Scola trade to Pacers Imminent

[Phrazbit]

The 2nd version of the Bulls dynasty's best and most used lineup was Rodman-Kukoc-Pippen-Jordan-Harper... none of whom qualifies as a center.

And I cant believe people would try to talk themselves out of Kevin Love on a max contract... the best rebounder in the league and one of the best offensive bigs... unless you can get Shaq to sip from the Holy Grail its would to be hard to find a big man better than him who is not already committed somewhere.

 

[BC867]

The Bulls' primary backup center in '92-'93 was Scott Williams, who was in no way a "true center."

I knew someone would find a 1-year exception to try to disprove the point.

'Sorry, the exception doesn't override the premise that year in-year out Championship contenders have included role-playing legitimate Centers. Not Alvan Adams or Amar'e Stoudemire playing Center.

 

[sunsfan88]

by who? Your imagination?

People everywhere with a functioning brain and at least common basketball knowledge.

 

[elindholm]

I knew someone would find a 1-year exception to try to disprove the point.

'Sorry, the exception doesn't override the premise

Actually, yes, an exception does rebut a premise which makes an "always" claim. If you want to soften your claim, go ahead, but "always" means "no exceptions." And Phrazbit posted another exception anyway.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Honestly, some of you just say ridiculous things. Of course Love is a max player. He's averaged better than 22 and 14 over the last three seasons, and almost everyone would agree that he's top-20 in the league. Max money isn't reserved for those who can lay claim to the arbitrary "superstar" title. Of course we'd all rather have LeBron James, but that doesn't mean that Love isn't going to get a max offer from any team interested in him.

Of course! We gave Shawn Marion max money. The real key to success is going to be WHICH max player you bet on.

 

[elindholm]

The real key to success is going to be WHICH max player you bet on.

Well, assuming you have a choice. A lot of teams don't. For the Suns in a couple of years, the choice might be someone like Love, or no one.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Think back to Michael's dynasty. He always had two or three role playing Centers on the roster. One in at all times. 'True centers'!

They didn't have to be studs. Just legitimate Centers. You are half-right. It is logic. What part of it do you consider 'bent'?

Luc Longley was not a legit center. Michael Jordan just made him look like one. When Luc signed with the Suns he made some comment about getting out from under Michael's shadow and showing what he can do.

I remember hearing Ainge say in an interview afterwards, "I thought to myself, "oh no, this kid thinks he is actually good!" "

Michael Jordan would have won multiple championships with Amare playing center beside him, even though he was a pf and not a center.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Well, assuming you have a choice. A lot of teams don't. For the Suns in a couple of years, the choice might be someone like Love, or no one.

I agree, that's the rub. Its where the 'luck' part comes in.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

The max contract conversation is one of the most interesting in the NBA. The Heat have proven you can win with 3 max contracts and a bunch of role player/smeagols, but you also have Lebron who is playing basketball at about as high a level right now as we've ever seen. Nearly every championship team has had:

1 - the best player in the NBA at the time
2 - at least one other bona fide star, usually two

There are certainly exceptions, but in general, this is true.

It seems fairly obvious that we're not going to be a contender to get Lebron next offseason, but Love would be a nice consolation prize, especially if we could draft Wiggins/Parker.

Can Love be the 2nd best player on a championship team? I have my doubts, but in the same sense, the Suns are rarely going to be a landing spot for top 5 NBA talent. Sure we'll luck into a Nash, but you can't really count on that, and sans injuries, it's unlikely he'd have ended up in Phoenix. We're likely going to have to take a chance on an imperfect player and hope he grows with us into an elite player.

Combine that with the fact he's only 24, and could grow nicely with the rest of our young talent, and I see no reason why we wouldn't put the full court press on Love.

 

[Sci Fi]

Where is your proof that he absolutely cannot be? And don't come up with your famous empty statistics that prove that you like numbers rather than anything concrete when it comes to NBA skills.

I would say the burden of proof is more on you to prove he can since before one Ricard Rubio came along, Kevin Love was leading his team in the wrong direction. Empty stats don't equate to winning.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I would say the burden of proof is more on you to prove he can since before one Ricard Rubio came along, Kevin Love was leading his team in the wrong direction. Empty stats don't equate to winning.

Let's see, Rubio came along 2 years ago and Kevin Love is now 24. So, you think it's been proven he can't be a major cog on a championship team because he was unable to lift one of the worst rosters ever to a championship before he turned 22? How did Lebron do with a much stronger lineup at that age?

Steve

 

[Sci Fi]

I think the real question, which is related, is whether there's any point at all in constructing a roster whose ceiling is 55 wins and an occasional foray into the conference finals. There's a lot of talk on this board about building toward a championship club, but that requires a huge amount of luck, not just a few extra late first-round picks.

Assuming the Suns don't happen to stumble upon the league's best player of the next dozen years, how much patience will anyone involved with the organization have? Realistically, how long can a team sit on its hands and "build for the future" before giving up and committing to a good-but-not-great roster, like the Clippers and Pacers have done, so that they can at least experience some playoff excitement?

I think a team that is still telling its fans, and itself, "future championship or bust" needs to pass on Love. But for one that has been living that fantasy under the pretense of "rebuilding" for the last six or eight years, going after Love for a change of pace could be pretty appealing.

You make a lot of good points. I for one would be very happy to just develop a good team that could possibly make a run should things fall into place. I was more than happy with the Suns from 2005-2010 even though they didn't win it all. For players and personnel involved with the team, I can understand how they would covet a title. For me, though, as a fan, when the season is over, I don't feel much different about a losing season or a WC finals run. I probably care more about how they played than if they won. Yes, winning is nice, but when the season's over, tomorrow will bring a new dawn.

 

[AzStevenCal]

You make a lot of good points. I for one would be very happy to just develop a good team that could possibly make a run should things fall into place. I was more than happy with the Suns from 2005-2010 even though they didn't win it all. For players and personnel involved with the team, I can understand how they would covet a title. For me, though, as a fan, when the season is over, I don't feel much different about a losing season or a WC finals run. I probably care more about how they played than if they won. Yes, winning is nice, but when the season's over, tomorrow will bring a new dawn.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. I want the Championship mostly so people will shut up about how we've never won one. But the journey still means a lot more to me then the destination. I want to be able to enjoy watching them play more than anything.

Steve

 

[Sci Fi]

Let's see, Rubio came along 2 years ago and Kevin Love is now 24. So, you think it's been proven he can't be a major cog on a championship team because he was unable to lift one of the worst rosters ever to a championship before he turned 22? How did Lebron do with a much stronger lineup at that age?

Steve

I'm not exactly sure how one would "prove" that Love can't be the second fiddle on a championship team and I certainly didn't say that. The other poster said Slinslin(?) had the burden of proof. Since Love has never even been in the playoffs, how can that possibly be?

But assuming your question is can Love be the number 2 fiddle. Yeh, maybe, if he's playing with LeBron and a lot of other really good players. Realistically, can he? Not in my mind. ainec. The guy is so overrated it's not funny. As he took a larger part in the team, their won/lose record got worse, not better. That is, until Rubio. And he transformed that team. One game was all it took to see that. Love couldn't do it in two years.

As to LeBron, as a 19 year old, he helped his team more than double their wins. Unbelievable.

 

[Phrazbit]

I'm not exactly sure how one would "prove" that Love can't be the second fiddle on a championship team and I certainly didn't say that. The other poster said Slinslin(?) had the burden of proof. Since Love has never even been in the playoffs, how can that possibly be?

But assuming your question is can Love be the number 2 fiddle. Yeh, maybe, if he's playing with LeBron and a lot of other really good players. Realistically, can he? Not in my mind. ainec. The guy is so overrated it's not funny. As he took a larger part in the team, their won/lose record got worse, not better. That is, until Rubio. And he transformed that team. One game was all it took to see that. Love couldn't do it in two years.

As to LeBron, as a 19 year old, he helped his team more than double their wins. Unbelievable.

No it didnt. In 2010 the team (idiotically) ran their offense through Measley. Yes, Love scored more points a night, but Beasley took waaaaaaay more shots than Love did. They won 17 games that year, then the following season when Love took over the offense and had his true breakout season they doubled their win rate, winning 26 (on a 34 win pace) in the lockout shortened season. And that was despite a laughable group of players around him. Rubio has not transformed squat. He makes some slick passes sure, but he is a mess right now as a player. The guy makes Rondo look like a sharp shooter and has a brutal assist to TO ratio.

Up until last year, when no one stayed healthy, the Wolves had surrounded Love with some of the worst players in the league... and used them as starters.

 

[Chaplin]

I would say the burden of proof is more on you to prove he can since before one Ricard Rubio came along, Kevin Love was leading his team in the wrong direction. Empty stats don't equate to winning.

Slinslin's response to sunsfan88 saying that Love is a viable second piece to a championship puzzle was vaguely insulting to the original poster:

To who? Your imagination

That implies rather strongly that slinslin thinks that Love CANNOT be a 2nd piece on a championship team. Why do I have to prove that he is AFTER slinslin posts that?

Can he carry a team to the playoffs? He hasn't proven that he can, maybe that's why people are saying he can be the 2nd fiddle, rather than the first. Don't put that pressure on him to "the man" day in and day out, and he could be a very crucial piece to the puzzle. The guy's play speaks for itself. Sure, he was on a bad team, but he was also the primary target for the opposition and he STILL did pretty well.

Think about the NFL--a defense can completely concentrate on Adrian Peterson or Fitz, but they are good enough that it doesn't matter. Love is a great player.

 

[Sci Fi]

No it didnt. In 2010 the team (idiotically) ran their offense through Measley. Yes, Love scored more points a night, but Beasley took waaaaaaay more shots than Love did. They won 17 games that year, then the following season when Love took over the offense and had his true breakout season they doubled their win rate, winning 26 (on a 34 win pace) in the lockout shortened season. And that was despite a laughable group of players around him. Rubio has not transformed squat. He makes some slick passes sure, but he is a mess right now as a player. The guy makes Rondo look like a sharp shooter and has a brutal assist to TO ratio.

Up until last year, when no one stayed healthy, the Wolves had surrounded Love with some of the worst players in the league... and used them as starters.

Ha ha. Go look at the plus/minus in the beginning of the season when Rubio was a sub. The subs were all positive playing with Rubio. The starters were negative playing with Love. Love went positive after Rubio started. But don't let facts get in the way of a good story. And why did the team ABSOLUTELY COLLAPSE after Rubio was injured. Couldn't Love carry them? And why when the Heat came to town after Rubio had only played TWO GAMES in the NBA did LeBron take great pains to guard him. Here, I'll make it easy for you. Because Rubio was what made them go. And what made them win.

 

[Chaplin]

I'm not exactly sure how one would "prove" that Love can't be the second fiddle on a championship team and I certainly didn't say that. The other poster said Slinslin(?) had the burden of proof. Since Love has never even been in the playoffs, how can that possibly be?

But assuming your question is can Love be the number 2 fiddle. Yeh, maybe, if he's playing with LeBron and a lot of other really good players. Realistically, can he? Not in my mind. ainec. The guy is so overrated it's not funny. As he took a larger part in the team, their won/lose record got worse, not better. That is, until Rubio. And he transformed that team. One game was all it took to see that. Love couldn't do it in two years.

As to LeBron, as a 19 year old, he helped his team more than double their wins. Unbelievable.

And you are INCREDIBLY overrating Ricky Rubio. Wow.

 

[Sci Fi]

And you are INCREDIBLY overrating Ricky Rubio. Wow.

Really? LeBron agreed with me. Then why did they start winning?

 

[Mainstreet]

And I thought this was a thread about Scola's departure. Now it is about Love and Rubio. Somewhere there was an exit from the turnpike and I missed it.

 

[Covert Rain]

Has nothing to do with us "being the Suns." Big men are notoriously overpaid in this league and if the Suns don't offer the max, somebody else undoubtedly will.

People really tend to reach just to get a dig into the team. Why do fans do that? There are so many legitimate issues to complain about.

OK, that is a good point. However, once in a while you will see a guy take slightly less to play for a good organization. The Suns are not one of those teams any longer. All things being equal (not counting big men getting the max), the Suns will have to overpay for a guy if it comes to the Suns and another team IMO. That is "being the Suns" under Sarver and is probably a more appropriate example.

 

[Gaddabout]

The thought of Amare playing with MJ is kind of comical to me.

MJ: Amare, move your butt over here!

Amare: You want to run the pick-and-roll?

MJ: No -- you're in my way!

 

[Gaddabout]

I think the real question, which is related, is whether there's any point at all in constructing a roster whose ceiling is 55 wins and an occasional foray into the conference finals. There's a lot of talk on this board about building toward a championship club, but that requires a huge amount of luck, not just a few extra late first-round picks.

Assuming the Suns don't happen to stumble upon the league's best player of the next dozen years, how much patience will anyone involved with the organization have? Realistically, how long can a team sit on its hands and "build for the future" before giving up and committing to a good-but-not-great roster, like the Clippers and Pacers have done, so that they can at least experience some playoff excitement?

I think a team that is still telling its fans, and itself, "future championship or bust" needs to pass on Love. But for one that has been living that fantasy under the pretense of "rebuilding" for the last six or eight years, going after Love for a change of pace could be pretty appealing.

Portland has been building for a championship for 20 years. I do not care for the Portland championship-building model.

 

[elindholm]

Portland has been building for a championship for 20 years. I do not care for the Portland championship-building model.

Yep, the Bulls too. Well, 17 years. What's remarkable is how many high picks the Bulls have had, and whiffed on, during that time. 1999 Elton Brand at #1 (not a whiff, but they didn't build around him long-term, either) 2000 Marcus Fizer at #4, 2001 Eddy Curry at #4, 2002 Jay Williams at #2, 2004 Ben Gordon at #3, 2006 Tyrus Thomas at #4. I doubt any franchise has ever achieved so little with so many top-four picks. Of course, this is the Bulls we're talking about, and they won championships with Jordan, so therefore they are eternally brilliant by definition.

 

[Covert Rain]

Yep, the Bulls too. Well, 17 years. What's remarkable is how many high picks the Bulls have had, and whiffed on, during that time. 1999 Elton Brand at #1 (not a whiff, but they didn't build around him long-term, either) 2000 Marcus Fizer at #4, 2001 Eddy Curry at #4, 2002 Jay Williams at #2, 2004 Ben Gordon at #3, 2006 Tyrus Thomas at #4. I doubt any franchise has ever achieved so little with so many top-four picks. Of course, this is the Bulls we're talking about, and they won championships with Jordan, so therefore they are eternally brilliant by definition.

Portland has been building for a championship for 20 years. I do not care for the Portland championship-building model.

Those are all great examples of bad models but is any model worse than a team who is one of the most winning franchises in all of sports without a title? By default, almost any model is better than the Suns model.