud this as Mayfield's competitiveness...but I see it as an on-going maturity issue.
 

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Yes, in recent weeks, after looking deeper into Mayfield and trying to project his prospects as a pro, I have become skeptical. You are right on in thinking that I am concerned about him being a fit with Wilks and McCoy---and to me that answer is a clear no. After watching Mayfield at the Senior Bowl, I liked his arm, per usual, but I started to realize that he's not fast or quick enough to escape the kind of speed and pressure he will see in the NFL.

Imo, it doesn't help his cause that he sent some scathing tweets to NFL Network's Bucky Brooks in response to some of Brooks' concerns. Some might laud this as Mayfield's competitiveness...but I see it as an on-going maturity issue.
Yeah, going tid for tat with evaluaters raises a flag. Agree.

But it is surely not the end of evaluating in his case. There is plenty more.
 

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So even though the Cards couldn't franchise him for the 2019 season, he'd still be under contract for a 5m cap hit for 2018?
if we traded for him,...we could tag him... the Eagles wont have the right to tag him if they keep him... the wording of the contract voids the contract if he is on the eagles roster on the 23 days before league year 2019...if he is traded, the last three years of his contract kick in... at least that is my understanding of it... I am assuming any trade would come with a new contract for foles.... that contract was designed so the eagles could spread the cap hit but Foles was not locked in to the eagles for more than two years

here are the details...

Contract Notes:
  • $7M fully guaranteed at signing (signing bonus+ 2017 salary + 2018 roster bonus)
  • 2018 Roster Bonus: $3M (due 3/18)
  • 2019-2021 years automatically void if on the roster 23 days before the 2019 league year
  • Annual Incentives:
    Comp. % of at least 62.5%: $250,000
    50% Snaps in a Playoff Game: $250,000
    57.5% of regular season snaps: $250,000
    8 wins: $500,000
    9+ wins: $750,000
    2,200-3,499 Pass Yards: $250,000
    $3,500+ Pass Yards: $500,000
    15-18 Pass TDs: $250,000
    19+ Pass TDs: $500,000
  • Base Escalator224+ Pass Attempts + 62.5% Completion Rate: $500,000
    Additional $500,000 for 50% of playoff snaps
 

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