Should Ayton be Traded?

[CardNots]

I am coming to that conclusion. You always answer the phone to see what you can get in a trade. My problem is everyone knows Vogel is a center whisperer. If Ayton fails under Vogel, his trade value will actually get worse!

Whispering isn’t quite what I had in mind

 

[Hoop Head]

I am coming to that conclusion. You always answer the phone to see what you can get in a trade. My problem is everyone knows Vogel is a center whisperer. If Ayton fails under Vogel, his trade value will actually get worse!

What is this "Center whisperer" stuff? Never heard Vogel described as that and can't think of a Center he's developed in LA, Orlando, or Indiana. This has to be something created by fans of Ayton as a reason not to deal him.

 

[AzStevenCal]

What is this "Center whisperer" stuff? Never heard Vogel described as that and can't think of a Center he's developed in LA, Orlando, or Indiana. This has to be something created by fans of Ayton as a reason not to deal him.

I used it because, if we keep DA, we desperately need Vogel to be this miracle worker. I didn't invent the usage though, I think it grew out of his success working with Roy Hibbert - who, for a few years, was considered a top center (until Goran Dragic showed the league how to attack him). And I have no idea whether Vogel actually had anything to do with Hibbert's rising star, I just know we need similar help.

 

[95pro]

What is this "Center whisperer" stuff? Never heard Vogel described as that and can't think of a Center he's developed in LA, Orlando, or Indiana. This has to be something created by fans of Ayton as a reason not to deal him.

Its more on the defensive end is where he gets his centers to turn it up. All the guys he's worked with have improved their game while he coached them.

 

[Covert Rain]

If any capologists can come with another scenario aside from trading Ayton that can deepen this bench with at least 2 impact players I am all ears.

 

[Proximo]

If any capologists can come with another scenario aside from trading Ayton that can deepen this bench with at least 2 impact players I am all ears.

We aren't going to have a deep bench no matter what we do.

We need to just come up with one good unit of 5 players.

 

[Covert Rain]

We aren't going to have a deep bench no matter what we do.

We need to just come up with one good unit of 5 players.

Getting solid rotation means you don't have to go as deep in your bench. So, that does make your bench better.

 

[Yuma]

What is this "Center whisperer" stuff? Never heard Vogel described as that and can't think of a Center he's developed in LA, Orlando, or Indiana. This has to be something created by fans of Ayton as a reason not to deal him.

Since we hired him, it's all anyone has said. How he made Roy Hibert an all star. Finally got the most of AD. Etc. Etc.

 

[Mainstreet]

Since we hired him, it's all anyone has said. How he made Roy Hibert an all star. Finally got the most of AD. Etc. Etc.

If Frank Vogel can improve Ayton's game and confidence, this would likely be the Suns best off season move.

 

[Sparky16]

If Frank Vogel can improve Ayton's game and confidence, this would likely be the Suns best off season move.

DA's problem is he does not care to get better - he got paid, thats all that matters to him. Trade him while teams think he maybe worth something cuz the next couple of years will show he does not

 

[CardNots]

DA's problem is he does not care to get better - he got paid, thats all that matters to him. Trade him while teams think he maybe worth something cuz the next couple of years will show he does not

My take, mentally not gifted

playing at a elite level in the nba requires a high level basketball IQ and mental toughness, trade him

 

[Carolinacacti]

DA's problem is he does not care to get better - he got paid, thats all that matters to him. Trade him while teams think he maybe worth something cuz the next couple of years will show he does not

Dominayton stays in tip top shape. Cap will go up he will be worth the money.

 

[overseascardfan]

PHX could fill out bench with minimum deal guys. There should be some options, of course they could take fliers on UDFA and develop them like MIA did with Strus & Vincent.

 

[AzStevenCal]

PHX could fill out bench with minimum deal guys. There should be some options, of course they could take fliers on UDFA and develop them like MIA did with Strus & Vincent.

That would be the way to go for the long run but it doesn't solve our immediate needs. Keep in mind, Strus and Vincent are both 27 now so this development didn't happen overnight.

 

[Covert Rain]

If Frank Vogel can improve Ayton's game and confidence, this would likely be the Suns best off season move.

I don't think DOMInAYTON's confidence is the problem if the way he talks about himself all season is an indicator. You can't fix low basketball IQ or lack of focus IMO. My guess is, if we keep Ayton, you will see temporary spurts of Vogel's influence and see it disappear as the season goes on. Ayton appears to be a creature of habit.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I don't think DOMInAYTON's confidence is the problem if the way he talks about himself all season is an indicator. You can't fix low basketball IQ or lack of focus IMO. My guess is, if we keep Ayton, you will see temporary spurts of Vogel's influence and see it disappear as the season goes on. Ayton appears to be a creature of habit.

I have some very mixed feelings on DA and his future with us. He has the potential to be an all time great but not even the most ardent Ayton fan still believes that could ever happen. Basketball, beyond providing financial comfort for his family, just isn't enough of a priority for him.

But there's a level well below HOFer that we've seen many times from DA that I believe a good coach could get him to play up to more consistently. And that level is far better than what we are likely to get in trade for him. The problem is, we won't know if we have the right coach and right system to make that happen until we go through it. And if we fail to reach him again he'll have virtually no trade value until he's an expiring contract.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I don't think DOMInAYTON's confidence is the problem if the way he talks about himself all season is an indicator. You can't fix low basketball IQ or lack of focus IMO. My guess is, if we keep Ayton, you will see temporary spurts of Vogel's influence and see it disappear as the season goes on. Ayton appears to be a creature of habit.

I think that’s part lack of self awareness and part false bravado.

 

[Covert Rain]

I have some very mixed feelings on DA and his future with us. He has the potential to be an all time great but not even the most ardent Ayton fan still believes that could ever happen. Basketball, beyond providing financial comfort for his family, just isn't enough of a priority for him.

But there's a level well below HOFer that we've seen many times from DA that I believe a good coach could get him to play up to more consistently. And that level is far better than what we are likely to get in trade for him. The problem is, we won't know if we have the right coach and right system to make that happen until we go through it. And if we fail to reach him again he'll have virtually no trade value until he's an expiring contract.

As do I. I think he shows flashes of what he could be but IMO only Ayton can fix Ayton. The coach can teach him skills around the bucket, can teach him schemes etc. It's up to Ayton though to stay focused, push himself and to have consistent effort. I suspect though even if Vogel can't raise his game an 18/10 guy still has value in the NBA. They just won't be getting a superstar.

 

[Yuma]

I am torn on this. It's been two seasons since we had peak Ayton in my mind. I know human nature would have made me mad at Sarver for not giving me the larger payout without having to have another team sign me to an offer sheet. Also, Monty seemed to be playing the tough love coaching role. I know some guys don't respond to that.

 

[AzStevenCal]

As do I. I think he shows flashes of what he could be but IMO only Ayton can fix Ayton. The coach can teach him skills around the bucket, can teach him schemes etc. It's up to Ayton though to stay focused, push himself and to have consistent effort. I suspect though even if Vogel can't raise his game an 18/10 guy still has value in the NBA. They just won't be getting a superstar.

I'm not so sure. DA and many others aren't worth their salaries, that should have always mattered but it's kind of been ignored for years. Now though, the belts have to tighten, you can't afford to have minimum or even average players drawing maximum dollars. And the GMs don't just look at simple stats, they are well aware that not all 18/10's are created equal. He disappears and fails to impact the game for LONG stretches even in games where he walks away with 20 and 10, the league knows this.

 

[overseascardfan]

That would be the way to go for the long run but it doesn't solve our immediate needs. Keep in mind, Strus and Vincent are both 27 now so this development didn't happen overnight.

If you get a solid starting 5 then you have to fill out bench with minimum guys, whether they are veterans or UDFAs depends on who is willfully to come here on a minimum deal. Teams can’t make players sign with them so the appeal of PHX will be a starting 5 that can get them to a title, free agents would be more likely to sign minimum deals to be part of that.

 

[AzStevenCal]

If you get a solid starting 5 then you have to fill out bench with minimum guys, whether they are veterans or UDFAs depends on who is willfully to come here on a minimum deal. Teams can’t make players sign with them so the appeal of PHX will be a starting 5 that can get them to a title, free agents would be more likely to sign minimum deals to be part of that.

The Josh Okogies and the Damion Lees, yeah, but we need a lot more than that. I agree that a solid starting 5 can take a lot of pressure off of the bench but we're nowhere close to fixing our starting situation either. I'm sorry, I just don't see this easy fix that some are talking about. Players want to win titles and Booker seems to be a hot item as a teammate right now but neither one of those draws are going to bring us real talent if our offers aren't at least in the ballpark.

 

[Covert Rain]

I'm not so sure. DA and many others aren't worth their salaries, that should have always mattered but it's kind of been ignored for years. Now though, the belts have to tighten, you can't afford to have minimum or even average players drawing maximum dollars. And the GMs don't just look at simple stats, they are well aware that not all 18/10's are created equal. He disappears and fails to impact the game for LONG stretches even in games where he walks away with 20 and 10, the league knows this.

That's partially why I think they have to move him now. There is always that team that thinks that you didn't maximize said player and that they can do better. Ayton per reports, is viewed that way by many teams across the league. Someone posted that article in another thread. Ayton by the end of his deal? It's less likey.

 

[Mainstreet]

That would be the way to go for the long run but it doesn't solve our immediate needs. Keep in mind, Strus and Vincent are both 27 now so this development didn't happen overnight.

The Suns need to find the guys further along like Cam Payne or Jose Alvardao.

I'd probably carry at least two point guards on two-way contracts, looking for a player ready to take the next step.

IMO, Saban Lee is close.

 

[Mainstreet]

DA's problem is he does not care to get better - he got paid, thats all that matters to him. Trade him while teams think he maybe worth something cuz the next couple of years will show he does not

I'd like to see if Frank Vogel can reach him as a player. In the Suns Final run, Ayton played well, so it's in him.

If the Suns can find the right trade so be it, but the Suns could use another young player to build around.