Should the Cardinals retire Larry Centers number??

[Bobcat]

No, Aeneas was on the best player on the '98 playoff team. He might have been the third. I'd wager that Simeon Rice and Jamir Miller were better players that season, having more impact, than Aeneas Williams. Maybe Eric Swann, as well.

Besides, calling him a better player because of one season is ridiculous. Deion was perrennially the best player on his teams.

Also: where does Darrell Green enter into this conversation? AW was better than him, but he wasn't that much better...

I know that most of ya wn't agree with me, but Andre Wadsworth was probably the most valuable player that year he was playing on a Broken laeg and torn calf muscle; which really did cost him his career in the NFL. He player on sheer guts. But all we seem to remeber that he was a bust, not why he really never had a chance to be all that he could be as an NFL DE.

Bobcat

 

[kerouac9]

I know that most of ya wn't agree with me, but Andre Wadsworth was probably the most valuable player that year he was playing on a Broken laeg and torn calf muscle; which really did cost him his career in the NFL. He player on sheer guts. But all we seem to remeber that he was a bust, not why he really never had a chance to be all that he could be as an NFL DE.

Bobcat

??? I thought that was his rookie season, when he held out for the first game or two of the season. He produced pretty well, but Jamin Miller was what made that defense happen...

 

[Bobcat]

??? I thought that was his rookie season, when he held out for the first game or two of the season. He produced pretty well, but Jamin Miller was what made that defense happen...

Yes it was, but don't blame the player for holding out. Remeber managment was under the direct control of Mr. B. when there were no belland whisles toany cotracts. He signed the day before the first game, and one player had to be cut and removed from the airplane to make room for Wadsworth to be on the team roster. But playing like he did with what turned out to be career ending injuries really showed me something. Remember this was the year before Mesa voted against the Card's new stadium. The young players felt that they had to win in order to get a new stadium. Ms. Larue stopped that from ever happening in Mesa. Right now I am glad, cause it will be only 10 miles from my house in Glendale. She cost Mesa a **** load of tax dollars that they could really us now, and in the future.

Bobcat

 

[BigDavis75]

??? I thought that was his rookie season, when he held out for the first game or two of the season. He produced pretty well, but Jamin Miller was what made that defense happen...

Why did we let him go, and then he just wasted away in Cleveland, right?

 

[BigDavis75]

I just figured out what I meant as far as this was concerned - I think Aeneas was the more WELL-ROUNDED defensive player but I still think Deion's impact on any game is what elevates him above Aeneas just that little bit. It's not like I think it's a complete blowout between the two. Over the last 20 years, and ever since I've watched football, I've never seen two better corners in my life. I was never enamroed with Woodson... thought he was a bit overrated and always loved Aeneas, but I still give Deion the edge - moreso based on what I saw of him when he was on the Falcons, than when he was on the Niners and Cowboys. My brother went to Emory right around the time the Falcons drafted Deion so they became my second favorite team - thus I followed Deion's career from that point forward and his impact on that club couldn't be denied.

Fair enough, it just comes down as to what you would like in your corners.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Why did we let him go, and then he just wasted away in Cleveland, right?

We let him go because we were the Cardinals which meant (up until DG took over) we were basically ********. We decided that Rob Moore's 32 year old ass and Jake Plummer's development was more important than the leader of the defense - a 25 year old stud who played the last 10 game so fthe season with a broken hand and STILL was our best player.

He actually then led the AFC in sacks with 16 or something like that the next year... made the Pro Bowl... renegotiated his contract and got an 18 million dollar deal. Then injuries took him out and he never recovered. Hardly what I would call "wasting away". Injuries destoryed his career but he was a flat out stud - a potential heir apparent to Wilbur Marshall in the LBer world.

 

[kerouac9]

Yes it was, but don't blame the player for holding out. Remeber managment was under the direct control of Mr. B. when there were no belland whisles toany cotracts. He signed the day before the first game, and one player had to be cut and removed from the airplane to make room for Wadsworth to be on the team roster. But playing like he did with what turned out to be career ending injuries really showed me something. Remember this was the year before Mesa voted against the Card's new stadium. The young players felt that they had to win in order to get a new stadium. Ms. Larue stopped that from ever happening in Mesa. Right now I am glad, cause it will be only 10 miles from my house in Glendale. She cost Mesa a **** load of tax dollars that they could really us now, and in the future.

Bobcat

Huh? I don't remember him being injured that season--his rookie year. I never heard anything about it. Are you sure? When did he injure it? Wadsworth played 11 games the following season... why didn't he get any of that repaired in the offseason?

This is the first time that I've heard this story ever on this board. Forgive me if it sounds a little fishy. And I'm not blaming the player for holding out--I usually give the player the benefit of the doubt, since 70% of the time the signing bonus for first-round rookies is the biggest payday they're ever going to get--I'm just doubting the story that it was his rookie season that ended his career.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Huh? I don't remember him being injured that season--his rookie year. I never heard anything about it. Are you sure? When did he injure it? Wadsworth played 11 games the following season... why didn't he get any of that repaired in the offseason?

i actually remember that also. Both him and Mark Smith were playing on busted knees at the end of the season - distancing themselves from the Cancer that was Eric Swann.

I still maintain it was Jamir though - also playing with a broken wrist yet still being our best player - as the best player/leader of that defense. The guy had everything - speed (the guy ran Barry Sanders down from behind - one of the greatest plays I've ever seen), heart and a mean streak that was unmatched on our team. I'd put AW next... then Simeon... then Mark Smith... then Ronnie Mac... then Wads - man - that team actually DID have a pretty solid group of talent on D.

 

[Bobcat]

i actually remember that also. Both him and Mark Smith were playing on busted knees at the end of the season - distancing themselves from the Cancer that was Eric Swann.

I still maintain it was Jamir though - also playing with a broken wrist yet still being our best player - as the best player/leader of that defense. The guy had everything - speed (the guy ran Barry Sanders down from behind - one of the greatest plays I've ever seen), heart and a mean streak that was unmatched on our team. I'd put AW next... then Simeon... then Mark Smith... then Ronnie Mac... then Wads - man - that team actually DID have a pretty solid group of talent on D.

Thank you..!!! Wadsworth was so hurt, it was hell just watching him play. K9 just must have it in for me. We never seem to agree on anything. Always tries to make me look like a fool.

Thank you again

Bobcat

 

[ajcardfan]

i actually remember that also. Both him and Mark Smith were playing on busted knees at the end of the season - distancing themselves from the Cancer that was Eric Swann.

Actually, what happened was he had a chunk of his shin (about the size of a quarter) taken out on a cut block in that really cold and rainy Giants game. He didn't come out, although he was noticably limping everywhere. He finished the season without missing any games. But he believed playing on that injury started, or at least sped up, his knee problems which came to light that next season. At least that's what he told me. IMO, no Cardinals player was more unjustly criticized than Wadsworth. But, with his draft position, the money paid him, and the hopes pinned on him, I can also understand why people got angry with him.

 

[BigDavis75]

I'm sorry if you have answered these questions over and over again. What happened to Mark Smith? Also, why do you call Swann a "cancer"?

 

[BigDavis75]

I'm sorry if you have answered these questions over and over again. What happened to Mark Smith? Also, why do you call Swann a "cancer"?

Can someone help me out here? I didn't follow off the field nearly as close as I do now.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I'm sorry if you have answered these questions over and over again. What happened to Mark Smith? Also, why do you call Swann a "cancer"?

Because apparently the coaching staff thought he was having a negative effect on the young Defensive players.

As far as Mark Smith - I think injuries plagued his career after his breakout rookie season. Guy had 9 sacks as a DT for us. I thought he was gonna be special.

 

[BigDavis75]

Because apparently the coaching staff thought he was having a negative effect on the young Defensive players.

As far as Mark Smith - I think injuries plagued his career after his breakout rookie season. Guy had 9 sacks as a DT for us. I thought he was gonna be special.

Then did Smith go to another team after that? As far as Swann he was one of the most dominating players I have ever seen, Simeon turned out to be a cancer too didn't he?

 

[ajcardfan]

Then did Smith go to another team after that? As far as Swann he was one of the most dominating players I have ever seen, Simeon turned out to be a cancer too didn't he?

Smith hurt his knee, and had a contract squabble and holdout the next two seasons after his great rookie year. Fergie at one point said he could "work at McDonald's" if he didn't want to play for 300K. Smith was cut by McGinnis in his first offseason as coach, and he went to Cleveland where he hung around for two or three years.

One connection between Smith, Swann and Wadsworth was they all went to Colorado for knee surgery from Dr. Steadman rather than the Cards docs. Some people never forgave them for that, Skkorp for one. But, apparently, most of the team didn't like the Cards docs, even Aeneas made a trip to Vail during training camp for a second opinion on his knee.

To me, Swann was the guy who's heart was the most questionable. He brought a lot of it on himself when he refused to play a game because of a dislocated pinky. I mean, you compare that to all the stories every single year about guys playing hurt, what can you say? I always wondered what Larry Wilson, who once played a game with two broken arms, thought about that.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Then did Smith go to another team after that? As far as Swann he was one of the most dominating players I have ever seen, Simeon turned out to be a cancer too didn't he?

Yup - he sure did. Simeon was a great player but he was (and is) a total jackass (although, to be honest, at least he played and was productive as opposed to Swann who was ALL potential and not much elese). See AJ's response about Swann - he speaks for me also there.

 

[BigDavis75]

So Smith held out for two years!! I just thought we traded him or something when I didn't see him next year.

 

[Cheesebeef]

So Smith held out for two years!!

wha? I thought he played - he just sucked when he came back. Did he not even play?

 

[BigDavis75]

wha? I thought he played - he just sucked when he came back. Did he not even play?

Read AJ's post.

 

[ajcardfan]

So Smith held out for two years!! I just thought we traded him or something when I didn't see him next year.

He even missed regular season games in one, maybe even both, of those holdouts. His beef is pretty similar to Boldin's in a way. Although Boldin had a much greater rookie year than Smith did. The Cards are handling Boldin completely differently.

 

[ajcardfan]

wha? I thought he played - he just sucked when he came back. Did he not even play?

He played, although he lost one of those seasons when his knee blew up on him again. That was after he had Steadman's surgery.

 

[BigDavis75]

He even missed regular season games in one, maybe even both, of those holdouts. His beef is pretty similar to Boldin's in a way. Although Boldin had a much greater rookie year than Smith did. The Cards are handling Boldin completely differently.

I stil think about how great of a D we had and how the league was pretty much put on a platter for our D-Line to tear up, but it never materialized.

 

[Brian]

I stil think about how great of a D we had and how the league was pretty much put on a platter for our D-Line to tear up, but it never materialized.

If I'm not mistaken, and somebody feel free to correct me on this, but I believe Eric Swann, Mark Smith, Simeon Rice, and Andre Wadsworth never played a down of football in a regular season game together. As a unit.

I remember back then making fun of a buddy of mine who was a Raider fan, telling him that if he laid on his back and stared at the sky he'd get some idea of the view the Raider QB was gonna have the whole game. As it was, that D-line never happened. I believe we lost that game (IIRC it was a GREAT game). My buddy called the pick that Woodson returned for a TD before the ball was snapped, because Jake was just staring down Rob Moore? after they broke the huddle and Woodson was just waiting on it.

Oh well, at least that is history and we have this year to look forward to.

 

[chickenhead]

Aside from Tillman, I say no retiring numbers anytime soon. We have 4 retired numbers already. The Packers have only 5. The Canadiens have only 7. Those two clubs have 36 championships between them. The Cardinals are older than both and have only 1. We have a ways to go.

 

[BigDavis75]

IMO when we parted ways with the four members of that D-Line they all ended on sour notes, hold maybe Wadsworth's parting.