Reality Check

[conraddobler]

From what Graves said he was the man in last years draft. He and Denny put together a best 100 list and he was the FINAL approver.

Oh yeah I do that with my kids trout fishing, I bait the hook, I throw the hook out and hand them the pole, they reel in the fish.

I don't care who's at the phones working the list, the fact is the list is the key, and before DG they didn't do it that way BTW.

So DG wanders by and his brilliance sorts the list out and Rod picks the guy on the list only this year there is no DG to help with the list.

This is like a bad Disney movie when the flubber stops working.

 

[kerouac9]

Why is it when someone wants to beat on Graves, they have to go back in time? Could it be that maybe he's been doing a good job lately and there's nothing to complain about? Everyone has a learning curve and if people insist on pointing out past faux paus, they also need to give credit for current good deeds.

So I guess my question to you is, are you saying Graves had little on nothing to do with the draft picks and free agent signings and if so, where did you get that information?

Define "back in time" 40. I think that a lot of us were on Graves for shutting down free agency too early (like without getting a backup CB who can play or a warm body with any experience as backup LT or anyone to compete with Huff for the WLB job). I know that it wasn't four months ago that Graves said that this team wasn't a player or two away from competing during the season.

I mean, I guess that he hasn't screwed up anything serious in the past 3 months or so, but is that really a reason to give him a shiny three-year contract?

 

[BACH]

Funny how Green is gone he was just an afterthought, didn't do anything but fail to coach up these great players...

That's fairly revisionist excuse me.

So let me get this straight, when Green did questionable things like can Kendal and LJ that was allowed due to supporting the coach, yet when he wanted to draft a player he just looked at the board and said, yippee that's awesome good pick Rod and Steve you guys are so good.

Oh my.

Where did I say that?

I clearly stated the I believe the draft process was a coorperation between Green, Graves and Keim. I then provided facts that indicate that if someone was head of the draft process, it was Keim and not Green like most seem to think on this board.

Green did have an impact on the drafts and he helped improve the drafts, but my point was that he doesn't deserve all the credit as the Graves bashers think he does.

 

[BACH]

The same Jonathan Lewis who was inactive for the entire season and we had to sign Cooper off the street, who was put on the active roster for the last half-dozen or so games of the season? That Jonathan Lewis?

Great pick, Rod.

Yet another post, where you changes the subject after running out of arguementation to support your opinion.

I'm not sure how you can blame someone for drafting a DT in the 6th round that was on the roster for the entire year, despite DL being the deepest position on the team.

I also not sure about how you can compare a DT to a 3-4 DE that plays DT on passing downs and DE on rushing downs.

But since you blame Graves for drafting Lewis. That also means you acknowledge that he was in charge of the draft.

So, with your acknowledgement of Graves being in charge of the draft, I'm curious to know....
What do you think about Graves' picks in the first 4 rounds? Leinart, Lutui, Pope, Watson

 

[40yearfan]

Define "back in time" 40. I think that a lot of us were on Graves for shutting down free agency too early (like without getting a backup CB who can play or a warm body with any experience as backup LT or anyone to compete with Huff for the WLB job). I know that it wasn't four months ago that Graves said that this team wasn't a player or two away from competing during the season.

I mean, I guess that he hasn't screwed up anything serious in the past 3 months or so, but is that really a reason to give him a shiny three-year contract?

So you would rather wipe the slate clean and start all over again. Another 3 years to try and build a winner. In essence, what you are saying is that this team has no chance of becoming a winner with it's current crop of players and we need a complete makeover starting with the GM.

That's where we disagree. I think we have the nucleus and all we need is a disiplinarian type of coach to whip these guys into shape. Someone that will play only the players who perform, not have favorites, and make players personally responsible for their on field perfomances. Also someone with some fire and passion on the sidelines who can instill that passion to win into the players themselves.

As for Graves himself, the draft is rapidly approaching and we will be able to determine for ourselves how he does. Same thing for free agency. At least we will have some continuity and a chance to win in 2007.

 

[joeshmo]

Define "back in time" 40. I think that a lot of us were on Graves for shutting down free agency too early (like without getting a backup CB who can play or a warm body with any experience as backup LT or anyone to compete with Huff for the WLB job).

This I will stick up for Graves on.

That decision was not his, it came from higher powers. Whether he made a big enough fuss about is a debatable issue though, but would only be an issue of conjectures.

From what many of the AZ Cards media types have stated, Graves and Green were both fully ready to bring in more free agents until they were both told to shut it down.

 

[chickenhead]

I'm not sure I've ever posted anything negative about Graves; I don't even know if I've posted about Graves specifically. But he's been VP since reallignment, and our division isn't exactly known as the best. Here's us compared to our closest competition:

Cardinals .313
49ers .375
Rams .513
Seahawks .600

Only one of those seasons showed an improvement in record, and three of them were downturns. If you compare it to other divisions, it only gets worse. We can debate all we want about whose hands are tied, and how responsibility for this should be allocated, but the bottom line is that compared to other organizations the Cardinals are ineffective--and it's hard to give anyone a whole lot of credit.

 

[Wild Card]

I'm not sure I've ever posted anything negative about Graves; I don't even know if I've posted about Graves specifically. But he's been VP since reallignment, and our division isn't exactly known as the best. Here's us compared to our closest competition:

Cardinals .313
49ers .375
Rams .513
Seahawks .600

Only one of those seasons showed an improvement in record, and three of them were downturns. If you compare it to other divisions, it only gets worse. We can debate all we want about whose hands are tied, and how responsibility for this should be allocated, but the bottom line is that compared to other organizations the Cardinals are ineffective--and it's hard to give anyone a whole lot of credit.

CH:

Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner.

It's baffling to me how much time and energy has been expended, on this thread and elsewhere, trying to properly allocate credit and blame among the current and former members of the Cardinals management and coaching staff.

The bottom line, as they say, is the bottom line. And this franchise has lost far more games than it's won for decades. My take is, you can blame everyone associated with the Cards in a position of authority during their tenure in Arizona and not be too far off the mark.

Here's a challenge. Look at the entire Cards organization and roster, from ownership to the practice squad, and identify those individuals that you'd retain for an expansion team given a blank slate and unlimited checkbook. Other than a handful of players, I don't see a lot of keepers.

WC

 

[Stout]

Another thing.... All the people having selective memories about Graves are a joke. I'm serious! I have yet to get any explanation how drafting Pace was all Graves fault, while Boldin wasn't Graves' pick. Graves has had good decisions and bad decisions. (BTW... BJ wasn't a reach at #17, only Pace at #18)

Reports were that a scout practically begged us to take Boldin, and that was the reason we selected him.

Lest ye forget, we not only screwed the pooch in the first that year, but we traded BACK in the 2nd AND gave up a 3rd just to make that trade. Makes me retch. Probably the worst draft-day trade ever. We're lucky Q fell to that later pick in round 2.

 

[kerouac9]

So you would rather wipe the slate clean and start all over again. Another 3 years to try and build a winner. In essence, what you are saying is that this team has no chance of becoming a winner with it's current crop of players and we need a complete makeover starting with the GM.

That's where we disagree. I think we have the nucleus and all we need is a disiplinarian type of coach to whip these guys into shape. Someone that will play only the players who perform, not have favorites, and make players personally responsible for their on field perfomances. Also someone with some fire and passion on the sidelines who can instill that passion to win into the players themselves.

As for Graves himself, the draft is rapidly approaching and we will be able to determine for ourselves how he does. Same thing for free agency. At least we will have some continuity and a chance to win in 2007.

I'm sorry, 40, but where do I say that this team has no chance of becoming a winner with it's current crop of players? I have said that this team has no chance of becoming a winner with Graves as VP football operations, but you can put as many words into my mouth as you need to, I guess.

I think that the players on the roster deserve better leadership and support from the front office, and seasons with a 6-10, 5-11, 5-11 record illustrate that the front office, where Rod Graves has sole responsibility, has failed to give that support to guys like Anquan Boldin and Adrian Wilson, and I think that it's just a shame that Graves is still going to be in place and failing to give these guys support for another three years while the primes of their careers are wasted.

 

[Pariah]

I'm sorry, 40, but where do I say that this team has no chance of becoming a winner with it's current crop of players?

I'll say it. Unless we get at least one cover-corner in here and a better player than Huff at WLB, then we don't have a chance at a championship. None.

 

[kerouac9]

Maybe, Jason, but I don't think we need to raze the team and begin anew with only a handful of the guys currently on the roster. I don't believe this team needs a "complete makeover starting with GM." I think this team needs a new GM.

 

[Pariah]

Maybe, Jason, but I don't think we need to raze the team and begin anew with only a handful of the guys currently on the roster.

Not at all. I'm even okay if we left the current starting OL in place (I'd rather see a RT and C upgrade, but I could live with Wells and Leckey next year).

 

[Wild Card]

Maybe, Jason, but I don't think we need to raze the team and begin anew with only a handful of the guys currently on the roster. I don't believe this team needs a "complete makeover starting with GM." I think this team needs a new GM.

K9:

I couldn't agree more. Questions of personality and style aside, Rod Graves is the only remaining constant--besides ownership--in the senior management of this team during the failed coaching tenures of Dave McGinnis and Dennis Green. And much as I might wish otherwise, we can't fire the Bidwills.

WC

 

[BACH]

Reports were that a scout practically begged us to take Boldin, and that was the reason we selected him.

Lest ye forget, we not only screwed the pooch in the first that year, but we traded BACK in the 2nd AND gave up a 3rd just to make that trade. Makes me retch. Probably the worst draft-day trade ever. We're lucky Q fell to that later pick in round 2.

Ehh... No! Hayes was our 3rd rounder.

 

[blindseyed]

K9:

I couldn't agree more. Questions of personality and style aside, Rod Graves is the only remaining constant--besides ownership--in the senior management of this team during the failed coaching tenures of Dave McGinnis and Dennis Green. And much as I might wish otherwise, we can't fire the Bidwills.

WC

Bingo!
We're defending and bitching about Graves (which is good) but he's a puppet, a 'Yes" man, it's the higher ups that allow this year after year after year after year. People can paint a rosey picture that we're close etc...but sorry to burst the bubble, we're not. We have great players that are wasting away because of terrible decisions made at the top! Coaches that are hired who suck, assistants that suck and all the time ownership having final say in all this. Ego and power are tricky things. We may be a few players away but will the higher ups let the new coach get the ones we need here? Doubt it, they've picked just enough every year to keep some people in the seats. Like WC just said "And much as I might wish otherwise, we can't fire the Bidwills"

 

[Stout]

Ehh... No! Hayes was our 3rd rounder.

You're right, I had the round wrong. We gave up a 4th rounder, not a 3rd. Still a suicidal trade.

We gave: #6 overall
Traded BACK in the 2nd round
4th rounder
We got: #17 and #18 overall.

We got HOSED.

 

[Duckjake]

K9:

I couldn't agree more. Questions of personality and style aside, Rod Graves is the only remaining constant--besides ownership--in the senior management of this team during the failed coaching tenures of Dave McGinnis and Dennis Green. And much as I might wish otherwise, we can't fire the Bidwills.

WC

Graves was with the team during Tobin's time as well.

The Fitzgerald selection is a good indicator to me that Green was calling the shots in the draft, at least for the first year. Otherwise why would the team pass on a QBOF or a potential star defender for another Wide Receiver?

In response to the "cheap" argument the Cardinals have been taken to task for spending a lot of money on one or two "name" players and far less on everyone else. The rumor that FA was stopped after the Edge signing would be evidence to support that assertion.

That was also seem to be the case with the big money given to Larry Centers, Jake Plummer, Kwamie Lassiter (franchise tag), Emmit Smith and Kurt Warner, all either big names or fan favorites. It would also help explain why the Cardinals special teams coverage and return units have been bad for more than a decade-poor depth. The Cardinals themselves have admitted that they did not have the income stream to compete with other owners.

As for holdouts, a source supposedly close to the team, said for years that the Cardinals did not have the money to pay signing bonuses until the TV money was distributed by the league in early September. Those of you who read the old AOL Cards Corner board will remember that.

This of course is all speculation by third parties and as usual with Pro Sports we'll never know the "rest of the story". But all this was before the first year's income from the Frat House was completely realized so things may change drastically this offseason.

Meanwhile, as fans we get to suffer with the knowledge that since 1997 our favorite team has won exactly 10 regular season games against teams that finished that season with a winning record.

 

[Billy Flynt]

You can't argue that Graves is a bad GM because that does not seem to be his role. Even though I'm in Virginia, I read the same newspaper articles, web sites, magazines, etc. as the rest of you. I don't think anyone here can truly explain what Graves' job description is. But we do know it is not a GM like the rest of the league.

Even if you want to dump the 2003 "trade down" draft on Graves, here's the players drafted between Johnson/Pace and Boldin.

Who are the outstanding perennial pro bowl players that we should have drafted instead? BTW - remember we needed receiver help and a pass rush at this time. With the exception of LJ (didn't bloom until year 2) and McGahee (roll of dice with a blown knee) there is no one on this list that was an obvious choice.

19 Baltimore Kyle Boller QB California
20 Denver George Foster OT Georgia
21 Cleveland Jeff Faine C Notre Dame
22 Chicago Rex Grossman QB Florida
23 Buffalo Willis McGahee RB Miami (Fla.)
24 Indianapolis Dallas Clark TE Iowa
25 N.Y. Giants William Joseph DT Miami (Fla.)
26 San Francisco Kwame Harris OT Stanford
27 Kansas City Larry Johnson RB Penn State
28 Tennessee Andre Woolfolk CB Oklahoma
29 Green Bay Nick Barnett OLB Oregon State
30 San Diego Sammy Davis CB Texas A&M
31 Oakland Nnamdi Asomugha CB California
32 Oakland Tyler Brayton DE Colorado
33 Cincinnati Eric Steinbach G Iowa
34 Detroit Boss Bailey OLB Georgia
35 Chicago Charles Tillman CB Louisiana-Lafayette
36 New England Eugene Wilson CB Illinois
37 New Orleans Jonathan Stinchcomb OT Georgia
38 Dallas Al Johnson C Wisconsin
39 Jacksonville Rashean Mathis FS Bethune-Cookman
40 Minnesota E.J. Henderson ILB Maryland
41 Houston Bennie Joppru TE Michigan
42 Seattle Ken Hamlin FS Arkansas
43 St. Louis Pisa Tinoisamoa OLB Hawaii
44 Washington Taylor Jacobs WR Florida
45 New England Bethel Johnson WR Texas A&M
46 San Diego Drayton Florence CB Tuskegee
47 Kansas City Kawika Mitchell ILB South Florida
48 Buffalo Chris Kelsay DE Nebraska
49 Miami Eddie Moore OLB Tennessee
50 Carolina Bruce Nelson C Iowa
51 Denver Terry Pierce ILB Kansas State
52 Cleveland Chaun Thompson OLB West Texas A&M
53 N.Y. Jets Victor Hobson OLB Michigan

 

[ajcardfan]

I sure wish we had Reshean Mathis. But, he was from small school and we had the "great" Duane Starks on board. There would've been a great outcry over picking him as well.

 

[Wild Card]

Graves was with the team during Tobin's time as well.

DJ:

But Rod Graves had far less apparent authority/responsibility during Vince Tobin's tenure as the Cardinals HC, with GM Bob Ferguson taking the lead role on most personnel-related matters.

Interestingly, Cards ownership had no problem showing Ferguson the door in January 2003 after four consecutive losing seasons, during which the team's record was 21-43. On the other hand, Graves has just been awarded a three-year extension after four consecutive losing seasons, during which the team's record has been 20-44.

Go figure.

WC

 

[Duckjake]

DJ:

But Rod Graves had far less apparent authority/responsibility during Vince Tobin's tenure as the Cardinals HC, with GM Bob Ferguson taking the lead role on most personnel-related matters.

Interestingly, Cards ownership had no problem showing Ferguson the door in January 2003 after four consecutive losing seasons, during which the team's record was 21-43. On the other hand, Graves has just been awarded a three-year extension after four consecutive losing seasons, during which the team's record has been 20-44.

Go figure.

WC

One thing about Graves is that he was supposed to be close with Vince's brother Bill from his days in Chicago. I wonder if he had any more influence because of that relationship and Ferguson was just a lame duck at the time. I know Bill sure looked like it in photos from that last season with the team.

But you're right the extension doesn't really make any sense.

 

[Pariah]

Who are the outstanding perennial pro bowl players that we should have drafted instead?

We shouldn't have traded. We should have drafted Suggs. It's that simple. It was the right choice at the time and it was the right choice in hindsight.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

I've scanned through this thread and this is what i've got out of it. Mitch doesn't like Green . He doesn't think we should ever hire a coach like Parcells or Belichik because they delegate and don't jump around on the sidelines screaming over every play. Skorp likes Graves because he's a nice guy and answers e-mails. That doesn't necessarily make him a good GM. Those are very good qualities but i'd just assume have an a-hole running the team if they could turn the Cards around. The NFL is a cut-throat business and you have to play the game that way.Alot of people don't like Graves because of his poor performance. The thing is is that there is no real middle ground.You either like Graves or dislike him. I'll list some of the reasons i don't like Graves as a GM. His approach to free agency in the past was to bring a guy in,interview him and let him leave. Graves said he had to wait for a background check to be completed before making an offer. That is total lack of preparation.When you bring a guy in you should be ready to roll with an offer. The trade down in the draft is another black mark.It's been hashed over and over so i'll let it speak for itself. Another thing i didn't like was his we're going to try and build the belly of the team approach to free agency. That's just saying we're bringing cheap guys nobody else wants and trying to put a positive spin on it. There's no denying the fact that prior to Green's arrival that the talent base was, by enormous measures, the worst in the NFL. I don't think it's coincidence that the talent level has increased significantly after DG arrived.You can put blinders on (Mitch) and think that's not the case but the fact is that it is the case. In fact over the least 3 years i have given Graves credit for going into the background, working with Green, and letting DG build the team to NFL standards. The reason i am now worried is that Graves' past record in talent evaluation has been pretty abysmal. From drafting Rick Mirer to re-signing guys that,after they left the Cards never sniffed another NFL roster, his misses have far outnumbered his hits.

 

[Skkorpion]

Well done Stout. Once again, without a shred of evidence and no source to quote, you drag out the tired old line that some unnamed scout had to beg Graves to draft Bolden.

Find a credible source for once in your life and put it here. Otherwise, have some class for a change and quit quoting internet rumor as fact. My guess is you'll fail at both. You have a long track record of baseless accusations.

And cbus, you choose to ignore half of what I write. I have clearly stated way back in this thread that IMO Rod Graves is responsible for many of the good things that have happened in the Cards organization for the last few years. I cannot prove them. But it is not just that I think Rod Graves is just a nice guy. I think he is competent in his job and have often stated so.

But you, and about six others choose to belittle me by misrepresenting my statements and those of anyone else who disagrees with you about Graves. I just like Graves because "he's a nice guy." Way to go to suggest I'm dumb and shallow. Thanks cbus, how does it feel to go through life being so intellectually superior to anyone else?

You don't like Rod. We get it. Over and over and over ad infinitum. You are free to continue to bash. I just figured it was time someone told you it gets boring and beating it to death doesn't make you right.

I'm through letting you and Stout and a few others spew your vitriol unchallenged. That's my fault for letting it happen. And no, I'm not trying to chase you away. You are Cards fans. It's just from now on, when someone rips the Cards using crappy unverifiable sources, it won't go unchallenged.

Welcome to 2007. We are all in this together and we all hope it gets better. By the way, I will ban myself for two weeks after the super bowl for repeatedly insulting posters.