Spiderman has a heart problem??

[SECTION 11]

I dont know, seems K9 and S11 are calling him abust.

No I'm not, I'm just saying that 1) he wasn't the best fit for what we needed / had, and 2) he wasn't worth the #3 pick.

That's not the same as calling him a bust at all.

 

[Russ Smith]

Which really means what Russ?

I got no problems with comparisons per se but to say Fitz is a bust-as some have implied- ranks right up there with saying Plummer is the next Joe Montana.

Lets put it into perspective. Frankly, witht he way MCCown has played, I am not sure any WR would look good right now. If you arent his first read and you are even slightly covered he wont throw it....

True, but Roy Williams may have made Josh look better?
I don't think Fitz is a bust, but he's certainly not the best fit for this offense and never was, and Green said on draft day he was the PERFECT fit for us.

Unless that was another example of Green not watching enough film on us and not realizing how slow we were on offense?

The one thing we'll never know is how many of the teams trying to move up to grab Roy were only doing so because they knew we'd take Fitz?

Here's how good the Lions think Roy Williams is, Harrington has been sacked 9 times in 89 attempts this year, one every 10, after being sacked 17 times in 983 attempts his first 2 years or one every 58 attempts. So the argument that I've seen here before about how great his OL is doesn't hold water. One of the reasons he's been sacked more is the Lions(and they said this Sunday during the game) have asked him to stop throwing the ball away so quickly because he's missed plays downfield, and with Rogers and Williams around they wanted him to stop that. Rogers got hurt, but he's not throwing it away as often because he's giving those guys downfield time to make plays and Roy is the one making them.

Any way you slice it the better WR fit was a guy with speed, Fitz doesn't have it the way Roy does. Fitz has better hands, maybe much better, Roy dropped 2 balls sunday that i saw, but he is finding ways to get open downfield and Fitz isn't.

 

[Russ Smith]

How is Fitzgerald supposed to help McCown when McCown has 2-3 seconds to throw the ball which leads to him tucking the ball and running half the time? Fitzgerald has been open on some of those plays.

Williams may very well be the final piece in the Detroit offense that gets them cranking, much the way Moss was his rookie season. Obviously, Detroit's offense is much further along than the Card's offense. Fitzgerald is no where close to being a final piece. He's one piece of a work in progress.

Why? They have at least 2 new starters on their OL, a rookie RB, 3rd year QB, a rookie wr, a new WR(Tai Streets). The are in year 2 of Mooch's system I'll grant you that but the main difference is at QB and people were starting to call Harrington a bust last year.

 

[kerouac9]

Thats not the arguement I am trying to make though. There is no denying that RW has made more plays than Fitz. Of course he has! And he is playing out of his mind. But the impression I got from you was that you were saying Fitz is a bust, dosnt have the talent to be a great WR etc. Apparently I was wrong as you pointed out with your Lewis Alexander analogy! I get that and respect it.

I think however, after 3 games comparing either one of these two receivers to any other establised wr in the league-especiallty elite ones a la Moss, Owens-is way too premature.

Will RW be a good one? If he stays healthy he should be, but it isnt like Fitz doesnt have the exact same potential. I think Fitz has some of the best hands I have ever seen and his adjustment in the air to the ball is only surpassed by Moss IMO.

I know it is a tired excuse but realistically could we expect any WR to do anything in this offense right now? Some might argue that a good WR would elivate this offense-and I cant argue that, but more realistically imo, they would struggle (if you want to even call on pace for 75 catches and 800 yards struggling) as much as Fitz!

See, I disagree that Fitz and Williams share the same potential. I think that Williams has the potential to be as good as Owens or Moss. I think that Fitz has the potential to be as good as--as someone else already pointed out but I can't credit because I don't remember--Keyshawn Johnson. That's what I believed before the draft, and I haven't seen anything to convince me otherwise through the preseason and the first three weeks. Does that mean it's time to close the books on these guys? Of course not.

The excuse is tired. Look what Quan did in his first three games. Do I expect those numbers? Of course not. But Quan had done more to put his team in a position to win games in his first three starts than Larry Fitzgerald--who we were sold to as being a better prospect than Quan--has been. Roy Williams? He hasn't had the statistic production of Quan over his first three games, but I think the way that he's lifted his team has been similar.

Honestly, if Fitz matches Andre Johnson's contribution as a rookie (66 catches, 966 yards, 4 TDs), I'll probably be happy. At this point, after three games, I'd just like to see some flashes of what everyone else was so excited about in March. I haven't seen that yet.

 

[Russ Smith]

It is certainly understandable that those who wanted Williams would come out and proclaim victory after a mere 3 games for both players.

True, it's not like this time last year the board was full of people saying we should have taken Suggs?

 

[Mulli]

I wasn't trying to be an idiot mentioning Leaf and Manning. I am just curious as to what their numbers were. I can't look them up myself at work. Carry on.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

See, I disagree that Fitz and Williams share the same potential. I think that Williams has the potential to be as good as Owens or Moss. I think that Fitz has the potential to be as good as--as someone else already pointed out but I can't credit because I don't remember--Keyshawn Johnson. That's what I believed before the draft, and I haven't seen anything to convince me otherwise through the preseason and the first three weeks. Does that mean it's time to close the books on these guys? Of course not.

.

And see that is where you are wrong.

Outside of speed, what exactly does RW have that Fitzdoesnt? He certainly doesnt have better hands, he isnt a better blocker, he does have any more ability to 'get open' thatn does Fitz. Is RW a better fit for the team right now-possibly. Thats an arguemnt I wont touch as your probably right.

However, I can get a speed receiver anywhere. Why would I want to pass up a guy that has argueably the best hands in football for a guy that is what?-faster

I dunno, in the long run Fitz will be a better reciver and thats not even taking into account RW's injury history!>

Oh and btw, if you truly believe that Fitz=Keyshawn then we have nothign more to discuss!~

EDIT BTW I dont think the QB excuse is really allthat tired, b/c to me, right now, McCown pales in comparison to even Blake at this point.

 

[Zeno]

See, I disagree that Fitz and Williams share the same potential. I think that Williams has the potential to be as good as Owens or Moss. I think that Fitz has the potential to be as good as--as someone else already pointed out but I can't credit because I don't remember--Keyshawn Johnson.

Williams isn't a Moss or Owens clone(the closest to Owens I believe is Boldin), Moss doesn't have anyone who comes close to his ability and if he always had his head on straight he'd set all kinds of records. I think a more accurate comparison would be Roy Williams to Marvin Harrison and Larry Fitzgerald to Cris Carter or Tim Brown. Either way what is there to complain about? Remember the kid JUST TURNED 21 and has 3 NFL games under his belt.

 

[pete]

Why? They have at least 2 new starters on their OL, a rookie RB, 3rd year QB, a rookie wr, a new WR(Tai Streets). The are in year 2 of Mooch's system I'll grant you that but the main difference is at QB and people were starting to call Harrington a bust last year.

The main difference is at QB, and other areas of the offense, so it is kind of hard to compare the two WRs, no?

Given comparable QBs and offensive personnel, I'd take Fitzgerald over Williams. Why? The hands. The dude is going to be a freak in the red zone with those hands. As soon as our QB is able to throw it his way. That is the difference right now.

 

[kerouac9]

Outside of speed, what exactly does RW have that Fitzdoesnt? He certainly doesnt have better hands, he isnt a better blocker, he does have any more ability to 'get open' thatn does Fitz. Is RW a better fit for the team right now-possibly. Thats an arguemnt I wont touch as your probably right.

However, I can get a speed receiver anywhere. Why would I want to pass up a guy that has argueably the best hands in football for a guy that is what?-faster

I think that RW has the big-play potential that the great ones have, and the good ones lack. I can't believe that you're telling me, after seeing both guys play in three games, that you really think that Roy Williams and Larry Fitzgerald are comperable when it comes to the ability to get open. Roy Williams pretty obviously has more ability after the catch, which separates the men from those merely possessing X-Y Chromosomes.

Can you "get a speed reciever anywhere"? Scare one up for me right now. I don't see one on this roster, except for maybe Bryant Johnson, who isn't getting thrown to. On the other hand, I see four or five WRs on the roster who can probably do the exact same thing that Larry Fitzgerlad is doing. Honestly, I think that Larry's hands are being totally overrated here. C'mon, hands? Darrell Jackson and Koren Robinson dropped tons of balls last season, but their team made the playoffs. Why? Because they're big play threats.

If you've seen Roy Williams so far this season, I don't know how you can say that he's lacking in the hands department. If it's a choice between 85% hands and 95% speed (Williams) and 95% hands and 85% speed (Fitzgerald), I'd take the speed. You can't teach speed, but there are tons of ways to help with the hands.

 

[pete]

On the other hand, I see four or five WRs on the roster who can probably do the exact same thing that Larry Fitzgerlad is doing.

You honestly think Fitzgerald is no more talented than Poole, Williams, or Johnson? We must be watching a different team.

 

[Russ Smith]

If you've seen Roy Williams so far this season, I don't know how you can say that he's lacking in the hands department. If it's a choice between 85% hands and 95% speed (Williams) and 95% hands and 85% speed (Fitzgerald), I'd take the speed. You can't teach speed, but there are tons of ways to help with the hands.

Fitz DOES have better hands, per IWON.com Roy has 3 drops already, I saw 2 on Sunday. But as you say I'll take more drops for more big plays, Roy gets you that.

Now as for getting open, same site, which derives stats from Stats.inc, Larry Fitzgerald has been the target on 26 passes this year, and caught 14. Roy williams 29 times, and caught 15. So there doesn't seem to be a huge discrepancy there, frankly i expected the numbers to be different. The main difference is yards, neither one is ranked in the top 20 in YAC so I can't get their numbers from there.

There's absolutely no question that Fitz is being hurt by Josh's poor start, but Harrington wasn't exactly a big play QB his first 2 years either, Roy has a lot to do with how good he looks this year.

 

[Pariah]

can someone try to argue this point?

Uh, sure, Clif. Your point is "more chances to throw, more chances to catch," right? How's this for starters?

RW only has 3 more catches than LF, is your arguement that because RW has had more opportunity (to the tune of 3 receptions) that that's the difference between the two?

 

[Russ Smith]

Fitz DOES have better hands, per IWON.com Roy has 3 drops already, I saw 2 on Sunday. But as you say I'll take more drops for more big plays, Roy gets you that.

Now as for getting open, same site, which derives stats from Stats.inc, Larry Fitzgerald has been the target on 26 passes this year, and caught 14. Roy williams 29 times, and caught 15. r.

And of course now I see why. I had the numbers wrong on Roy, 17 out of 29 not 15. Still not dramatically different but not as close as my first post suggested.

 

[Pariah]

how can people try to compare Roy williams production to that of Fitz is beyond me.

The main thing that kills the arguement is that Roy is catching passes from a guy who is one of the most least sacked QB's in the league. More chances to throw...more chances to catch and score.

Also, the premise doesn't hold too much water, because Harrington only has 5 more passing attempts to is credit than does McCown. Just a little more than 1.5 attempts per game.

And, Harrington has been sacked 9 times to Josh's 12.

There's simply not enough to back up your premise, IMO.

 

[Russ Smith]

Uh, sure, Clif. Your point is "more chances to throw, more chances to catch," right? How's this for starters?

RW only has 3 more catches than LF, is your arguement that because RW has had more opportunity (to the tune of 3 receptions) that that's the difference between the two?

Roy has been the target of 3 more passes so there's the extra catches, and i guess the extra 4 td's came on those 3 passes?

The fact is Harrington is getting sacked at almost 6 times the rate he did his first 2 years. Now I think their OL is better than ours, for sure, but if you saw the game Sunday Harrington was running for his life the whole game, and Roy still found a way to go nuts.
harrington only threw for 199 yards, 135 of that was Roy, take Roy away and Harrington's next best target was Streets 3 catches 23 yards.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

I think that RW has the big-play potential that the great ones have, and the good ones lack. I can't believe that you're telling me, after seeing both guys play in three games, that you really think that Roy Williams and Larry Fitzgerald are comperable when it comes to the ability to get open. Roy Williams pretty obviously has more ability after the catch, which separates the men from those merely possessing X-Y Chromosomes.

Can you "get a speed reciever anywhere"? Scare one up for me right now. I don't see one on this roster, except for maybe Bryant Johnson, who isn't getting thrown to. On the other hand, I see four or five WRs on the roster who can probably do the exact same thing that Larry Fitzgerlad is doing. Honestly, I think that Larry's hands are being totally overrated here. C'mon, hands? Darrell Jackson and Koren Robinson dropped tons of balls last season, but their team made the playoffs. Why? Because they're big play threats.

If you've seen Roy Williams so far this season, I don't know how you can say that he's lacking in the hands department. If it's a choice between 85% hands and 95% speed (Williams) and 95% hands and 85% speed (Fitzgerald), I'd take the speed. You can't teach speed, but there are tons of ways to help with the hands.

Of the 12 Td catches Fitz had at Pitt his final year 8 of them were over 25 yards and 5 of them over 50 yards.

Of his 69 catches he had 21 of them over 20 yards, 14 over 35 yards, and 6 over 50yards

Nah he isnt big play at all. All he does is catch 5 yards hitches right?

Come on, you have it in your mind that Fitz is a Keyshawn clone and you couldnt be further from the truth!

I dont understand the 'ability to get open' comment. They have relativley the same number of catches....are you saying Fitz isnt open and thus is being thrown to less?

 

[clif]

Uh, sure, Clif. Your point is "more chances to throw, more chances to catch," right? How's this for starters?

RW only has 3 more catches than LF, is your arguement that because RW has had more opportunity (to the tune of 3 receptions) that that's the difference between the two?

coupled with a Qb who has been in the same system for at least a year and is one of the least sacked.. yes

I think you just made my point....RW has 3 more catches than LF. So he isnt making that much more of an impact.

Dont tell me ..well he has X number of touchdowns, Fitz would probably have some if 1) the cards called more aggressive plays in the redzone, and 2) Josh threw his the ball his way in the red zone.

 

[pete]

Roy has been the target of 3 more passes so there's the extra catches, and i guess the extra 4 td's came on those 3 passes?

The fact is Harrington is getting sacked at almost 6 times the rate he did his first 2 years. Now I think their OL is better than ours, for sure, but if you saw the game Sunday Harrington was running for his life the whole game, and Roy still found a way to go nuts.
harrington only threw for 199 yards, 135 of that was Roy, take Roy away and Harrington's next best target was Streets 3 catches 23 yards.

See, that is the difference. Harrington was throwing passes while McCown was dropping the ball on the turf. Harrington is producing with 6 TDs while McCown has 0. You put Fitzgerlad in the Detroit offense and I say he has 3-4 TDs right now too.

 

[Pariah]

coupled with a Qb who has been in the same system for at least a year and is one of the least sacked.. yes

I think you just made my point....RW has 3 more catches than LF. So he isnt making that much more of an impact.

Dont tell me ..well he has X number of touchdowns, Fitz would probably have some if 1) the cards called more aggressive plays in the redzone, and 2) Josh threw his the ball his way in the red zone.

First, you asked if anyone could argue the point that more opportunity to throw the ball=more impact for the rookie WR. That was done, successfully, twice.

Second, Harrington is one of the MOST sacked quarterbacks in the league this year. Check it out.

 

[C-MACK]

Here's what I have heard about Fitz's heart. When he was at the minicamps guys thought he was going to be a hard worker but that seemed to change in training camp after he signed his contract. Guys began resenting him. He ate lunch with the coaches and was seen at DG's side all the time. His dad would drive up to the field and hang out like he was part of the team. When he was practicing before and after the injury players thought he was going 3/4 speed unless he just isn't that fast. They were pissed that the coaches never did anything about it. After about a week of this the OC finally went off on him for loafing it but it has been a recurrent problem since then. People on this board talk about him like they know him saying he's a hard worker and great person. The fact is none of us know what kind of person he is and if he is a hard worker. We only have what we see on TV and what his college and pro coaches say about him.

 

[SECTION 11]

Doh!

 

[Russ Smith]

See, that is the difference. Harrington was throwing passes while McCown was dropping the ball on the turf. Harrington is producing with 6 TDs while McCown has 0. You put Fitzgerlad in the Detroit offense and I say he has 3-4 TDs right now too.

FOUR of those TD's went to Roy! You switch players I bet Roy has more than 0 TD's, and Fitz has less than 4. Comeon that argument is completely conjecture neither of us can prove that. We can only judge guys on what they HAVE done.

BTW Harrington has 2 picks and 1 lost fumble so Josh only has 2 more turnovers, that's not the explanation for the difference in the WR stats.

Switch teams I think Fitz' stats are better, Roy's are worse, but Roy's are still better than Fitz.

 

[clif]

First, you asked if anyone could argue the point that more opportunity to throw the ball=more impact for the rookie WR. That was done, successfully, twice.

Second, Harrington is one of the MOST sacked quarterbacks in the league this year. Check it out.

:notworthy that was funny .. nice pic.



but back to my point.... with the more experienced quarterback.... the better Oline... and being in the same offense (that being the QB) RW has caught 3 more passes than Fitz.

So the arguement that he is "obviously" better player has been shot to hell with ...dare I say... STATS!!!

 

[Pariah]

but back to my point.... with the more experienced quarterback.... the better Oline... and being in the same offense (that being the QB) RW has caught 3 more passes than Fitz.

So the arguement that he is "obviously" better player has been shot to hell with ...dare I say... STATS!!!

So, lemme get this straight, it's NOT that Harington has more opportunity to throw it? Like you dared people to challenge?