Starks?

[Redheart]

Originally posted by Ryanwb
Starks was a Pro Bowl CB at Baltimore, granted he had an outstanding supporting cast....but the talent in there.

Yes, that was the theory when we overpaid for him in FA.

The REALITY is that he as always been injured and we don't have the same quality supporting cast and he is on the two-year recovery cycle (IF he ever does) from an ACL.

If you want to pay BIG money to an injured CB, get Woodson in FA.

 

[Redheart]

Originally posted by Russ Smith

Torched is a bit harsh what I recall is a guy giving up a bunch of TD passes where he was just slightly out of position, he wasn't getting beat by 5-10 yards the way the other CB's on the roster do.

Torched may have been too strong. What is a better word when your #1 FA CB gives up a bunch of touch-downs.....hmmmm....how about BUST!

 

[pinnacle]

what would the cap ramifications be if we cut him...say during training camp 2004? just curious....not sure how much his original signing bonus was and what year of his deal he is in.

 

[kerouac9]

Originally posted by Redheart
Torched may have been too strong. What is a better word when your #1 FA CB gives up a bunch of touch-downs.....hmmmm....how about BUST!

Man, what do you have against this guy; he steal your girlfriend, or something?

Even adequate corners are hard to find in the NFL today, just ask the Carolinal Panthers. You don't cut guys that can play when you already have an embarassment of salary cap riches, especially when you're trying to recruit blue-chip free agents with the promise of winning.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by kerouac9
Man, what do you have against this guy; he steal your girlfriend, or something?

Even adequate corners are hard to find in the NFL today, just ask the Carolinal Panthers. You don't cut guys that can play when you already have an embarassment of salary cap riches, especially when you're trying to recruit blue-chip free agents with the promise of winning.

BINGO BINGO BINGO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I love reading these posts where people act as if corners grow on trees. 90% of the leagues' corners can't carry 90% of the leagues' receivers' jocks.

Having competent corners is difficult, let alone having two superstars (which isn't cost effective).

 

[Redheart]

Originally posted by kerouac9
Man, what do you have against this guy; he steal your girlfriend, or something?

LOL! I knew that was coming when I was going back over this thread and reading my posts!

Hey, if Aruthur can get bent over Clement I get to hammer on Starks!

I have been after Starks since training camp saying I wanted him cut then (BEFORE his ACL). Why? Anytime you pay a FA the money we paid him, I expect...no...DEMAND performance. To me, that is true for ANY big $ FA (and that includs Emmit). A high draft pick may be a gamble, but if you miss on a FA, cut him and put that money on another "performance record".

Considering pay and play; Starks has earned over $1 MILLION PER GAME!!!!! He has not performed and there are much better options for his money.

 

[Redheart]

Originally posted by Krangthebrain
BINGO BINGO BINGO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I love reading these posts where people act as if corners grow on trees. 90% of the leagues' corners can't carry 90% of the leagues' receivers' jocks.

Having competent corners is difficult, let alone having two superstars (which isn't cost effective).

That is too funny.

Tell me, what have you seen from Starks in his Cardinal carreer that you think he is competent (worth his #1 money)? Or even #2 money?

I love these posts where reality is divorced from opinion.

 

[LittleDavis]

If I remember correctly. We have only seen him play 2-3 games healthy and he was pretty good, even with no pass rush. He started his first season with a groin strain that hampered him most of the year. Corners are not going to be anything without a pass rush. That is the plain and simple truth. I worried that when we signed him that he would be expected to be a savior on defense. Never going to happen with a corner. A stud D-lineman or linebacker can standout, but not a corner. A good corner with a good front four and linebacking core is a luxury. I agree he is over-paid but I don't believe we built for him a good supporting cast. He was expected to do more than a corner ever can. Give him a strong line that can get to the QB within 3-4 secs. and he will excell, don't, and no corner will be successful. Not even Deion.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

c'mon guys, graves just has to go out and pluck a couple of shut-down cover corners off the shut-down cover corner tree! it's that easy.

when he played, even injured, starks was our best cb. even in run support. if we cut him now, we get no return on our investment. if we keep him through camp we can see what he's got to offer. those of you advocating letting him go are advocating starting the season with hill and rookie as our starting cbs 'cuz once barrett and starks are gone there is no guarantee that we'll attract replacements (see our cornucopia of dlineman signings last offseason - and we were just as desperate in that area then, then we'd be if we lost both barrett-who sucks-and starks).

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by Redheart
That is too funny.

Tell me, what have you seen from Starks in his Cardinal carreer that you think he is competent (worth his #1 money)? Or even #2 money?

He has done nothing due to injuries. But we would take a hefty cap hit just to cut the guy, but hey, don't let that affect your opinion!

Originally posted by Redheart
I love these posts where reality is divorced from opinion.

How many good corners do you think exist in this league? Not that many, and the ones that do, cost an arm and a leg (which is why we paid Starks so much). It's more effective to build your pass rush, and have solid to good corners.

Tampas corners would be subpar on this team, but due to a great pass rush, they are effective...

 

[Redheart]

Originally posted by Krangthebrain
He has done nothing due to injuries. But we would take a hefty cap hit just to cut the guy, but hey, don't let that affect your opinion!

How many good corners do you think exist in this league? Not that many, and the ones that do, cost an arm and a leg (which is why we paid Starks so much). It's more effective to build your pass rush, and have solid to good corners.

Tampas corners would be subpar on this team, but due to a great pass rush, they are effective...

So your opinion is that a cap-hit is worse that $3.6 million we paid THIS year for nothing? Starks was a BUST!!!! It happens, but it is time to move on.

I think there are about 5 better FA corners available this year than Starks and it would be worth every cent of the cap hit to actually see them perform in Cardinal Red rather than watch Starks sit nursing another injury adding nothing to the team.

Mac's problem (and apparently yours) was that he could not cut a loss. I bet Green won't have that problem.

 

[kerouac9]

Originally posted by Krangthebrain
Tampas corners would be subpar on this team, but due to a great pass rush, they are effective...

Tampa has bad corners, Indy has bad corners, Cincy has bad corners, Minny has bad corners...

...When you look at it, 80% OF THE TEAMS IN THE LEAGUE HAVE BELOW-AVERAGE STARTING CORNERBACKS. Like how on the NPR Radio show where all the kids are "above average", all the corners in the NFL are below average. There are MAYBE three corners IN THE ENTIRE NFL who can hang with Randy Moss or Terrell Owens for more than three seconds. We ask our corners to cover for five. No corner can have success under these conditions.

It's amazing teams bother to run at all on us.

But when you have guys that are LEGITIMATE STARTING CORNERS, you can't let them leave. I guarantee you that Reynoldo Hill cannot hold Duane Starks's jock, even after the ACL. Players know when a team is doing a player wrong, and they'd notice if the Cards cut Starks when he's coming off an injury. That's not going to help recruit the NEXT corner prospect.

When you look at it, Dre Bly got a larger contract for doing less his first four years with the Rams. That's going to be the standard contract for a MEDICORE free agent corner now. Think how much it's going to cost to get TWO GOOD ONES.

 

[LittleDavis]

Honestly...and I work in business...the worst thing a person in a position of authority can do, is talk alot without results. I don't think that Mac was a good evaluator of talent and I don't think that he was able to motivate his players to go above and beyond themselves. He let good players play good and he loved average players who played with that uncanny drive that looks and sounds great but does not produce in the clutch. He was believable with his mouth but was not believable with results. I liked him but in a position of authority it is usually the guys with a tougher approach that succeed. I watch my managers and the ones who are all friendly with workers and the workers love him but more often than not the workers output decreases because they can get away with it. Not that they don't want to produce but the true level of necessity for their job security is not there. Mac was nice with the no name calling thing but I'll be dammed if Clement and Davis did not appear unmotivated. Great players or players with great potential need that extra attention to bring them to that next level of greatness. I think they played average because they played to the level of those around them. Both of those guys should be pro-bowlers. Instead, it is guys like Kendall and Shelton(sometimes) that standout because they are dedicated and don't quit. Anyway, a ramble but I just don't think Mac was a true motivator. He talked big but his ship sank like the Titanic.

 

[Redheart]

Originally posted by kerouac9
Players know when a team is doing a player wrong, and they'd notice if the Cards cut Starks when he's coming off an injury. That's not going to help recruit the NEXT corner prospect.

This game is a business. Starks has banked over $11 million for 10 games. Just who has been wronged if they cut him???

Injuries happen in the NFL (Not For Long). That why Starks got his $5 million signing bonus.

If FA's want the next years salary, then they have to perform. This team is WAY overdue for demanding performance from it's big $ investments and cutting or benching those that don't perform.

Unless you like 4-12...toughen up.

 

[Redheart]

Originally posted by LittleDavis
Honestly...and I work in business...the worst thing a person in a position of authority can do, is talk alot without results. I don't think that Mac was a good evaluator of talent and I don't think that he was able to motivate his players to go above and beyond themselves. He let good players play good and he loved average players who played with that uncanny drive that looks and sounds great but does not produce in the clutch. He was believable with his mouth but was not believable with results. I liked him but in a position of authority it is usually the guys with a tougher approach that succeed. I watch my managers and the ones who are all friendly with workers and the workers love him but more often than not the workers output decreases because they can get away with it. Not that they don't want to produce but the true level of necessity for their job security is not there. Mac was nice with the no name calling thing but I'll be dammed if Clement and Davis did not appear unmotivated. Great players or players with great potential need that extra attention to bring them to that next level of greatness. I think they played average because they played to the level of those around them. Both of those guys should be pro-bowlers. Instead, it is guys like Kendall and Shelton(sometimes) that standout because they are dedicated and don't quit. Anyway, a ramble but I just don't think Mac was a true motivator. He talked big but his ship sank like the Titanic.

Wow. And I didn't even read this post yet before I responded to Kerouac9...

 

[BuckeyeCardinal]

Or

Originally posted by Ryanwb
Nice point....you put Champ Bailey with Terrence Newman with our DL and they look like a couple of Tito Pauls

Mrs. Paul.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by Redheart


Mac's problem (and apparently yours) was that he could not cut a loss. I bet Green won't have that problem.

You know, you really don't have to be a dick about this.

Cutting a loss is one thing, but depending on how much is leftover from Starks signing bonus, we might not save enough to even be able to sign a player worth a darn.

I find it quite amusing that you seem to think you know how Starks is doing healthwise. I don't, and I wouldn't claim to know. If he is fully healthy, there is no reason to cut him, but if the injury problems persist this spring, it will be worth it.

 

[lrk27]

The only reason to cut Starks would be if you thought his health was going to be a risk again. If you look at his numbers in the games that he played, he was on pace to be right where the Cards wanted him to be. Right around 3-5 INTs and would have set a career high in tackles. And he played most of those ten games banged up.

You could take the best shutdown corners in the league and put them with the Cards pass rush, and they will look like below average corners. If you give any NFL QB time to throw, someone will get open. In Baltimore, starks had arguably the best front seven of this generation, which made the secondary there look awesome.

If you want to cut Starks, it has to be because of his health and not because he didn't perform well enough when healthy. I saw him a month ago and he was walking OK and working out in Tempe. He did most of his rehab back in Florida, but was back out at practice for the last month of the season. An ACL injury should be completely ready for camp next year. His biggest flaw is fragility, and if he can stay healthy he is the best corner on the team. The Cards need that regardless of price. They have plenty of money.

 

[Shane]

Originally posted by Redheart
...or maybe they look like Aneas Williams and go to the pro-bowl.

The reality is you need quality CB's when the pass rush does not get to the QB, and that happens much more often than the reverse even for a team with a great pass rush.

Uhm you are talking out your butt with that statement. Aeneas when playing here almost always had a decent to above average pass rushing D-line in front of him!

A good pass rush makes CBs look good.

Show me an example of CBs who made there DL look good? Good luck!

 

[DieHardFromMO]

Duane Starks signed a 5-year deal for a total of $ 23 million including a signing bonus of $ 5 million. Annual salaries I believe are $ 3.6 million($3.6x5=$18million).

If you cut him after June 1, you would be able to charge $1.5million of remaining signing bonus this year and other $1.5 million the next.

Net effect is 2004 cap savings of $3.1million I believe.

Not advocating that Starks be released, just pointing out money that could be deployed elsewhere if Starks shows that the ACL injury has significantly affected his playing skills and not worthy of such a high dollar contract.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by DieHardFromMO
Duane Starks signed a 5-year deal for a total of $ 23 million including a signing bonus of $ 5 million. Annual salaries I believe are $ 3.6 million($3.6x5=$18million).

If you cut him after June 1, you would be able to charge $1.5million of remaining signing bonus this year and other $1.5 million the next.

Net effect is 2004 cap savings of $3.1million I believe.

Not advocating that Starks be released, just pointing out money that could be deployed elsewhere if Starks shows that the ACL injury has significantly affected his playing skills and not worthy of such a high dollar contract.

Depending on how it is structured still. What is his yearly salary (it changes ever year).

So if we cut him before June 1, it's a 3 million dollar cap hit this year....And after June it's what? 1 million?

That's not really saving much, especially if he can fully recover from his injury. It's worth keeping him around through camp. If he can stay injury-free and show that he hasn't lost much speed, he would be worth a roster spot.

 

[Goldfield]

Originally posted by kerouac9
If you ever expected Duane to be a solid #1 corner (and I think the Cards were), you were destined to be disappointed. Starks is an above-average #2 corner (maybe the best in the league), and a slightly below-average #1, especially in a division like ours, with a plethora of very, very good wideouts.

Did we overpay to get him? Duh. Does he no longer have any utility to the Cardinals franchise in this cornerback-starved league? Um, not at all.

Great post.

Starks is not a top notch CB. But he is above average by alot.

Is Starks overpaid? Yes. Has he been a big dissappointment? Yes.

Can he help us, and be our best CB? YES...


CB's are expensive and hard to get your hands on. I think we have to Give Starks a chance to get healthy(he didnt blow out his knee on purpose) and see if he can help us.

Starks & Jackson are deffinately ball hawks...

 

[Goldfield]

Originally posted by Redheart
At best, he is unproven? THAT is kind. He is a proven bust. Torched the one year (if you call 10 games a year) he played for us for $8 Million.

You really want to pay a #3 CB coming back from an ACL $3.6 million?

Too many talented FA CB's this year to even consider bringing Starks into camp again. Use his money to sign and bring in a couple of those.

I do agree we need to bring in one or two quality CB's.

But your stoned if your calling Starks a #3 CB in this league.


Nobody wants one of thier players to hurt a knee. But it isnt like Starks did it on purpose. We have to see if he can make a sucessfull rehab then descide if we need him. (chances are we will need him)

 

[Goldfield]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Sorry...

Originally posted by Krangthebrain
I disagree. I thought he was our best corner when healthy.

your right

 

[Goldfield]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sorry...

Originally posted by Ryanwb
He befuddled Boston a few days after he gave his, "I'll give any CB $100,000" speech.

Give the guy another chance...its not his fault he got injured

he did, I forgot about that... lol thx