Simmons traded to Giants for a 7th

[TRW]

The NFL world is weird.

Had Simmons stayed he would have sucked again (because he's sucked in practice and in preseason) and he would have walked for nothing. And everyone here and in the larger NFL world would have said "It's Keim's fault. Bust pick".

But because the new regime already sees that coming from watching him practice and watching his film and trades him for a 7th round pick it's "They only got a 7th! If he balls out now Monti is going to look stupid."

The FO and coaches KNOW exactly what Simmons is and they got what they could for him because they strongly believe he isn't good enough to be a starter and his future, if he has one, lies elsewhere.

The smart move is exactly what they have done. The old regime would have done nothing and let him walk for nothing.

Except the “new regime” paid him a couple of million dollars a couple of weeks ago and then, in essence, TRADED him away for nothing.
Not arguing that Simmons isn’t sub par, just that the “new regime” didn’t do much better than the old.
But, in the long term it doesn’t matter, Simmons is gonzo either way. Time will tell if this scorched earth plan works.

 

[Chopper0080]

The NFL world is weird.

Had Simmons stayed he would have sucked again (because he's sucked in practice and in preseason) and he would have walked for nothing. And everyone here and in the larger NFL world would have said "It's Keim's fault. Bust pick".

But because the new regime already sees that coming from watching him practice and watching his film and trades him for a 7th round pick it's "They only got a 7th! If he balls out now Monti is going to look stupid."

The FO and coaches KNOW exactly what Simmons is and they got what they could for him because they strongly believe he isn't good enough to be a starter and his future, if he has one, lies elsewhere.

The smart move is exactly what they have done. The old regime would have done nothing and let him walk for nothing.

Since when is a 7th round pick something? We have people saying it is completely fine throwing away 5th round picks.

As I said previously, my biggest issue here was the timing. Especially if Monti is being honest when he said this began back in mini-camp. Monti paid 2.5 mil for a 7th round pick but couldn't pay 2 mil for Dobbs which cost them a 5th. That is bad GMing.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

The smart move is exactly what they have done. The old regime would have done nothing and let him walk for nothing.

You mean like this regime did with Hopkins, Murphy, and Allen?

 

[BritCard]

Except the “new regime” paid him a couple of million dollars a couple of weeks ago and then, in essence, TRADED him away for nothing.
Not arguing that Simmons isn’t sub par, just that the “new regime” didn’t do much better than the old.
But, in the long term it doesn’t matter, Simmons is gonzo either way. Time will tell if this scorched earth plan works.

Have you considered they tried and nobody wanted to trade anything and pay $3.5m for a year of a failed defender nobody knows where to play and hasn't been any good at any of them?

I certainly wouldn't. That's how bad Simmons has been.

 

[BritCard]

You mean like this regime did with Hopkins, Murphy, and Allen?

Not sure how Monti is supposed to go back in time and trade them a year before their deals ran out. Or in Hopkins case, not give him a contract that made him the highest paid receiver in the league at nearly 31.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Since when is a 7th round pick something? We have people saying it is completely fine throwing away 5th round picks.

As I said previously, my biggest issue here was the timing. Especially if Monti is being honest when he said this began back in mini-camp. Monti paid 2.5 mil for a 7th round pick but couldn't pay 2 mil for Dobbs which cost them a 5th. That is bad GMing.

They probably wanted him for less, but the cost he signed for was more than they wanted to pay at the time. Now that they have had an extended look at McCoy, they know he's cooked. So making a move for a competent backup isnt a bad move.

 

[TRW]

Have you considered they tried and nobody wanted to trade anything and pay $3.5m for a year of a failed defender nobody knows where to play and hasn't been any good at any of them?

I certainly wouldn't. That's how bad Simmons has been.

I knew you would respond with something like this.

But, it's good to see your contrariness back Brit. You are in mid season form

 

[BritCard]

Since when is a 7th round pick something? We have people saying it is completely fine throwing away 5th round picks.

As I said previously, my biggest issue here was the timing. Especially if Monti is being honest when he said this began back in mini-camp. Monti paid 2.5 mil for a 7th round pick but couldn't pay 2 mil for Dobbs which cost them a 5th. That is bad GMing.

I'm pretty sure that a 7th is something and that nothing is nothing. It's not a good something, but it's more than nothing. The point being the narrative where he gets something is bad, but had he walked for nothing it would have been fine.

Who was trading for Simmons and taking on his roster bonus and salary? For a guy who's got no position and hasn't been good at any he's tried?

And how could they trade or cut him before camp? Without even seeing him in pads or a game? Seriously. What would fans here have said his this new regime cut or traded Simmons before they even saw him in action?

They had no real choice but to eat the roster bonus and hope what they saw in camp was worth it.

 

[BritCard]

I knew you would respond with something like this.

But, it's good to see your contrariness back Brit. You are in mid season form

I'm always happy to be contrary to bad takes

I just don't see the options here. It's hindsight 101.

They are supposed to cut him or trade him before seeing him play? Before seeing him in a padded practice? OTA's is just running around in shorts and working on fundamentals. There's no football involved.

How are they supposed to assess him as a football player to know if he's good enough and fits the scheme before camp starts?

 

[TRW]

I'm always happy to be contrary to bad takes

I just don't see the options here. It's hindsight 101.

They are supposed to cut him or trade him before seeing him play? Before seeing him in a padded practice? OTA's is just running around in shorts and working on fundamentals. There's no football involved.

How are they supposed to assess him as a football player to know if he's good enough and fits the scheme before camp starts?

Okee dokee.

 

[Harry]

I would not be surprised at all if Wink Martindale turns him into a double digit sack guy by blitzing him up the A gap and having him come off the edge in certain packages.

I totally agree. This is clearly the role that matches his skillset, yet the Cards never even tried. The return was so weak this trade, before you’ve exhausted every option, speaks more about the coaches creativity.

 

[DVontel]

This is clearly the role that matches his skillset, yet the Cards never even tried.

You wanted him to do that all game like this is Madden?

“Hey, let’s have Isaiah blitz up the middle 30 times a game & 20 other times off the EDGE”.

 

[kerouac9]

The NFL world is weird.

Had Simmons stayed he would have sucked again (because he's sucked in practice and in preseason) and he would have walked for nothing. And everyone here and in the larger NFL world would have said "It's Keim's fault. Bust pick".

But because the new regime already sees that coming from watching him practice and watching his film and trades him for a 7th round pick it's "They only got a 7th! If he balls out now Monti is going to look stupid."

The FO and coaches KNOW exactly what Simmons is and they got what they could for him because they strongly believe he isn't good enough to be a starter and his future, if he has one, lies elsewhere.

The smart move is exactly what they have done. The old regime would have done nothing and let him walk for nothing.

The definition of a "bust pick" here is absurd. Simmons started 37 games in three seasons, had 4 INTs, 7 forced fumbles, and 7.5 sacks. By no definition is this a bust, and you can tell because the usual suspects were defining him as a disappointment until 24 hours ago when the trade was announced.

Now he was unplayable, a bust, worse than Zeke Turner.

Have you considered they tried and nobody wanted to trade anything and pay $3.5m for a year of a failed defender nobody knows where to play and hasn't been any good at any of them?

I certainly wouldn't. That's how bad Simmons has been.

Maybe they did, but there's no evidence of that. As you say, it would have been insane for them to get rid of him without seeing him first, right?

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Every game for 3 seasons he's mostly sucked.

Summon the revisionist historian!

Oh, I see he’s already here.

 

[Chopper0080]

They probably wanted him for less, but the cost he signed for was more than they wanted to pay at the time. Now that they have had an extended look at McCoy, they know he's cooked. So making a move for a competent backup isnt a bad move.

Nothing proves Dobbs is a competent backup. He was just beat out for the #2 spot in Cleveland by a rookie. A year after he was beat out for a spot by Jacoby Brissett. And he is on a one year deal.

In your world of "how many wins does he add" being the barometer of worth, how many wins does Dobbs add?

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Have they made one single solitary move that's clearly intended to add talent immediately so they can compete this season?!

They literally did yesterday. Giving up a 5th rounder in the misguided belief that Dobbs is significantly better then what they have.

I'd love for someone, anyone, to defend that decision. It's the cherry on top of questionable decisions from the beginning. From the mickey mouse reaching out to Gannon, to the utter disaster of the Hop negotiations, to now dumping your talented but enigmatic players to get which scrub reps? Do we need to see more of Jesse Luketa?

People are open to the idea of a rebuild, but this has been an awfully strange way of doing it.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Even Mitch gets it...

Op-Ed: Cardinals get a paucity of return value on three trades

Net return? Isaiah Simmons and Josh Jones for Josh Dobbs and a 7th round pick

www.revengeofthebirds.com

And perhaps, most egregiously, trading a 5th round pick to the Browns for journeyman backup QB Joshua Dobbs and a 7th round pick is egregious.


While the Cardinals tear their players down and then try to trade them —- look at how clever the Browns were.


On Wednesday they announced that Josh Dobbs would be their primary backup (aka QB2) to Deshaun Watson while relegating pre-season phenom Dorian Thompson-Robinson to third string.

Check out DTR’s pre-season stats:

• 21-16 W over NYJ: 8/11, 82 yds., 7.5 ave., 1 TD 0 int, 124.1 rating
• 15-17 L to WASH: 9/10, 102 yds., 10.2 ave. 1 TD 0 int. 142.5 rating
• 18-18 T with PHI: 13/24, 164 yds., 6.6 ave., 0 TD ) int 72.5 rating

Check out Joshua Dobbs”:

• 15-17 L WASH: 8/16, 72 yds., 4.8 ave., 0 TD 1 int, 37.8 rating

if push ever came to shove, would the Browns really have played Dobbs over Thompson-Robinson?


So, why then didn’t the Brown just release Joshua Dobbs and aptly designate DTR as QB2?


Because they didn’t want to get stuck having to eat Dobbs’ 1 year $2M fully guaranteed contract. A contract they had come to regret.


This gets even more significant —- because during free agency Josh Dobbs turned down a chance to possibly start for the Cardinals while Kyler Murray was going though rehab in order to stay with the Browns as a backup at a fully guaranteed $2M.


No one knows what kind of contract the Cardinals were offering Dobbs, but, hey, it looks pretty clear that the Browns’ deal eclipsed whatever package the Cardinals were offering him.


Someone in the Cardinals’ organization, most likely Michael Bidwill, must have convinced Monti Ossenfort and Jonathan Gannon to keep Colt McCoy, despite the fact that McCoy suffered through significant arm injuries and a season-ending concussion in 2022.


And now with Colt McCoy struggling to hold up physically, Monti Ossenfort enters the Browns’ mousetrap and takes the bait to the tune of agreeing to send a 5th round pick in order to seal the deal for Josh Dobbs.


Had they waited until early next week, chances are the Browns would have released Dobbs.


That actually would have been better for both Dobbs and the Cardinals because Dobbs would be making at least $1M more this season on top of the $2M guaranteed he received from the Browns —- and the Cardinals would have saved a 5th round pick.


But, the point is, the Browns knew how to maximize their player’s market value, while the Cardinals have been engaged in doing the polar opposite.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

You wanted him to do that all game like this is Madden?

“Hey, let’s have Isaiah blitz up the middle 30 times a game & 20 other times off the EDGE”.

Seems like a better plan than using the tomato cans they have to do it! Isaiah had the highest pass rushing grade on the team at 82.5 —- in 65 rushes, he recorded 9 QB pressures and 4 sacks. That’s a very good win ratio. Why not keep him as a situational pass rusher? That's a far better use of his skills than having him "play" safety.

Who is going to bring the pass rush, the most important thing a D can do?

 

[Krangodnzr]

Nothing proves Dobbs is a competent backup. He was just beat out for the #2 spot in Cleveland by a rookie.

Fake news.

Kevin Stefanski confirms Joshua Dobbs is Browns backup QB

The Browns made a move earlier on Wednesday that signaled their intentions with their quarterbacks when they waived Kellen Mond.

www.nbcsports.com

A year after he was beat out for a spot by Jacoby Brissett. And he is on a one year deal.

Brissett who is universally considered one of the best backup QBs in the league.

In your world of "how many wins does he add" being the barometer of worth, how many wins does Dobbs add?

Not many, but if our speculation that the team thinks McCoy might be done, it's a much more palatable move to have Dobbs than Tune or Blough to start.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Even Mitch gets it...

Op-Ed: Cardinals get a paucity of return value on three trades

Net return? Isaiah Simmons and Josh Jones for Josh Dobbs and a 7th round pick

www.revengeofthebirds.com

And perhaps, most egregiously, trading a 5th round pick to the Browns for journeyman backup QB Joshua Dobbs and a 7th round pick is egregious.


While the Cardinals tear their players down and then try to trade them —- look at how clever the Browns were.


On Wednesday they announced that Josh Dobbs would be their primary backup (aka QB2) to Deshaun Watson while relegating pre-season phenom Dorian Thompson-Robinson to third string.

Check out DTR’s pre-season stats:

• 21-16 W over NYJ: 8/11, 82 yds., 7.5 ave., 1 TD 0 int, 124.1 rating
• 15-17 L to WASH: 9/10, 102 yds., 10.2 ave. 1 TD 0 int. 142.5 rating
• 18-18 T with PHI: 13/24, 164 yds., 6.6 ave., 0 TD ) int 72.5 rating

Check out Joshua Dobbs”:

• 15-17 L WASH: 8/16, 72 yds., 4.8 ave., 0 TD 1 int, 37.8 rating

if push ever came to shove, would the Browns really have played Dobbs over Thompson-Robinson?


So, why then didn’t the Brown just release Joshua Dobbs and aptly designate DTR as QB2?


Because they didn’t want to get stuck having to eat Dobbs’ 1 year $2M fully guaranteed contract. A contract they had come to regret.


This gets even more significant —- because during free agency Josh Dobbs turned down a chance to possibly start for the Cardinals while Kyler Murray was going though rehab in order to stay with the Browns as a backup at a fully guaranteed $2M.


No one knows what kind of contract the Cardinals were offering Dobbs, but, hey, it looks pretty clear that the Browns’ deal eclipsed whatever package the Cardinals were offering him.


Someone in the Cardinals’ organization, most likely Michael Bidwill, must have convinced Monti Ossenfort and Jonathan Gannon to keep Colt McCoy, despite the fact that McCoy suffered through significant arm injuries and a season-ending concussion in 2022.


And now with Colt McCoy struggling to hold up physically, Monti Ossenfort enters the Browns’ mousetrap and takes the bait to the tune of agreeing to send a 5th round pick in order to seal the deal for Josh Dobbs.


Had they waited until early next week, chances are the Browns would have released Dobbs.


That actually would have been better for both Dobbs and the Cardinals because Dobbs would be making at least $1M more this season on top of the $2M guaranteed he received from the Browns —- and the Cardinals would have saved a 5th round pick.


But, the point is, the Browns knew how to maximize their player’s market value, while the Cardinals have been engaged in doing the polar opposite.

Quoting Mitch literally undermines your argument.

Last week, he was speculating that Isabella might have been as good as DK Metcalf if he had gotten more PT.

 

[Cheesebeef]

They literally did yesterday. Giving up a 5th rounder in the misguided belief that Dobbs is significantly better then what they have.

I'd love for someone, anyone, to defend that decision. It's the cherry on top of questionable decisions from the beginning. From the mickey mouse reaching out to Gannon, to the utter disaster of the Hop negotiations, to now dumping your talented but enigmatic players to get which scrub reps? Do we need to see more of Jesse Luketa?

People are open to the idea of a rebuild, but this has been an awfully strange way of doing it.

For me, I just see a team that keeps on being late to the game. Late to the game trying to get their head coach… so they get nailed for tampering.

Late to the game gauging interest in D-Hop so they lose him… for nothing.

Late to the game realizing the obvious that Colt McCoy sucks and so not only are they late to the game getting a stopgap QB, but now lose draft capital to get one.

It’s the pattern on the whole that bothers me, not necessarily the individual moves on their own.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Quoting Mitch literally undermines your argument.

Way to address what he said!

Last week, he was speculating that Isabella might have been as good as DK Metcalf if he had gotten more PT.

Cool! You can believe he's wrong on this, but still recognize he's absolutely right about Dobbs. Let's try to stay on topic as opposed to attacking the source.

 

[BritCard]

The definition of a "bust pick" here is absurd. Simmons started 37 games in three seasons, had 4 INTs, 7 forced fumbles, and 7.5 sacks. By no definition is this a bust, and you can tell because the usual suspects were defining him as a disappointment until 24 hours ago when the trade was announced.

Now he was unplayable, a bust, worse than Zeke Turner.

Maybe they did, but there's no evidence of that. As you say, it would have been insane for them to get rid of him without seeing him first, right?

The definition of a bust pick is a guy that was picked 8th in 2020 that going into year 3 is changing position because he sucked at LB and in 2 preseason games (and through camp apparently) has also sucked at safety.

He was a bust last week. He was a bust 6 months ago.

We all held onto some vague hope that a new defensive HC and DC could perform a miracle and unlock Isaiah Simmons. We should all believe what they are telling us when they agreed to trade him after a month of camp.

When your 8th overall pick is losing snaps to Tanner Vallejo, Ben Niemann and Nick Vigil he's a bust.

You would normally be the first to say that a stat line does not define a player.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

For me, I just see a team that keeps on being late to the game. Late to the game trying to get their head coach… so they get nailed for tampering.

Late to the game gauging interest in D-Hop so they lose him… for nothing.

Late to the game realizing the obvious that Colt McCoy sucks and so not only are they late to the game getting a stopgap QB, but now lose draft capital to get one.

It’s the pattern on the whole that bothers me, not the individual moves themselves.

Loading a FO with neophytes and hey - they don't know what they're doing! Shocker.

 

[DVontel]

Seems like a better plan than using the tomato cans they have to do it!

Is he really any different?

Isaiah had the highest pass rushing grade on the team at 82.5 —- in 65 rushes, he recorded 9 QB pressures and 4 sacks. That’s a very good win ratio. Why not keep him as a situational pass rusher?

Because you don’t draft the 8th overall pick just to be a situational pass rusher. Especially when he’s not being a situational pass rusher, he’s a liability everywhere else.

Who is going to bring the pass rush, the most important thing a D can do?

Hopefully guys that aren’t massive liabilities everywhere else when they’re not blitzing.