Spiderman has a heart problem??

[SECTION 11]

This is ridiculous. Right now there is no comparison between the two. Williams is winning the hypothetical matchup, hands down.

6 catches of 20+ yards, 16.3 average, 17 balls for 277 yards, 14 first downs and 4 TD's.

vs

1 catch over 20+ yards, 10.2 average, 14 balls for 143 yards, 8 first downs and zero TD's.


Excuses, excuses.

 

[CardLogic]

All of you have made this an interesting thread to read...

But the sum total of the argument is about the same as saying, "If a frog had wings it wouldn't bump it's ass!"

 

[clif]

So, lemme get this straight, it's NOT that Harington has more opportunity to throw it? Like you dared people to challenge?

I would say that is one part of it. I have not seen Lions games this year, but based on at least last year and the report on harrington, he has been known to either not get sacked due to pass protection, or throwing the ball away too much. someone argued that was something that he has not done as much this year.

Josh has a problem of nothing throw the ball away enough and that was evidenced by his last fumble on sunday. He also has not been looking downfield enough (as has been argued time in and time out)

My point originally was that there are more reasons to why RW has been more productive other than the notion that he is simply better than fitz. From most of the posts that I read here people just assume that since he has 4 td's and Fitz has none, it was automatically a bad pick and if the roles were reversed Fitz would automatically would not have similar numbers. How can that be proved?

 

[Pariah]

How can that be proved?

It can't. All we have to go on is what we know. We know RW is having a better year and more of a positive impact on his team than is Fitzgerald. Facts is facts.

 

[Russ Smith]

So, lemme get this straight, it's NOT that Harington has more opportunity to throw it? Like you dared people to challenge?

Well not if he doesn't consider yards per catch and touchdowns as important as sheer number of catches.

but of course if those numbers supported his case, he WOULD think they were more important.

Bottom line is points win games, one guy has 4 TD's, one has zero. Roy has taken up for grab balls in traffic and turned them into TD's.

If Harrington is such a great WR how come Tai Streets didn't do that? How come Rogers played 5 games with him last year and had 5YPC less and 1 less TD than Roy has put up in 3 games?

At some point you have to see that Roy is doing a lot of this by himself.

NOt picking on you Pariah I have clif on ignore so I only saw his post when you replied to it.

 

[SECTION 11]

Is there a source for number of coverage sacks?
That'd be interesting. Well, in a "Fitzgerald is overrated" kind of way at least.

 

[clif]

It can't. All we have to go on is what we know. We know RW is having a better year and more of a positive impact on his team than is Fitzgerald. Facts is facts.

which is certainly the case, but the arguement was that Fitz was a bad pick, because RW is better. I am saying that can't be proven either way so why make a stink about it?

 

[SECTION 11]

which is certainly the case, but the arguement was that Fitz was a bad pick, because RW is better. I am saying that can't be proven either way so why make a stink about it?

My argument is that Fitz was a bad pick because Steven Jackson was a better one.
The Williams issue is secondary to me.
The not-worth-#3-money issue is also secondary.

 

[Russ Smith]

It can't. All we have to go on is what we know. We know RW is having a better year and more of a positive impact on his team than is Fitzgerald. Facts is facts.

And Rogers on the same team in the same offense with the same QB last year had inferior numbers to Roy before he got hurt.

He had 2 Td's against us, 1 against the other 4 teams, in the same WR role Roy is playing now.

Too bad Rogers got hurt they really would have been something together, I hope he makes it back hate to see people like that get injured.

 

[spanky1]

Tough crowd. Fitzgerald has had three games and no pre-season. It's a little early to surmise who is better, between the two.......but Section 11 is correct.....based on the numbers, it's hard to dispute the facts. Personally, I'll wait until the end of the season before I cast my ROY ballot.

 

[SECTION 11]

If the "best player available" (steaming pile that that theory is, imo) is a wide receiver next April I will spare everyone and ban myself.

 

[clif]

My argument is that Fitz was a bad pick because Steven Jackson was a better one.
The Williams issue is secondary to me.
The not-worth-#3-money issue is also secondary.

It would seem that way now, but it wasn't then based on DG's offense. He wanted playmakers in the passing game, and Fitz offered that.

Stephen Jackson was and is a very good player, but in DG's offense he needed another home run hitter. Too bad he is hitting singles right now.

 

[SECTION 11]

It would seem that way now, but it wasn't then based on DG's offense. He wanted playmakers in the passing game, and Fitz offered that.

Stephen Jackson was and is a very good player, but in DG's offense he needed another home run hitter. Too bad he is hitting singles right now.

The home run hitter aspect was part of my argument for taking him.
Ran in a single-back set, caught 44 balls out of the backfield for 10.7 yards a pop, averaged 5 ypc behind a HORRIBLE o-line. And for 235 pounds, his 4.5 speed is awesome.

Oh well.

 

[Rivercard]

Rogers on the same team in the same offense with the same QB last year had inferior numbers to Roy before he got hurt.

Well, that's not really a fair comparison Russ as the Lions seem to be a much improved team this year.

This is a team sport and as such individual stats are usually misleading. Look at TO's production in Philly this year vs last year in SF - is he really that much of a better player this year than last? No, he just has a better cast of players around him hence his production goes up.

You guys are wasting a lot of energy on this thread - it's a little early to be jumping off the Fitz bandwagon. We've already seen that he can make the spectacular catch.

 

[Pariah]

, but in DG's offense he needed another home run hitter. Too bad he is hitting singles right now.

I thought the book on Fitz said that he wasn't a homerun hitter--that he caught everything you threw his way, but isn't going to outrun DB for long plays. He's Cris Carter--Carter wasn't a "homerun hitter" either.

 

[CardLogic]

Here's what I have heard about Fitz's heart. When he was at the minicamps guys thought he was going to be a hard worker but that seemed to change in training camp after he signed his contract. Guys began resenting him. He ate lunch with the coaches and was seen at DG's side all the time. His dad would drive up to the field and hang out like he was part of the team. When he was practicing before and after the injury players thought he was going 3/4 speed unless he just isn't that fast. They were pissed that the coaches never did anything about it. After about a week of this the OC finally went off on him for loafing it but it has been a recurrent problem since then. People on this board talk about him like they know him saying he's a hard worker and great person. The fact is none of us know what kind of person he is and if he is a hard worker. We only have what we see on TV and what his college and pro coaches say about him.

How are we to assume that this is reliable information?

Although I don't doubt the hanging with DG part.

 

[Russ Smith]

Tough crowd. Fitzgerald has had three games and no pre-season. It's a little early to surmise who is better, between the two.......but Section 11 is correct.....based on the numbers, it's hard to dispute the facts. Personally, I'll wait until the end of the season before I cast my ROY ballot.

Come on, if they NAME the award after you, your chances of winning it are pretty good.

My argument is simple, like the start of this thread I HOPE Fitz' ankle is the real issue holding him back, or Josh, and not just that he's not all that explosive.

 

[Russ Smith]

Well, that's not really a fair comparison Russ as the Lions seem to be a much improved team this year.

This is a team sport and as such individual stats are usually misleading. Look at TO's production in Philly this year vs last year in SF - is he really that much of a better player this year than last? No, he just has a better cast of players around him hence his production goes up.

You guys are wasting a lot of energy on this thread - it's a little early to be jumping off the Fitz bandwagon. We've already seen that he can make the spectacular catch.

But the reason they're improved on offense has a LOT to do with Roy Williams. Harrington is improved but take Roy away and his stats fall quickly. They spent money on their Ol but have allowed MORE sacks, and the great pick Kevin Jones put up 3.3 YPC before getting hurt.

Show me where Detroit is so much better than last year?

 

[clif]

The home run hitter aspect was part of my argument for taking him.
Ran in a single-back set, caught 44 balls out of the backfield for 10.7 yards a pop, averaged 5 ypc behind a HORRIBLE o-line. And for 235 pounds, his 4.5 speed is awesome.

Oh well.

Look I agree with you that Stephen Jackson is a great talent, and I would love for him to be in the backfield for the cards.

The thing that gets me is when people seem to want to keep looking back and saying what if. Passing judgement on players after 3 frickin games.

It is just so crazy that the season is so young and he is already being labeled a loafer.

That is the same thing that bugs me when people say that DG hasn't learned from his days in Minnesota... It is too early to pass such a judgement

same thing with Josh 6 NFL starts, and he doesn't have what it takes?

If the pattern persists then there would be no arguement from me.. it is just too early to tell on any of that stuff.

 

[Rivercard]

But the reason they're improved on offense has a LOT to do with Roy Williams. Harrington is improved but take Roy away and his stats fall quickly. They spent money on their Ol but have allowed MORE sacks, and the great pick Kevin Jones put up 3.3 YPC before getting hurt.

Show me where Detroit is so much better than last year?

Sorry - I'm not a Lions fan and I don't have time to research the reasons why they are a respectable 2-1 so far this year compared to last season's poor record. Yes Williams looks to be a solid player, but my point is there are many reasons why Williams could be doing better stat-wise than Rogers. Things like a) Harrington improving, b) Rogers being banged up last year, c) defenses might be keying more on the run this year because of Jones, d) the Lions have improved the oline (regardless of the sack increase) etc etc....

 

[Pariah]

It is just so crazy that the season is so young and he is already being labeled a loafer.

Nobody is labeling him as anything--you said it yourself, he still needs to prove himself. Look in the mirror, Clif, you should take your own advice and not induct him into the HOF, yet. He hasn't done squat yet. Will he? I hope so and I think so, but right now he hasn't.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Sorry - I'm not a Lions fan and I don't have time to research the reasons why they are a respectable 2-1 so far this year compared to last season's poor record. Yes Williams looks to be a solid player, but my point is there are many reasons why Williams could be doing better stat-wise than Rogers. Things like a) Harrington improving, b) Rogers being banged up last year, c) defenses might be keying more on the run this year because of Jones, d) the Lions have improved the oline (regardless of the sack increase) etc etc....

couldn't it alos be that Williams is just a stud and having an actual stud for Harrington to throw to has actually made their offense better? Sometimes the most obvious answer in the correct one. Have you guys seen some of the plays Williams has been making - and I'm not talking one great leaping catch the first play of the season (and don't get me wrong - I think Fitz will be very good -probably a downright stud next year) - I'm talking about great plays - one handed catches, taking an interception away from TWO defenders at the one yard line for a 25 yard TD or breaking 5 tackles for another long TD . . . I don't think a lot of you have seen Williams play - the guy is an absolute MONSTER so far. The only significant difference with the Lions on offense is Woody (at center - and their O-line is still bad - no running game, more sacks given up) and Williams . . . he some kind of factor - that much really can't be debated.

 

[clif]

Nobody is labeling him as anything--you said it yourself, he still needs to prove himself. Look in the mirror, Clif, you should take your own advice and not induct him into the HOF, yet. He hasn't done squat yet. Will he? I hope so and I think so, but right now he hasn't.

what? please show me where I said he was headed to the HOF or anywhere near that??

not being labeled a loafer? You might want to reread some early posts

 

[Rivercard]

couldn't it alos be that Williams is just a stud and having an actual stud for Harrington to throw to has actually made their offense better? Sometimes the most obvious answer in the correct one. Have you guys seen some of the plays Williams has been making - and I'm not talking one great leaping catch the first play of the season (and don't get me wrong - I think Fitz will be very good -probably a downright stud next year) - I'm talking about great plays - one handed catches, taking an interception away from TWO defenders at the one yard line for a 25 yard TD or breaking 5 tackles for another long TD . . . I don't think a lot of you have seen Williams play - the guy is an absolute MONSTER so far. The only significant difference with the Lions on offense is Woody (at center - and their O-line is still bad - no running game, more sacks given up) and Williams . . . he some kind of factor - that much really can't be debated.

Williams is definitely an impact guy. I was looking at Russ' posts more as a knock on Rogers than about Williams.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Williams is definitely an impact guy. I was looking at Russ' posts more as a knock on Rogers than about Williams.

my bad.