Should the Cardinals retire Larry Centers number??

[Redheart]

once - Deion did that ALL the time. It was also near the end of Irvin's career.

An impressive day nonetheless, but what seems to be the exception in Aeneas' career was the norm for Deion.

I also remember watching Jake the Snake playing against Deion. It looked like Jake was throwing the ball to Sanders rather than our receiver; DS was that fast and fluid in the change of his direction. I could tell Plumber was just petrified to throw it to DS side of the field.

AW was not that good in pass-coverage, but he was still VERY good. I just agree with the point that you have to consider run-support when you consider a HOF Cornerback. AW was a freaking heat-seaking missile.

 

[Denny Green Fan]

I wish every player played the game with the same passion Larry did.

 

[Redheart]

I wish every player played the game with the same passion Larry did.

If Mac was describing Larry, he would say, "Larry would never, never, never...never quit". And this time, he would be right.

 

[vince56]

I wish every player played the game with the same passion Larry did.

That is 100% undeniable.

 

[ajcardfan]

But Deion and Aikman played on the same team for most of their careers, so Aikman never had to "face" Deion, especially every year.

It seems to me like what Aikman was really saying was that Aeneas was "the best corner besides Deion".

Could be. But, they were not together "most" of their careers. In fact, they played together five. Deion played 5 years in Atlanta, 1 in SF and 4 in DC. Aikman played for 12, 13 seasons or so.

Deion will be in the HOF on the first ballot. It's 50/50, at best, of Aeneas making it all. I prefer Aeneas as a football player myself, but Deion had a bigger impact on the league.

Also, I'm not convinced Aeneas will choose to retire with the Cardinals or go into the HOF as a Cardinal.

 

[jmt]

Absolutely not. I loved the way Larry played but henota HOForPatTillman. No way

 

[maddogkf]

If you think that Williams will be inducted into the Hall of Fame, then I have some land to sell you at the mouth of the Colorado River when it meets the Sea of Cortez....or the Gulf of California if you prefer.......oh, and by the way, no water flows from the the Colorado River when it meets the Sea of Cortez.
FACT

90% of the water is used up before the delta, but there is water that flows into the Gulf. This is a fact.

 

[maddogkf]

I dont believe in retiring numbers at all.

You got 80+ players and in some cases 90+ becuase of NFLE exceptions in training camp. It is going to be really hard to find them numbers to wear if you start retiring them.

Ring of Honor I am all for.

ditto

 

[BigDavis75]

So does anyone else still think Deion is the better ALL-AROUND corner?

 

[Cheesebeef]

So does anyone else still think Deion is the better ALL-AROUND corner?

it's an interesting question - do you want the guy with all around skills or the guy who can dominate?

I'd take the dominator any day of the week - what he lacks in run support is COMPLETELY overwhelmed by his skills as a cover corner.

 

[Assface]

it's an interesting question - do you want the guy with all around skills or the guy who can dominate?

I'd take the dominator any day of the week - what he lacks in run support is COMPLETELY overwhelmed by his skills as a cover corner.

I'd take Deion, just put your best LB in front of him.

 

[BigDavis75]

I'd take Deion, just put your best LB in front of him.

Thats still not going to help a whole lot, in blocking one man is often left unblocked (most often on the other side of the play though), the coordinaters would try to take Deion one on one.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Thats still not going to help a whole lot, in blocking one man is often left unblocked (most often on the other side of the play though), the coordinaters would try to take Deion one on one.

And how much did it really hurt most Deion's division winning teams? Yet - at the same time - how much did Aeneas run support actually effect our perenially pathetic defense?

I look at the comparison of these two guys in these terms - Say you had to choose between Shaq and Hakeem - Hakeem was without a doubt the better "overall" player, but Shaq's dominance couldn't be accounted for - never mind he didn't have a jumper or couldn't shoot free throws - his mere presence and dominance on offense propelled him to 3 NBA titles, 5 NBA Finals and 7 Conference Finals - as oppsoed to Hakeem's 2, 3 and 4.

Better overall doesn't necessarily mean more impactful player. Give me the guy who makes the most impact any day of the week - but after that guy - give me Aeneas because I think he WAS the 2nd best CB in the last 20 years.

 

[mncardfan]

wait......

I cannot believe what I'm hearing. I am obviously and admittedly biased as a Cardinal fan, but c'mon!!! AW is the better all around player, yet you want to have DS over AW??? I wish we could take a poll with coaches on this one. Ask them, at the corner position who they want most. Personally I might give the nod to DS if you factor in his game changing kick return ability, but as a pure corner it is no contest. Cheese acts like no one ever scored on DS, which is bogus.

I have never liked comparing titles to players in any sport so the NBA reference means nothing to me. These are team sports especially the NFL. If someone says DS is better than AW because he won some superbowls, I mean, Cardinal fans if anybody know how rediculous that statement is. So if we had had DS instead of AW all those years, we would have won the superbowl, that is insane!!

Look, there is no denying that DS is the best cover corner ever IMO. But who do I want on MY football team to play the corner position....AW, the best all around corner in his time. Run Support, wether cheese wants to admit it or not is a huge part of that position......HUGE! Returning kicks is not. Realistically DS could shut down one player on almost every play. That is saying a lot, but he simply WAS NOT a complete player. Shaq dominates inside, and that can make a big impact on a 5 player basketball team, much more of an impact than what DS did. that is a bad anaology IMO.

mncardfan

 

[Cheesebeef]

I cannot believe what I'm hearing. I am obviously and admittedly biased as a Cardinal fan, but c'mon!!! AW is the better all around player, yet you want to have DS over AW??? I wish we could take a poll with coaches on this one. Ask them, at the corner position who they want most. Personally I might give the nod to DS if you factor in his game changing kick return ability, but as a pure corner it is no contest. Cheese acts like no one ever scored on DS, which is bogus.

I have never liked comparing titles to players in any sport so the NBA reference means nothing to me. These are team sports especially the NFL. If someone says DS is better than AW because he won some superbowls, I mean, Cardinal fans if anybody know how rediculous that statement is. So if we had had DS instead of AW all those years, we would have won the superbowl, that is insane!!

Look, there is no denying that DS is the best cover corner ever IMO. But who do I want on MY football team to play the corner position....AW, the best all around corner in his time. Run Support, wether cheese wants to admit it or not is a huge part of that position......HUGE! Returning kicks is not. Realistically DS could shut down one player on almost every play. That is saying a lot, but he simply WAS NOT a complete player. Shaq dominates inside, and that can make a big impact on a 5 player basketball team, much more of an impact than what DS did. that is a bad anaology IMO.

mncardfan

I'd love to see that poll also - wait - oh yeah, there were polls for that kind of stuff - it's called being on ALL-PRO/ALL-DECADE/ALL-TIME lists - but hey, all those reporters, former players, and people who played the game who listed Deion as the Corner on those lists must have been just as out of their mind as I apparently am.

As far as putting the "all-around player" to the dominating player comparison into an NFL comparison - let's look at this comparison - who'd would you rather have - Chris Carter or Randy Moss?

Relax MN - or get back on your meds - no reason to get all up in arms here.

 

[mncardfan]

I'd love to see that poll also - wait - oh yeah, there were polls for that kind of stuff - it's called being on ALL-PRO/ALL-DECADE/ALL-TIME lists - but hey, all those reporters, former players, and people who played the game who listed Deion as the Corner on those lists must have been just as out of their mind as I apparently am.

As far as putting the "all-around player" to the dominating player comparison into an NFL comparison - let's look at this comparison - who'd would you rather have - Chris Carter or Randy Moss?

Relax MN - or get back on your meds - no reason to get all up in arms here.

Yeah, I need to relax, and you need to be sent upstairs to bed, or possibly put in your crib. I have conceded to you that DS is a more impact player, my contention is that AW is the better all-round corner. You, like most, have bought heavily into DS and his hype. The reporters, former players (now working for the media) tell everybody what they want to hear, or what they have been hearing because DS was so media friendly. They ate it up and so have you cheese. Those ALL WHATEVER teams don't mean beans when you really sit down and look at individual positions. I mean the Pro Bowl is not much more than a popularity contest. Obviously you have to be a great player, but it also helps to be what DS was a showboat.

don't make this personal cheese, sorry to get under your skin there.

Screw it, your right!

mncardfan

 

[Cheesebeef]

don't make this personal cheese, sorry to get under your skin there.

Screw it, your right!

mncardfan

that's funny - I was about to write the same thing. I could be wrong - who knows.

And you didn't get under my skin - sorry if you thought this turned personal. You're a good poster with solid football knowledge - believe me - on this site first interactions can breed long-standing feuds - hope that wasn't started here.

 

[mncardfan]

believe me - on this site first interactions can breed long-standing feuds - hope that wasn't started here.

No long standing thing will occur. I have argued this point to others before, and I don't know why I do it. Its not like I'm gonna change somebodies opinion, especially if I'm an a$$ while trying to do so. I have been reading this site for probably a year and a half, then I start posting on this subject.......stupid me. I respect your opinion and you certainly have very valid points. See you some other threads eh!

mncardfan

 

[BigDavis75]

And how much did it really hurt most Deion's division winning teams? Yet - at the same time - how much did Aeneas run support actually effect our perenially pathetic defense?

I look at the comparison of these two guys in these terms - Say you had to choose between Shaq and Hakeem - Hakeem was without a doubt the better "overall" player, but Shaq's dominance couldn't be accounted for - never mind he didn't have a jumper or couldn't shoot free throws - his mere presence and dominance on offense propelled him to 3 NBA titles, 5 NBA Finals and 7 Conference Finals - as oppsoed to Hakeem's 2, 3 and 4.

Better overall doesn't necessarily mean more impactful player. Give me the guy who makes the most impact any day of the week - but after that guy - give me Aeneas because I think he WAS the 2nd best CB in the last 20 years.

What an awful post this is, first Aeneas did impact us he was the best player (maybe) Swann on our 98 playoff team, was Deion? No the answer is no. Deion had a ridiculously better team than AW was ever given. Your Shaq comparison sucks, Shaq is the better player. Brings down 15 and scores 28 in his prime.

 

[BigDavis75]

Also, Deion's all century team placement over AW was simply based on his winning seasons. Do you think reporters and players would vote for a guy from AZ or a guy from "America's team"? I bet you it was all guys like Boomer who frickin' hated the Cards. Get back at me on this one cheese.

 

[Metcalf Rules]

Sorry if I responded so late. I love Larry Centers as much as the next guy, but no they should not retire his number. Is Jim Hart's number retired? Roger Wehrli? Conrad Dobler? Hell, I think even Jake Plummer did more to get the Cards to their one playoff perfomance in Arizona than Larry did.

 

[kerouac9]

What an awful post this is, first Aeneas did impact us he was the best player (maybe) Swann on our 98 playoff team, was Deion? No the answer is no. Deion had a ridiculously better team than AW was ever given. Your Shaq comparison sucks, Shaq is the better player. Brings down 15 and scores 28 in his prime.

No, Aeneas was on the best player on the '98 playoff team. He might have been the third. I'd wager that Simeon Rice and Jamir Miller were better players that season, having more impact, than Aeneas Williams. Maybe Eric Swann, as well.

Besides, calling him a better player because of one season is ridiculous. Deion was perrennially the best player on his teams.

Also: where does Darrell Green enter into this conversation? AW was better than him, but he wasn't that much better...

 

[Cheesebeef]

What an awful post this is, first Aeneas did impact us he was the best player (maybe) Swann on our 98 playoff team, was Deion? No the answer is no. Deion had a ridiculously better team than AW was ever given. Your Shaq comparison sucks, Shaq is the better player. Brings down 15 and scores 28 in his prime.

Agree to disagree - but just out of curiosity - you wnat to show me where Shaq ever averaged 15 boards a game in his prime (which indicates mutliple years) when I'm pretty sure he NEVER even averaged as much in one season? Beside s- I said Shaq was the better player but are you really going to argue with me that Hakeem didn't have better OVERALL skills(much like Aeneas and Sanders or the Chris Carter v. Randy Moss compariosn?).

And Swann as the maybe best player on the 98 team? I have to really question your football knowledge on this one. What team were you watching? The guy was injured on and off again that season and oinly played 7 games that entire season. The best player on that Defense was Jamir MIller, then AW then Simeon then probably Mark Smith.

 

[BigDavis75]

Let me rephrase, Swann was the most physically dominating. Also, will you agree Aeneas is the better overall defensive player? Also, Kerouac why should Darell green be mentioned in this converstaion if both Aeneas and Deion were better than he was?

 

[Cheesebeef]

Let me rephrase, Swann was the most physically dominating. Also, will you agree Aeneas is the better overall defensive player? Also, Kerouac why should Darell green be mentioned in this converstaion if both Aeneas and Deion were better than he was?

I just figured out what I meant as far as this was concerned - I think Aeneas was the more WELL-ROUNDED defensive player but I still think Deion's impact on any game is what elevates him above Aeneas just that little bit. It's not like I think it's a complete blowout between the two. Over the last 20 years, and ever since I've watched football, I've never seen two better corners in my life. I was never enamroed with Woodson... thought he was a bit overrated and always loved Aeneas, but I still give Deion the edge - moreso based on what I saw of him when he was on the Falcons, than when he was on the Niners and Cowboys. My brother went to Emory right around the time the Falcons drafted Deion so they became my second favorite team - thus I followed Deion's career from that point forward and his impact on that club couldn't be denied.