So long Leonard

[Duckjake]

Does sitting on the bench count as a position change?

Didn't I see our most recent "first round draft pick that was let go" starting for the Bears at RB in the SuperBowl?

Garrison Hearst was a two time pro bowl selection.

Simeon Rice has a Super Bowl ring and two pro bowl selections.

Not all our first round failures end up like David Boston.

OT: Sadly Ricky Proehl was inactive for the SuperBowl. Would have loved to have seen him play.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Another thing: This IS NOT an either/or situation. We could tag Davis AND have room to sign one more big FA and a couple of depth guys.

Again, that is why I said at least one. Now signing one of them becomes almost manditory IMO.

 

[40yearfan]

And what is this assurance based on? Russ Grimm and Ken Whisenhunt aren't Denny Green. Neither has any personnel experience, and both come from a team that had a good/strong General Manager who made the personnel decisions. Nothing that has come out suggests that this was a football move and not a money move. Last comment coming from Whisenhunt was a vote of confidence to Leonard. Now he's essentially gone.

This is Rod Graves' team. This is Rod Graves' decision. It seems pretty certain that this was not a decision made to put the best possible team on the field in the attempt to make Super Bowl XLII a home game.

That's what you call "a vote of confidence"? He was very non-commital and it was obvious to me that Davis was going to be let go right then.

How can you be so certain RG was the only one involved in this decision? First it was we didn't get Sherman because he wanted too much money and then, after hiring Wiz, it was he won't be allowed to assemble a decent staff because it costs too much money and now we've let Davis go because he costs too much money. Do you see a pattern forming here? You've been wrong twice before. Why should we believe you now?

 

[Pariah]

But it's not Leinart's blindside. If the pocket collapses he can see the pass rush and adjust.

And yet, it was Bigs fault when Leinart hurt his shoulder.

Can't have it both ways.

 

[jefftheshark]

And what is this assurance based on? Russ Grimm and Ken Whisenhunt aren't Denny Green. Neither has any personnel experience, and both come from a team that had a good/strong General Manager who made the personnel decisions. Nothing that has come out suggests that this was a football move and not a money move. Last comment coming from Whisenhunt was a vote of confidence to Leonard. Now he's essentially gone.

This is Rod Graves' team. This is Rod Graves' decision. It seems pretty certain that this was not a decision made to put the best possible team on the field in the attempt to make Super Bowl XLII a home game.

Do you mean that Russ Grimm cannot look at game film from the Cardinals past two seasons, and not know whether or not LD was worth re-signing?

Jeremy Green once said that single biggest mistake that his father made was not blowing-up the o-line. Since he got rid of everyone else except for Davis, it's not very difficult to see who that comment was directed at. Personally, I am glad to see that the coaching staff is not interested in making the same mistakes.

The Shark

 

[Cardinals.Ken]

Are we forgetting how much bad Leonard "Big" Davis plays?

How many of you are basing your concerns of him leaving upon the fact that he gets a good rating in Madden, or the fact that the national media thinks he's our best offenisve lineman.

I'm not concerned that if he departs for greener pastures that we have this HUGE gapping whole at Left Tackle!

He IS the hole at left tackle!

 

[Pariah]

It becomes imperative now that we draft Joe Thomas and hope and pray that he's not another Robert Gallery. I think we need to think about moving up to do it.

We also need to draft a LT in the second or third, too. IMO--as insurance in case Thomas isn't the real-deal.

Hey, maybe we should have tagged Big and traded him for a third rounder so we could do this.

 

[DKCards]

Not when you have a strong general manager, as the Cards are reputed to have.

...................

You still don't answer the question: Why does anyone think that this is the HC's choice and not Graves'? The only possible answer is blind hope, because everything suggests that this is a money decision, not a football one. There's no disputing the fact that this team will be weaker on March 1 than it would have been on February 28.

Hope is not a plan.

I hope that it was a collaborated decision.

To separate the Head coach and the GM completely and having them make decisions without each others input is a recipe for disaster. If you had the best buyer in the world and got the best deals on the best products but none of them were useful for your production department he would be useless and your production would suffer. If they both communicate and make their decisions on what’s best for the overall company then you will have success. The production side might not get every part they want and the buyer might have to overpay for a needed part but if they work together they will be more successful as a whole.

 

[Pariah]

Are we forgetting how much bad Leonard "Big" Davis plays?

That's just it--HE DOESN'T PLAY POORLY. He plays poorly for a #2 pick overall.

 

[SECTION 11]

I'm glad that Jake Long isn't in this years draft. That dude has Bust written all over him.

 

[Gambit]

And yet, it was Bigs fault when Leinart hurt his shoulder.

Can't have it both ways.

I never blamed Big for that. I didn't actually see that game live (I was following it on CBS Sportsline), so I can't really comment on it, but I imagine Leinart could have gotten the ball away before being sacked. Also, sacks happen and QBs don't get hurt every time. It was just unlucky.

 

[kerouac9]

That's what you call "a vote of confidence"? He was very non-commital and it was obvious to me that Davis was going to be let go right then.

How can you be so certain RG was the only one involved in this decision? First it was we didn't get Sherman because he wanted too much money and then, after hiring Wiz, it was he won't be allowed to assemble a decent staff because it costs too much money and now we've let Davis go because he costs too much money. Do you see a pattern forming here? You've been wrong twice before. Why should we believe you now?

Didn't he say that you'd like to have a guy like Leonard on your team? Whis knew where he stood; his boss obviously didn't want the guy back. What would you want Whis to say, "If Leonard Davis isn't re-signed the best we can hope for is a 4-12 season"?

I didn't want Sherman. I said exercise caution with regards to Whis's staff, and it's still unclear to me how much say he had with the DC position considering that Pendergast hasn't been extended.

Graves' comments speaks directly to money, not to bad performance. As does the HC's. That's where that assumption comes from.

The question of why I think this is a Graves decision is fairly obvious: his title and job description makes it his decision.

 

[MadCardDisease]

I beleive that keeping Leonard Davis is our best option. However I'm no football expert. The only thing saving me from jumping on the Cardinals front office in this is that we now have one of the best O-Line coaches in the league.

If we don't sign Davis before the FA period opens, then we had better be very aggressive the first second that the FA perios opens this year. If we hesitate we will miss out on several opertunities to plug holes on this team.

 

[40yearfan]

Didn't he say that you'd like to have a guy like Leonard on your team? Whis knew where he stood; his boss obviously didn't want the guy back. What would you want Whis to say, "If Leonard Davis isn't re-signed the best we can hope for is a 4-12 season"?

I didn't want Sherman. I said exercise caution with regards to Whis's staff, and it's still unclear to me how much say he had with the DC position considering that Pendergast hasn't been extended.

Graves' comments speaks directly to money, not to bad performance. As does the HC's. That's where that assumption comes from.

The question of why I think this is a Graves decision is fairly obvious: his title and job description makes it his decision.

So your saying Wiz doesn't have the balls to buck RG in a situation where he knows it will definetely hurt his team? I guess that means that you have decided that Wiz is a bad hire without ever giving him a chance to perform.

You have no idea whose decision this was, but you default to it being Graves because you disagree with it and you hate Graves. That is not good reasoning.

 

[Mulli]

Seems reasonable to believe this LD decision was discussed in the interview process. If Whis, Grimm, and Graves couldn't agree then, I doubt they would be in disagreement now.

 

[Russ Smith]

Ok, so what is the plan. Tell me there is a plan.

BTW, I have heard San Fran is going to go hard for him. At least we can see first hand if this was the right call.

Yep the rumor is they will go hard after Big, the question is to replace Larry Allen, or to replace Kwame Harris? I also heard SF may let Jonas Jennings go which would mean they want Big at LT.

Jennings is very similar to Big, has been hurt more but similar guy. I don't think they want Big to replace Harris because they already have Adam Snyder ready to do that.

I'm iffy on this decision, if we have a plan to replace Big fine, if we're just assuming it will all work out, huge mistake.

 

[Stout]

You need to re-think that logic, because that's never going to happen.

Your scenario:
Cards franchise LD for $11.4M.
He signs the one year contract.
The Cards approach the Texans and they offer a 3rd rounder for Davis.
Davis accepts a long term deal at market value.

One problem:
What's Big's realistic market value? $6M a year?
Why on Earth would Davis accept a pay cut from a $11.4M to $6M?
He's becoming free agent again next year, so he knows that he can get the same contract AND collect $11.4M while waiting.

You've organized the process wrong. If he's traded as a franchise player, he never actually signs the 11.4 million dollar contract. He signs a long-term deal with his new team instead.

And, yeah, he would ostensibly do it in a heartbeat. Why? Besides leaving here and going home? Because a long term contract at market value (which will be quite high this offseason) will pay more than a 1yr, 11 million deal will. Because he could get hurt or suck next year. Because we could franchise him again after next season.

Maybe now you're realizing the iditioic decision we've made.

 

[D-Dogg]

I have mixed feelings on this. It does put us in a bind as we need to replace LT (or RT, if we slide Wells over). I would have preferred to keep Big unless we knew we would get Joe Thomas (drafting him, IMO, makes Big completely, totally, no doubt about it, expendable).

I think he should have been tagged, so we got compensation.


However, not only is it the money issue right now on Big not being worth his contract, but it seems fairly clear reading between the lines that Big doesn't really want to be here either. It is like a mutual agreement between big and the Cards that they just don't want each other. I can understand that.

I will trust Whiz and Grimm on this matter...in fact, I have supreme confidence that Grimm can coach up anybody we bring in here to play on the line. There are several good lines out there without 10 million dollar talent who all play great together and are a cohesive unit. I don't doubt we could get that.

The draft really becomes big now, and I almost agree with Jason that we need to do whatever it takes to get Joe Thomas. If not, then trade back a bit and grab Levi Brown. Something needs to happen there.

I also want this extra Big money to go to a major FA pickup like Clements.


So, in a nutshell I wish we could have gotten a draft pick out of Big before letting him walk, but since he doesn't seem to have the heart to be on this team I'm ok with sending him packing and will rely on Grimm to coach up and build a solid line, making this ultimately a good decision.

 

[kerouac9]

So your saying Wiz doesn't have the balls to buck RG in a situation where he knows it will definetely hurt his team? I guess that means that you have decided that Wiz is a bad hire without ever giving him a chance to perform.

You have no idea whose decision this was, but you default to it being Graves because you disagree with it and you hate Graves. That is not good reasoning.

Do you use a tool when you're trying to jam words into my mouth, or do you just use your hands?

I'm saying that Whis doesn't have the authority to "buck" RG in a situation where he knows it will definitely hurt his team. There's no other way to put it than that this team is going to be worse on March 1 than it was on February 28. It's not Whis's decision, and since it's his boss making the decision, he doesn't have any other choice but to go along with it and give the tepid thumbs up to it that was quoted in the paper this morning.

I "default" to the decision being Graves' because he's the Vice President of Football Operations, and it is his decision. I do disagree with it, and I think that Graves is a bad general manager, but that has nothing to do with the fact that it is very much Graves' decision, and if he had said, "We're keeping Davis until we find someone better," then Whis wouldn't have had anything to say about that, either.

 

[Mulli]

I have mixed feelings on this. It does put us in a bind as we need to replace LT (or RT, if we slide Wells over). I would have preferred to keep Big unless we knew we would get Joe Thomas (drafting him, IMO, makes Big completely, totally, no doubt about it, expendable).

I think he should have been tagged, so we got compensation.


However, not only is it the money issue right now on Big not being worth his contract, but it seems fairly clear reading between the lines that Big doesn't really want to be here either. It is like a mutual agreement between big and the Cards that they just don't want each other. I can understand that.

I will trust Whiz and Grimm on this matter...in fact, I have supreme confidence that Grimm can coach up anybody we bring in here to play on the line. There are several good lines out there without 10 million dollar talent who all play great together and are a cohesive unit. I don't doubt we could get that.

The draft really becomes big now, and I almost agree with Jason that we need to do whatever it takes to get Joe Thomas. If not, then trade back a bit and grab Levi Brown. Something needs to happen there.

I also want this extra Big money to go to a major FA pickup like Clements.


So, in a nutshell I wish we could have gotten a draft pick out of Big before letting him walk, but since he doesn't seem to have the heart to be on this team I'm ok with sending him packing and will rely on Grimm to coach up and build a solid line, making this ultimately a good decision.

 

[Duckjake]

You have no idea whose decision this was, but you default to it being Graves because you disagree with it and you hate Graves. That is not good reasoning.

Nobody has any idea about why the Cardinals do anything except the people directly involved. However, the fact that LDavis was not extended during a period when the Cardinals were throwing money at any player who could walk and chew gum at the same time is strong evidence that it was a front office decision.

I can hear it now:

RG: It'll cost $15million up front to keep Davis.
BB: $15 MILLION!
RG: Well we could franchise him for $11 million with no up front money.
BB: $11 MILLION!

 

[Trey]

Ugh. I told myself this would happen, and yet even after prepping for the inevitable, I'm still pissed. The only way I will be okay with yet another gaping hole, is if this organization uses the LD money on one of the top FA's. They (Whis?) spoke of fewer but better FA a few weeks ago, and it better happen. Thomas, Briggs, Clements, Samuel. The better get one of these guys with the $11+ million they just saved on LD. 'nuff said.

 

[kerouac9]

Ugh. I told myself this would happen, and yet even after prepping for the inevitable, I'm still pissed. The only way I will be okay with yet another gaping hole, is if this organization uses the LD money on one of the top FA's. They (Whis?) spoke of fewer but better FA a few weeks ago, and it better happen. Thomas, Briggs, Clements, Samuel. The better get one of these guys with the $11+ million they just saved on LD. 'nuff said.

They better get two of the, if not three, with the $40 million in cap money that the Cards are going to go into the offseason with.

 

[ActingWild]

I still maintain they could have received some compensation for David Boston--Jake was good riddance.

Letting Davis go is stupid, they better have an awesome super secret plan in mind to fill his spot. One that doesn't include garbage like Pettigout or Oliver Ross.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[ActingWild]

So, the problem people have with tagging him is that he may sign the tender and we'd be on the hook for 11 mill, yes? True, that is a risk. If he did that, we have more than enough cap room to pay him and still chase after anybody we want in FA. God doesn't have as much cap room as we do. We don't even have to start him; we can still try and find a replacement. It would be a lot of money for a backup, but I think if he signed the tender, we could definitely find a use for him.

That risk, though, is so minute as to be laughable. LD likely doesn't want to stay. We've heard grumblings that he'd like to go back to Texas, and I think both Dallas and Houston would love to have him. If they want to trade for him, they will not have to pay him 11 million a season; you can work out a sign-and-trade for a franchise player, where we get our compensation in the form of draft picks, and the other team gets to sign him to a brand new contract with an extension. I cannot think, for a minute, that if we and a franchised LD went to the Texans and offered him for even an expensive deal and extension, and a 3rd round pick, that it would be refused.

So, are some of you STILL thrilled with this move? Low-risk, high-reward. And if you don't have the balls to take a risk like that, you don't belong in an NFL front office.

AMEN! I had a lengthy post already formulating while reading this thread but you nailed it.