Scola trade to Pacers Imminent

[elindholm]

Those are all great examples of bad models but is any model worse than a team who is one of the most winning franchises in all of sports without a title? By default, almost any model is better than the Suns model.

So you'd rather be the Wizards, who won a title before you were born and have been lousy ever since? Really?

 

[AzStevenCal]

Those are all great examples of bad models but is any model worse than a team who is one of the most winning franchises in all of sports without a title? By default, almost any model is better than the Suns model.

Disagree. I would take our history over that of many franchises, even several that have won championships. I know many fans say nothing matters but a championship but I just don't understand that thinking and I really don't think it's all that valid. I really doubt that a franchise such as Portland (for example) comes off a horrible year and fans say, oh well, at least we won a championship back in the 70's. Bad seasons are bad seasons and good seasons are still good seasons even if there is no title when the curtain closes. I think the hope of a possible championship in the near future is far more important than the distant memory of a title in the past. Unfortunately, right now, we have neither the hope nor the memory.

Steve

 

[sunsfan88]

OK, that is a good point. However, once in a while you will see a guy take slightly less to play for a good organization. The Suns are not one of those teams any longer. All things being equal (not counting big men getting the max), the Suns will have to overpay for a guy if it comes to the Suns and another team IMO. That is "being the Suns" under Sarver and is probably a more appropriate example.

So your saying if the Suns were owned by Mark Cuban or some other "cool owner" then the Suns won't have to overpay if it comes to the Suns and another team?

The only reason that a free agent might pick another team or make the Suns overpay would be because a) the other team has a bigger market (NY, LA, HOU etc) OR b) that team is very close to being a contender or already is one.

The Suns are still considered one of the best organizations in sports and a very classy one. Its not like its Washington or Charlotte here.

 

[Covert Rain]

So you'd rather be the Wizards, who won a title before you were born and have been lousy ever since? Really?

Disagree. I would take our history over that of many franchises, even several that have won championships. I know many fans say nothing matters but a championship but I just don't understand that thinking and I really don't think it's all that valid. I really doubt that a franchise such as Portland (for example) comes off a horrible year and fans say, oh well, at least we won a championship back in the 70's. Bad seasons are bad seasons and good seasons are still good seasons even if there is no title when the curtain closes. I think the hope of a possible championship in the near future is far more important than the distant memory of a title in the past. Unfortunately, right now, we have neither the hope nor the memory.

Steve

Title...Title...Title. That is the ultimate goal and the entire point. One title is better than none.

The Suns are still considered one of the best organizations in sports and a very classy one.

Not anymore. Go back and read the stories during the last bargaining agreement talks. From owners to players they thought the Suns were a joke mainly because of Sarver. When the Suns had a ton of cap room and could afford to sign multiple max players we didn't even get a sniff. If you don't think Sarver as seriously tarnished the Suns organization you have not been paying attention.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Yep, the Bulls too. Well, 17 years. What's remarkable is how many high picks the Bulls have had, and whiffed on, during that time. 1999 Elton Brand at #1 (not a whiff, but they didn't build around him long-term, either) 2000 Marcus Fizer at #4, 2001 Eddy Curry at #4, 2002 Jay Williams at #2, 2004 Ben Gordon at #3, 2006 Tyrus Thomas at #4. I doubt any franchise has ever achieved so little with so many top-four picks. Of course, this is the Bulls we're talking about, and they won championships with Jordan, so therefore they are eternally brilliant by definition.

Meanwhile both Miami and Dallas found one key player in the draft and built around him through trades and free agency. Boston did the same thing too with Pierce. It doesn't even have to be the best player in the league just a really good one.

 

[Phrazbit]

Ha ha. Go look at the plus/minus in the beginning of the season when Rubio was a sub. The subs were all positive playing with Rubio. The starters were negative playing with Love. Love went positive after Rubio started. But don't let facts get in the way of a good story. And why did the team ABSOLUTELY COLLAPSE after Rubio was injured. Couldn't Love carry them? And why when the Heat came to town after Rubio had only played TWO GAMES in the NBA did LeBron take great pains to guard him. Here, I'll make it easy for you. Because Rubio was what made them go. And what made them win.

lol, I am sorry that Love had a negative plus minus while dragging Darko, Beasley and Wes Johnson around... shame on him.

Ricky Rubio basically guards himself, the guy is one of the worst shooting guards in the NBA, a horrific 36% career shooter, he is in the bottom third of point guards in turnover ratio. And as for the season in question... the Wolves best player in terms of production when they are in and out of the game... Kevin Love, with a rating four times that of the Spanish "savior".

http://www.82games.com/1112/1112MIN.HTM

And this year the T-Wolves were a .500 team with Love, even as diminished as he was... how did they play with Rubio? 18-39... ouch... And a better plus minus with JJ Barea on the court over Ricky.

But hey, "dont let facts get in the way of a good story".

When Rubio stops denting the rim with his bricks and passing to the wrong team... maybe we can start to discuss him being the an impact player in Minnesota.

 

[Cheesebeef]

The Suns are still considered one of the best organizations in sports and a very classy one.

I really don't believe this to be the case. With JC, we were one of the best organizations in sports. players wanted to come here...players took one year deals on really cheap contracts to play here because they knew JC would take care of them, no matter what (as he did with Manning even after he blew out his knee in 1995). Sarver doesn't carry anywhere NEAR that kind of clout.

 

[sunsfan88]

Not anymore. Go back and read the stories during the last bargaining agreement talks. From owners to players they thought the Suns were a joke mainly because of Sarver. When the Suns had a ton of cap room and could afford to sign multiple max players we didn't even get a sniff. If you don't think Sarver as seriously tarnished the Suns organization you have not been paying attention.

Both Dudley and McDonough both talked about how players still want to play for the Suns. McDonough even said in his opening presser that he was shocked at how many coaches wanted to interview for the Suns HC considering that they were a team in a bad situation having missed playoffs last 3 years and everything.

Now sure neither of them would say that "Nobody wants to play for the Suns" but its not like either was asked if they thought free agents want to play for the Suns, they made these comments completely independently.

Dudley said Phoenix will remain an attractive free agent destination, which could include him someday.

http://www.azcentral.com/sports/sun...rom-phoenix-suns-to-los-angeles-clippers.html

McDonough believes Phoenix is still an attractive destination for potential free agents, but even more than that feels like the Suns are in excellent position to acquire a star, be it through free agency or a trade.

"When teams have maybe a disgruntled superstar, what are they looking for in return? Well, they're looking for picks, that's what they want."
Of course, there don't appear to be any players like that on the market right now, but that does not mean there won't be in the coming months.

"I think we're well positioned to strike if and when the next disgruntled superstar becomes available," McDonough said.

http://arizonasports.com/41/1651947...positioned-to-land-next-disgruntled-superstar

The Phoenix Suns are still a first class organization.

If players wanna play for Donald Sterling despite him heckling his players and everything then players should have no problem playing for the Suns.

Sarver has changed...A LOT. He's no longer the guy who thinks that he can make the best basketball decisions...he's finally trusted others with those decisions. His first trust failed him in Blanks but looks like he hit right on the target with McDonough.

Him accommodating Nash's request to get traded to LAL despite him hating the Lakers and being against it at first speaks volumes of how he's a lot more player friendly now.

The current best player we have on this roster, Goran Dragic, was brought in after Sarver demanded that the Suns get their fan favorite back in Phoenix.

And when did the Suns have cap space to sign multiple max contracts? Didn't Eric Gordon sign a max contract with us and actually talk about how great this franchise is and that his heart's here and everything? Sure he's no bonafide star but he's still a player that multiple teams had interest in at the time and he picked Phoenix over those.

Most max guys won't come to PHX not because of Sarver but because they all want to team up somewhere and the Suns don't have the established superstar that players want to team up with...yet.

 

[Errntknght]

Right now, there aren't many teams in the league that I envy. Sarver has screwed various things up many times over but he finally made two really good ones - dumping Blanks and hiring McDonough, who hired Hornacek. I'm looking forward to seeing how fast the two of them can build a contender from the wreckage - its going to be a blast.
Heck, this team has never had a coach that I liked except for Cotton and I wasn't wild about him - turning the team over to Westfall before he was ready was my least favorite move he made. (IIRC, he also tried the triangle one year without first getting some assistants who understood it and had some experience with it.) Ainge I was prepared to like then there was the McDyess mishandling, then the go at the motion offense, which he knew diddly about and finally he bequeathed us Scotty, to tie it up with a bow before he fled back to Boston. That was spiteful.

I'm prepared to like Hornacek - he's starting out as my favorite. My big worry is that he's going to be too good, too quick to get us a prime position in the draft next year. Teams will probably be handing us wins because we're better than they expect us to be - besides the teams that will hand them to us because they don't want them. Chad Ford is picking Phoenix to rival Philly and Charlotte for the most ping pong balls and another site (SBNation, I think) has us the worst overall and the worst in the West by eight games.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Completely agree that this is still an organization that players want to play for, but we will struggle to get stars to come here because of lack of current stars to team up with and nothing else. Now if Len, Archie or our 1st draft pick next year turns into a star than we might just be able to attract some serious talent here.

 

[sunsfan88]

Completely agree that this is still an organization that players want to play for, but we will struggle to get stars to come here because of lack of current stars to team up with and nothing else. Now if Len, Archie or our 1st draft pick next year turns into a star than we might just be able to attract some serious talent here.

Yea I agree with all of this.

 

[devilalum]

Yep, the Bulls too. Well, 17 years. What's remarkable is how many high picks the Bulls have had, and whiffed on, during that time. 1999 Elton Brand at #1 (not a whiff, but they didn't build around him long-term, either) 2000 Marcus Fizer at #4, 2001 Eddy Curry at #4, 2002 Jay Williams at #2, 2004 Ben Gordon at #3, 2006 Tyrus Thomas at #4. I doubt any franchise has ever achieved so little with so many top-four picks. Of course, this is the Bulls we're talking about, and they won championships with Jordan, so therefore they are eternally brilliant by definition.

If the Trailblazers had taken MJ the Bulls might be the worst franchise in the NBA.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

It doesn't even have to be the best player in the league just a really good one.

True, but you almost always have to find a way to acquire the best player in the league. There have been very few circumstances where the best player doesn't win a championship.

 

[AzStevenCal]

True, but you almost always have to find a way to acquire the best player in the league. There have been very few circumstances where the best player doesn't win a championship.

I don't know that you usually need "the best player" but you almost always need someone that is in the argument.

Steve

 

[ASUCHRIS]

I don't know that you usually need "the best player" but you almost always need someone that is in the argument.

Steve

True, but look at the last 20+ years. Nearly every year, the best player that year won the championship. (Despite whether or not they won MVP, ala Malone/Robinson)

 

[JCSunsfan]

True, but you almost always have to find a way to acquire the best player in the league. There have been very few circumstances where the best player doesn't win a championship.

But is he considered the best player because he wins championship? Isn't this a chicken or egg type of question?

 

[Phrazbit]

But is he considered the best player because he wins championship? Isn't this a chicken or egg type of question?

Yeah, I agree. Shaq was arguably the best player in the league for a couple years before Jordan retired, he surely was for several years after and he didnt win a title every year.

Garnett might have been the best player of the early 2000s and he never won squat as he was saddled by an awful franchise.

And from about 2006 on LeBron was clearly the league's best player and he did not win until a year ago.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Yeah, I agree. Shaq was arguably the best player in the league for a couple years before Jordan retired, he surely was for several years after and he didnt win a title every year.

Uh, he won 3 in a row.

Garnett might have been the best player of the early 2000s and he never won squat as he was saddled by an awful franchise.

You'd seriously argue Garnett in the early 2000's was better than Shaq? Of course the top players need at least 1 star alongside them, preferrably two, but Shaq was still better, and won the championships.

And from about 2006 on LeBron was clearly the league's best player and he did not win until a year ago.

See comment above. Dirk was also better than Lebron in
2011, Lebron is a whole different player the last 2 years.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

But is he considered the best player because he wins championship? Isn't this a chicken or egg type of question?

1. Yes.
2. Could be.

 

[Phrazbit]

Uh, he won 3 in a row.



You'd seriously argue Garnett in the early 2000's was better than Shaq? Of course the top players need at least 1 star alongside them, preferrably two, but Shaq was still better, and won the championships.




See comment above. Dirk was also better than Lebron in
2011, Lebron is a whole different player the last 2 years.

Yeah, Shaq won 3 titles in a row... over the 6-8 year span he was arguably the best player. Not exactly every season.

Dirk might have played better during games of that series but LeBron was miles better as a player. And LeBron in Cleveland was easily the league's best player, he just had the league's worst team around him.

And my point about Garnett was the "chicken/egg". He was surrounded by filth in Minnesota, meanwhile Duncan is winning titles and being called the greatest forward of all-time. If those two players teams were swapped I think the views of the two of them would also be completely reversed.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Yeah, Shaq won 3 titles in a row... over the 6-8 year span he was arguably the best player. Not exactly every season.

Dirk might have played better during games of that series but LeBron was miles better as a player. And LeBron in Cleveland was easily the league's best player, he just had the league's worst team around him.

And my point about Garnett was the "chicken/egg". He was surrounded by filth in Minnesota, meanwhile Duncan is winning titles and being called the greatest forward of all-time. If those two players teams were swapped I think the views of the two of them would also be completely reversed.

Of course...nobody does it alone. Even MJ had Scottie/Rodman.

 

[Joe Mama]

Yeah, Shaq won 3 titles in a row... over the 6-8 year span he was arguably the best player. Not exactly every season.

Dirk might have played better during games of that series but LeBron was miles better as a player. And LeBron in Cleveland was easily the league's best player, he just had the league's worst team around him.

And my point about Garnett was the "chicken/egg". He was surrounded by filth in Minnesota, meanwhile Duncan is winning titles and being called the greatest forward of all-time. If those two players teams were swapped I think the views of the two of them would also be completely reversed.

talk about hyperbole. I agree LeBron James did not have a supporting cast as good as some others, but the league's worst team? Give me a break. Not even close. Same goes for Kevin Garnett for much of his Minnesota career. In fact I would argue that it was usually injuries that ended up hurting the Timberwolves, especially post Marbury with Terrel Brandon. There were at least two seasons where they looked like one of the best teams in the league until Brandon inevitably got hurt. Later when he had Sam Casell and Latrell Sprewell they lost to the Lakers in six or seven games in the conference finals.

That said, you could have made your point without going overboard about their supporting casts. I would totally buy the argument that if you just swapped where they were drafted that Tim Duncan and Kevin Garnett would be viewed quite differently and it's possible that the latter would have another ring or two. I think you put either of those guys with the Lakers and it's a completely different story as well.

 

[Covert Rain]

I really don't believe this to be the case. With JC, we were one of the best organizations in sports. players wanted to come here...players took one year deals on really cheap contracts to play here because they knew JC would take care of them, no matter what (as he did with Manning even after he blew out his knee in 1995). Sarver doesn't carry anywhere NEAR that kind of clout.

Exactly my point. Sarver was considered a joke by many of his peers at the last owners/players meetings. Players are not running to this organization because they thinks its classy or above and beyond the other teams.

That ended when Jerry left. Proof is in the pudding. Who are these upper tier players rushing to sign with the Suns? Who are these upper tier players willing to sign for less? Even when the Suns had down years, it seems like they could always lure a couple guys here which is how the team managed to rebound over and over after being bad.

And when did the Suns have cap space to sign multiple max contracts?

I believe it was 2010?!? At nay rate the organization kept talking up that off-season and how they would be in a position to sign to max contract players and their goal was to land another franchise player or players. They could have used that in sign and trades or free agents. There wasn't a single franchise level player that sniffed this team. This is no longer a "destination" franchise. If JC still owned this team with two slots like that open this team would have gotten something done.

 

[sunsfan88]

I agree LeBron James did not have a supporting cast as good as some others, but the league's worst team? Give me a break. Not even close.

Didn't the Cavs have the worst record in the NBA right after LeBron left?

 

[Phrazbit]

talk about hyperbole. I agree LeBron James did not have a supporting cast as good as some others, but the league's worst team? Give me a break. Not even close. Same goes for Kevin Garnett for much of his Minnesota career. In fact I would argue that it was usually injuries that ended up hurting the Timberwolves, especially post Marbury with Terrel Brandon. There were at least two seasons where they looked like one of the best teams in the league until Brandon inevitably got hurt. Later when he had Sam Casell and Latrell Sprewell they lost to the Lakers in six or seven games in the conference finals.

That said, you could have made your point without going overboard about their supporting casts. I would totally buy the argument that if you just swapped where they were drafted that Tim Duncan and Kevin Garnett would be viewed quite differently and it's possible that the latter would have another ring or two. I think you put either of those guys with the Lakers and it's a completely different story as well.

Yes, the league's worst team. Arguably the best player he played with for more than one season... Mo Williams... a below average starting point guard. The grossly inept Cleveland front office (with Lance Blanks as an exec) had a ferris wheel of stiffs and washed up veterans during LeBrons time there. Look back through those teams, of the few guys that are not total scrubs, the most of rest were well past their prime. When LeBron left town the Cavs instantly became one of the league's worst teams despite keeping virtually everyone else in tow. While "the decision" (as in the TV special) was deplorable and a real twist of the knife to the Cleveland fans, I dont blame him at all for wanting to leave.

As for Garnett, those Minnesota teams were awful, not as bad as the garbage LeBron had to work with but pretty horrible in their own right. Teams that featured multiple starters who would not even be in the rotation of most playoff squads... Trenton Hassell, The Kandi-man, Marcus Banks (yes THAT Marcus Banks), Eddie Griffin... you look through those rosters and even as a hard core fan you wonder "Who the hell are these guys?" The Twolves were ran so poorly that they cost themselves several years of first round picks so they could give Joe Smith an illegal contract... JOE SMITH!!!