Should The Suns Force Marion To Change His Shot?

[George O'Brien]

Over the last four seasons, Marion's three point shoothing has declined steadily

01-02 39.3%
02-03 38.7%
03-04 34.0%
04-05 33.4%

It is hard to escape the theory that Marion's three point shooting has declined because he has an ugly shot. It is shot from chest high with very little arc.

My guess is that Marion is more accurate from the corner than from the wing, although I don't have hard data to support that observation. In any case, I would rather see Marion attack the basket than take threes due to gradual decline in his shooting from year to year.

Marion is inconsistent. Last season, he had a severe drop from a respectable 39.7% in Dec to just 34.2% in Jan, 30.6% in Feb 30.0% in Mar and 32.6% in Apr. Marion is much better shooting the three at home 35.8% than on the road at 31.0%, but even his home average is barley average.

The case for having Marion shooting inside the arc is simple. He hit only 33.4% beyond the arc last seson but was 57.5% inside the arc. Obviously most of those were layups, but certainly not all.

If the Suns feel that Marion needs to be shooting three pointers, I'm disappointed they have not insisted that Marion change the mechanics of his shot. He needs to get a higher release and more arch if he shooting contested shots, but even uncontested shots aren't going. He may have had success with that shot in the past, but it isn't working.

Maybe he will rediscover the range without changing his stroke. I'm skeptical. Right now I'm just hoping he doesn't shoot three pointers as much.

 

[elindholm]

A professional basketball player's shot has been honed -- for better or worse! -- throughout his entire life. You can't just learn to shoot differently in the span of a few months and expect to have good results. Look at the great players who, even after all this time, still can't shoot, like Kidd. It's a lot harder than it looks, and once players find something that even "sort of" works for them, they're going to stick with it.

 

[Dan H]

Reggie Miller was one of the greatest shooters in NBA history, and he had an ugly shot as well. Some players have a beautiful, textbook stroke, and can't hit the broad side of a barn - a la Casey Jacobsen. Shawn's shot is effective, the question is what other changes have occured which would have led to his percentage going down? I believe he's been taking many more three pointers than in the past, which could account for the lower percentage.

 

[Yuma]

Um,

NO!

 

[SunsTzu]

Yes, lets get Leandro's brother to beat him with a stick until he does.

 

[scotsman13]

no

 

[Mike Olbinski]

Doesn't he hate it when people talk about his shot being so bad? And yet it still seems to go in when it matters?

How about we don't talk about changing it? I mean, who cares really...

Good points about Reggie Miller...

Mike

 

[Joe Mama]

Doesn't he hate it when people talk about his shot being so bad? And yet it still seems to go in when it matters?

That's right. I forgot that three-point shots count for more at certain points in the game.

I have a different take on this. If the player makes the shots in the first second and third quarters the team will have more points than if he just makes them at the end of the game.

George, this has to be one of your more ridiculous threads. There's no way they are going to try to change Shawn Marion's shot now. I haven't gone back to watching eclipse, but I don't remember him having a flat trajectory either. He just has an ugly shot altogether.

Jump shooting last year:

Inside 17 feet - 39.2%
17 feet to three point - 43.9%
three-point range - 33.4%

Joe Mama

 

[wilecoyotesupergenius]

Over the last four seasons, Marion's three point shoothing has declined steadily

01-02 39.3%
02-03 38.7%
03-04 34.0%
04-05 33.4%

It is hard to escape the theory that Marion's three point shooting has declined because he has an ugly shot. It is shot from chest high with very little arc.

My guess is that Marion is more accurate from the corner than from the wing, although I don't have hard data to support that observation. In any case, I would rather see Marion attack the basket than take threes due to gradual decline in his shooting from year to year.

Marion is inconsistent. Last season, he had a severe drop from a respectable 39.7% in Dec to just 34.2% in Jan, 30.6% in Feb 30.0% in Mar and 32.6% in Apr. Marion is much better shooting the three at home 35.8% than on the road at 31.0%, but even his home average is barley average.

The case for having Marion shooting inside the arc is simple. He hit only 33.4% beyond the arc last seson but was 57.5% inside the arc. Obviously most of those were layups, but certainly not all.

If the Suns feel that Marion needs to be shooting three pointers, I'm disappointed they have not insisted that Marion change the mechanics of his shot. He needs to get a higher release and more arch if he shooting contested shots, but even uncontested shots aren't going. He may have had success with that shot in the past, but it isn't working.

Maybe he will rediscover the range without changing his stroke. I'm skeptical. Right now I'm just hoping he doesn't shoot three pointers as much.

Are you serious????

Shawn Marion played most of the year for us at.....POWER FORWARD.

His 3 point fg% (at PF) was .334% (not bad for a power forward who was one of the best in the League at rebounds).

Even more impressive was his PLAYOFF numbers....he shot .385% in the first round from 3pt range in the first series...(it gets better)...

...and in the conference semifinals he shot a staggering.....522%.......I repeat.....522%...BEST ON THE TEAM...

...Marion's total 3pt shooting percentage for the entire playoffs was .419%....(ABOVE 40%).......yet you suggest that they mess with his shot....

...amazing....

 

[elindholm]

I can't believe that some people are comparing Marion's shot with Reggie Miller's. I mean, seriously.

 

[Mike Olbinski]

I can't believe that some people are comparing Marion's shot with Reggie Miller's. I mean, seriously.

They are not comparion his shot to Miller's, they are just saying he has a funky release as well, and it worked for him.

Mike

 

[elindholm]

Yeah, but, come on, there's funky and then there's FUNKY. Miller has an NBA shooting mechanic, pretty clearly. Marion doesn't.

 

[hcsilla]

Reggie Miller was one of the greatest shooters in NBA history, and he had an ugly shot as well. Some players have a beautiful, textbook stroke, and can't hit the broad side of a barn - a la Casey Jacobsen.

I do think that's a legend.

Casey Jacobsen never had a textbook-jumper.

 

[Neo]

Marion is obviously no Reggie Miller, but that does not mean the Suns should force him to rework his shot either. He is not a great 3 point shooter, but he isn't bad for a guy that averages 10 rebounds per game.

If you want to throw out names of guys with ugly shots that can knock down the three-ball, don't forget about Larry Bird. His shot was at times super-ugly, but he was as great a shooter as the League has ever had.

 

[SactownSunsFan]

Messing with a man's jumpshot is like messing with his woman. Unless it's gone absolutely ******** you just don't do it

 

[hcsilla]

If you want to throw out names of guys with ugly shots that can knock down the three-ball, don't forget about Larry Bird.

My vote goes to Peja Stojakovic.

 

[Chaplin]

If they wanted to change Marion's shot, they would have done it 5 years ago. They're not going to start now.

 

[Neo]

Messing with a man's jumpshot is like messing with his woman. Unless it's gone absolutely ******** you just don't do it

So you would mess with a guy's woman if she was ********????? That is messed up.

In defense of Jacobsen, he did lead the Suns if three point percentage one year and was in the top 10 for the NBA.

 

[George O'Brien]

Jump shooting last year:

Inside 17 feet - 39.2%
17 feet to three point - 43.9%
three-point range - 33.4%

Joe Mama

Thank you for the stats. Does he use the same mechanics on his inside the arc shots? I know his floater is totally different but I can't remember on his 17 to arc shots.

My problem with his three point shot is not just that it is ugly. The mechanics of it involve pushing the ball rather than using the wrists. Wrist muscles don't suffer as much from fatiuge as arm and shoulder muscles.

If Marion's three point shot uses the same mechanics as his 17 to arc; then he just needs to get closer and not shoot from as far out. On the other hand, if the mechanics are different inside the arc than outside, it might help to tweek his mechanics to get his three point shooting up to the NBA average.

Does anyone have stats on the difference between shots from the corner and shots from wing? Since the corner is closer to the basket, this may be that the problem is not his mechanics but just his range.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Doesn't he hate it when people talk about his shot being so bad? And yet it still seems to go in when it matters?

How about we don't talk about changing it? I mean, who cares really...

Good points about Reggie Miller...

Mike

I like Marion as a player but i will get on the soap box if anyone starts referring to him as clutch. Name one time offensivly Shawn just took over a game in the fourth and/or hit a game winning shot (that was not a tip in) Dude has game but he can't create his own shot. Thats killer when defenses clamp down in the fourth of close games. I cant count how many times these last three years Marion would shoot his little baseline jumper or take a midrange shot in the last three minutes in a game and i would literally cringe. He improved this year but i would say Joe, Steve, Amare, Q, and Jimmy are still guys who i wanted to shoot when the game was on the line over the Matrix.

Oh and leave his three point sho mechanics alone. We dont NEED him to shoot like Peja. His other skills are much more important. He makes more than you would think if you only saw his release. Those shots just never seem to come when it matters most.

 

[elindholm]

Name one time offensivly Shawn just took over a game in the fourth

How about overtime? The extra session in Game 6 against Dallas was all Marion. I agree that he can't do it often, but give credit where it's due.

 

[George O'Brien]

Name one time offensivly Shawn just took over a game in the fourth

How about overtime? The extra session in Game 6 against Dallas was all Marion. I agree that he can't do it often, but give credit where it's due.

I remember a him hitting a three to win a game. I was going "Oh noooooooo, Oh Yessss".

In general, I think he may shoot better when the game is on the line, but not enough better to be my first choice.

 

[Errntknght]

Screw changing his shot, change his dang game! Marion could be a lot more valuable if the coach would stop his idiotic bragging that the team doesn't need to run plays for him and start running some. If he'd watch some of Marion's games from past years he'd see that Shawn is deadly shooting a baseline 'cripple' jumper - his rookie year - and later he was very good at curling off screens at midrange. In both cases he was favorably positioned to rebound his shot, too - much better than his pull up jumper where his defender is squared up in front of him. (The plays require off-ball screens so I suppose they're beyond coach Mikey but maybe his bro used them with his high school teams.)

Probably even more valuable for the team would be for Shawn to work along the baseline. Many times I've watched him miss a chance to backdoor his man when Steve came off a high pick. Even if you want to avoid it when Amare is cooking on the roll, that much coordination of activity shouldn't be beyond a pro team.

If the team implements some plays with Amare in the high post as point center, the place you want movement most is along the baseline because that's the direction Amare will be facing. KT very likely knows how to set baseline picks and what their purpose is so there's a chance he'll get Shawn to go along with him without the coaches having to wake up.

In fact, when Amare is set up in mid-high post Shawn could curl up & off him and if they get nothing more than a defensive switch out of it Amare would get an easier trip to the rim. If the ball goes to Shawn for a shot and there's any defensive confusion Amare gets a lane for the rebound.

This is a trifle off topic but one thing I like about Amare as the point center or anything else that offers good alternatives to the pick and roll is that Nash shouldn't tire as quickly. Teams use that play to beat up on Nash now and it will probably get worse if we keep using it so frequently.

There is a reason not to change Marion's funky shot - he uses it for FTs, too, and those might get messed up, too.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Screw changing his shot, change his dang game! Marion could be a lot more valuable if the coach would stop his idiotic bragging that the team doesn't need to run plays for him and start running some. If he'd watch some of Marion's games from past years he'd see that Shawn is deadly shooting a baseline 'cripple' jumper - his rookie year - and later he was very good at curling off screens at midrange. In both cases he was favorably positioned to rebound his shot, too - much better than his pull up jumper where his defender is squared up in front of him. (The plays require off-ball screens so I suppose they're beyond coach Mikey but maybe his bro used them with his high school teams.)

Probably even more valuable for the team would be for Shawn to work along the baseline. Many times I've watched him miss a chance to backdoor his man when Steve came off a high pick. Even if you want to avoid it when Amare is cooking on the roll, that much coordination of activity shouldn't be beyond a pro team.

If the team implements some plays with Amare in the high post as point center, the place you want movement most is along the baseline because that's the direction Amare will be facing. KT very likely knows how to set baseline picks and what their purpose is so there's a chance he'll get Shawn to go along with him without the coaches having to wake up.

In fact, when Amare is set up in mid-high post Shawn could curl up & off him and if they get nothing more than a defensive switch out of it Amare would get an easier trip to the rim. If the ball goes to Shawn for a shot and there's any defensive confusion Amare gets a lane for the rebound.

This is a trifle off topic but one thing I like about Amare as the point center or anything else that offers good alternatives to the pick and roll is that Nash shouldn't tire as quickly. Teams use that play to beat up on Nash now and it will probably get worse if we keep using it so frequently.

There is a reason not to change Marion's funky shot - he uses it for FTs, too, and those might get messed up, too.

Good analysis!

I might not agree but you made a point and you made it well.....

 

[Amaretotheline_]

I remember Shawn taking over a game in the second half against the Kings a few years ago. It was on TNT, and the Suns still had Marbs. I'm pretty sure it was Amare's rookie year.

Shawn really dominated in the second half and we won the game.