Steve Keim - The 750K GM......

[binkar]

The report wasn't just wrong, it was way wrong. Somers said he's hearing Keim's salary is about $1.3 Million.

 

[MadCardDisease]

Happy that PFT was inaccurate, hopefully even with this reporting Keim is getting paid at the bottom of the barrell. I also hope he does well enough that he deserves and gets a sizzable raise from the Cardinals when his contract is up.

How often is PFT accurate? I can't stand that rumor mill.

 

[SunsTzu]

I believe in life, you get what you pay for. If you want to have someone build a house for you, you basically have two options. You can hire someone who does not have a ton of experience and pay less OR you can hire someone with a ton of experience and generally pay more. In the end, it is your choice. HOWEVER, you shouldn't be shocked when the one who was cheaper and had less experience builds a house that is inferior to the house built by the more experienced and more expensive builder. Yes, there is a chance you can get a better house for less money, but the greater odds state that you won't.

Paying Keim more doesn't make him any more experienced or any better a GM. Either you like the Keim hire or you don't his salary shouldn't change that.

As far as getting what you pay for any sports fan should know that's not the case.

 

[crisper57]

Keim just got done moving into his new office.

Steve: "Okay Mikey, I'm ready to get to work. When does McCoy get here?"

MB: "He took another job."

Steve: "No, that was Andy Reid."

MB: "And McCoy..."

Steve: "To who?"

MB: "The Chargers..."

Steve: "But I thought Whiz had the inside track for that job."

MB: "Yeah, about that. We need to re-examine the HC budget..."

Steve: "Well he got a second interview with the Eagles. Maybe..."

MB: "Chip Kelly took that job."

Steve: "You mean Brian Kelly?"

MB: "No. Chip. He changed his mind this morning."

Steve: "Well who is left?"

MB: "Ray, Haley, Gruden..."

Steve: ""

MB: "Let's call some more people in..."

 

[GuernseyCard]

Happy that PFT was inaccurate, hopefully even with this reporting Keim is getting paid at the bottom of the barrell. I also hope he does well enough that he deserves and gets a sizzable raise from the Cardinals when his contract is up.

According to one of the local scribes on Twitter it's actually $1.3M, same as Graves was paid.

 

[Redheart]

Keim just got done moving into his new office.

Steve: "Okay Mikey, I'm ready to get to work. When does McCoy get here?"

MB: "He took another job."

Steve: "No, that was Andy Reid."

MB: "And McCoy..."

Steve: "To who?"

MB: "The Chargers..."

Steve: "But I thought Whiz had the inside track for that job."

MB: "Yeah, about that. We need to re-examine the HC budget..."

Steve: "Well he got a second interview with the Eagles. Maybe..."

MB: "Chip Kelly took that job."

Steve: "You mean Brian Kelly?"

MB: "No. Chip. He changed his mind this morning."

Steve: "Well who is left?"

MB: "Ray, Haley, Gruden..."

Steve: ""

MB: "Let's call some more people in..."

Our "flight plan" is now a holding pattern.

 

[40yearfan]

My point was the Cardinals have been historically cheap when paying for coaches and staff, not with players and the salary cap.

As far as the coaching search goes, when you fail to have your staff in place so close to important offseason dates like the East/West game, Senior Bowl, Combine and start of free agency it should raise some concern. Especially when you continue to extend your coaching search due to the candidates who you have brought in to interview choosing to go to other organizations other than yours.

As far as about my wanting something to "bitch" about, I am a Cardinals fan, I don't have to look far. I am more than justified to being skeptical of the Cardinals replacing an inept GM in Rod Graves with a cheaper/inexperienced one FROM THE SAME STAFF in Steve Keim. The same staff that has not only made several draft blunders over the recent years but has also been inept in free agency. I am more than justified to being skeptical of the Cardinals trying to hire a new coach yet being passed on by two of the four candidates they have interviewed, and the in-house option being left hanging in the wind. Now they are bringing in more candidates because the options left from those they have interviewed leave them wanting more.

Do I post that my opinions are factual? No, like anyone not associated with the NFL, I take the info that I am privvy to and base my opinions off of that. If the info that is put out for public consumption is inaccurate, than most opinions posted on this board are also inaccurate. Deal with it.

Finally, you hinge your posts on the premise that things have changed with the Cardinals. My question is, have they really? We are still drafting in the top half of the draft. We are still having coaching turnover. We are still missing on high draft picks. We are still signing bad free agents to bad contracts. We are still hiring inexperienced coaches and front office men and expecting them outperform their more experienced peers. Your idea that 3 amazing years can somehow trump 60 years of ineptitude is mind blowing. I agree that it has appeared we have started to make changes, but those are only changes to get us on par with how the rest of the league works, not to set us ahead. You need to open your eyes because the two guy who took us to the top of the mountain (Whisenhunt & Warner) are gone, and we have yet to fill either of their shoes.

So quit looking at history and pay attention to the past 5 years. The Cards are spending as much money as any other NFL team. MB has done everything he can to shake the "same old Cards" image and truthfully, the only place I've seen it lately is by Cards fans on this board. And as I've said numerous times, bitch all you want about how the Cards have handled their coaches/players and I have no problem with it. Just don't lie about them being cheap. It is not a true statement.

For a staff that has been so inept, we have done some great drafting in the past few years. It has lead to us having one of the strongest defenses in the NFL. If we would have had any kind of offense at all, our defense would have been even better. No matter how much aggression you have, you will get worn down and perform poorly if the other side of your team continuously lets you down.

How do you know the Cards were passed by by the guys they wanted to interview? MB said this would be a long process and they weren't going to jump at the first prospect. I, for one am glad Reid didn't get hired here. I think his time has passed and his methods are no longer effective. Time will tell. McCoy was intriguing, but none of us know how he would fit in with Keim and Horton. An interview with the Cards may not have gone well and he wouldn't have been hired anyway. Since we don't have access to this process, all we have is pure conjecture from this boards fans. You choose to look at it in a negative manner and show little patience for the process. Some of us who have had much experience in hiring personnel know that a search of this magnitude should encompass interviewing as many people as possible and losing patience is the greatest sin in this process. This is a high profile job which deserves much scrutiny and discussion.

Instead of me dealing with your inaccuracies, why don't you just make sure a rumor is correct before reporting it as absolute fact. It'll save us both a log of aggravation.

Have things changed with the Cardinals? Yes they have. The description you gave minus your delving into history again could fit anyone of 20 NFL teams today. Only 12 teams make the playoffs and those teams are very often the same teams year after year. It is particulary hard to break into that group and stay there. If it was easy, every team would be doing it. That's the thing the darksiders refuse to acknowledge. The Cards are trying and making moves that most people will agree are good football moves. They are retaining their good players and making changes when things don't have a positive outcome. Until they hit the right combination, we are going to have years like this but I'll tell you one thing. Eventually MB is going to get it right and when he does, the sky is the limit.

 

[Chopper0080]

So quit looking at history and pay attention to the past 5 years. The Cards are spending as much money as any other NFL team. MB has done everything he can to shake the "same old Cards" image and truthfully, the only place I've seen it lately is by Cards fans on this board. And as I've said numerous times, bitch all you want about how the Cards have handled their coaches/players and I have no problem with it. Just don't lie about them being cheap. It is not a true statement.

For a staff that has been so inept, we have done some great drafting in the past few years. It has lead to us having one of the strongest defenses in the NFL. If we would have had any kind of offense at all, our defense would have been even better. No matter how much aggression you have, you will get worn down and perform poorly if the other side of your team continuously lets you down.

How do you know the Cards were passed by by the guys they wanted to interview? MB said this would be a long process and they weren't going to jump at the first prospect. I, for one am glad Reid didn't get hired here. I think his time has passed and his methods are no longer effective. Time will tell. McCoy was intriguing, but none of us know how he would fit in with Keim and Horton. An interview with the Cards may not have gone well and he wouldn't have been hired anyway. Since we don't have access to this process, all we have is pure conjecture from this boards fans. You choose to look at it in a negative manner and show little patience for the process. Some of us who have had much experience in hiring personnel know that a search of this magnitude should encompass interviewing as many people as possible and losing patience is the greatest sin in this process. This is a high profile job which deserves much scrutiny and discussion.

Instead of me dealing with your inaccuracies, why don't you just make sure a rumor is correct before reporting it as absolute fact. It'll save us both a log of aggravation.

Have things changed with the Cardinals? Yes they have. The description you gave minus your delving into history again could fit anyone of 20 NFL teams today. Only 12 teams make the playoffs and those teams are very often the same teams year after year. It is particulary hard to break into that group and stay there. If it was easy, every team would be doing it. That's the thing the darksiders refuse to acknowledge. The Cards are trying and making moves that most people will agree are good football moves. They are retaining their good players and making changes when things don't have a positive outcome. Until they hit the right combination, we are going to have years like this but I'll tell you one thing. Eventually MB is going to get it right and when he does, the sky is the limit.

I will counter 1 paragraph at a time.

1-The past 5 years we have been 37-43 with Kurt Warner as the QB for the only two years we had a winning season and one head coach that period of time. In the past three years we have been 18-30. So our record has been consistent with team history. As far as spending, again you are arguing a different point. I am commenting on the team's spending on coaches and front office personnel and you're commenting on their cap spending. Apples and oranges. Saying they have been cheap in regards to hiring coaches and front office personnel is justified. They continually hire front office personnel, head coaches, and coordinators with no experience (which are cheaper) and then are shocked when they don't work out.

2-In regards to our great drafting, how has it been great? Yes we have put together a great defense, but we have also put together a terrible offense. Any time you commit the key resources to a certain area, it is expected to have an impact. Where the Cardinals have failed recently and historically is using those resources to improve ALL units of the football team so we don't have one unit which is an anchor to the other.

3-How do I know the Cardinals were passed on by candidates? Because they weren't hired by the Cardinals is a good start. When multiple teams interview candidates (ie McCoy, Reid) and that candidate chooses a team, he has effectively passed on the other teams he has interviewed with unless they hired one of the other candidates they interviewed first. The Cardinals interviewed Horton, Reid, McCoy and Gruden. Reid and McCoy CHOSE to take other positions and the Cardinals are now interviewing other candidates because Horton and Gruden did not wow them. It is not conjecture, it is putting 2 and 2 together. When a girl dates three guys and chooses one to see long term, she has made a choice of one over the others. And it isn't about patience, it is about having a plan and executing it. So far the plan has been apprently to hire an offensive minded head coach, yet the top two have taken jobs elsewhere and we have now expanded our search to others with offensive backgrounds.

4-As far as rumors go and posting my feelings on them, if you don't like my time frame, feel free to not read my posts. That is your choice. If you want to say "lets hold on until this info is confirmed" I am gald to hear it. But when paid league insiders present information, it is common for people to believe it. If you don't want speculation or opinions based on the information that fans have access too, stop frequenting a message board buddy.

5-Things haven't changed. We have had two winning seasons in 5 years. That is bad. The key components to those seasons Whisenhunt and Warner are gone, that is bad. We have no future at QB. That is bad. We have bad contracts with terrible players in Kolb, Colledge, Snyder and Bradley. To argue that it is ok that we are as awful as the Jaguars, Raiders, Bills, Dolphins, Browns, Titans, Bucs, Rams, and Panthers is not ok with me. Those aren't teams who any Cardinals fan should want to be on parr with and it is sad that you feel it is ok.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

I will counter 1 paragraph at a time.

1-The past 5 years we have been 37-43 with Kurt Warner as the QB for the only two years we had a winning season and one head coach that period of time. In the past three years we have been 18-30. So our record has been consistent with team history. As far as spending, again you are arguing a different point. I am commenting on the team's spending on coaches and front office personnel and you're commenting on their cap spending. Apples and oranges. Saying they have been cheap in regards to hiring coaches and front office personnel is justified. They continually hire front office personnel, head coaches, and coordinators with no experience (which are cheaper) and then are shocked when they don't work out.

2-In regards to our great drafting, how has it been great? Yes we have put together a great defense, but we have also put together a terrible offense. Any time you commit the key resources to a certain area, it is expected to have an impact. Where the Cardinals have failed recently and historically is using those resources to improve ALL units of the football team so we don't have one unit which is an anchor to the other.

3-How do I know the Cardinals were passed on by candidates? Because they weren't hired by the Cardinals is a good start. When multiple teams interview candidates (ie McCoy, Reid) and that candidate chooses a team, he has effectively passed on the other teams he has interviewed with unless they hired one of the other candidates they interviewed first. The Cardinals interviewed Horton, Reid, McCoy and Gruden. Reid and McCoy CHOSE to take other positions and the Cardinals are now interviewing other candidates because Horton and Gruden did not wow them. It is not conjecture, it is putting 2 and 2 together. When a girl dates three guys and chooses one to see long term, she has made a choice of one over the others. And it isn't about patience, it is about having a plan and executing it. So far the plan has been apprently to hire an offensive minded head coach, yet the top two have taken jobs elsewhere and we have now expanded our search to others with offensive backgrounds.

4-As far as rumors go and posting my feelings on them, if you don't like my time frame, feel free to not read my posts. That is your choice. If you want to say "lets hold on until this info is confirmed" I am gald to hear it. But when paid league insiders present information, it is common for people to believe it. If you don't want speculation or opinions based on the information that fans have access too, stop frequenting a message board buddy.

5-Things haven't changed. We have had two winning seasons in 5 years. That is bad. The key components to those seasons Whisenhunt and Warner are gone, that is bad. We have no future at QB. That is bad. We have bad contracts with terrible players in Kolb, Colledge, Snyder and Bradley. To argue that it is ok that we are as awful as the Jaguars, Raiders, Bills, Dolphins, Browns, Titans, Bucs, Rams, and Panthers is not ok with me. Those aren't teams who any Cardinals fan should want to be on parr with and it is sad that you feel it is ok.

You're right but you'll never convince 40. His unwavering support of the organization is one of his charms. (I'd love to say one of many, but you know...)

 

[Hollywood]

I believe that 40's point was that the Bidwills always held that they couldn't afford to spend more on the team (notably coaches and front office types) without a new stadium. Since they have gotten the new stadium they have changed the way they have done business. YOU, however, seem to want to focus only on the negative.

So, focusing on the last 6-7 years....

My point was the Cardinals have been historically cheap when paying for coaches and staff, not with players and the salary cap. I believe that they payed Green very well and we all know about the 5.5m left on Whiz's contract.
As far as the coaching search goes, when you fail to have your staff in place so close to important offseason dates like the East/West game, Senior Bowl, Combine and start of free agency it should raise some concern. Especially when you continue to extend your coaching search due to the candidates who you have brought in to interview choosing to go to other organizations other than yours. This is actually wrong. No candidate that came to town has signed with another team.

As far as about my wanting something to "bitch" about, I am a Cardinals fan, I don't have to look far. I am more than justified to being skeptical of the Cardinals replacing an inept GM in Rod Graves with a cheaper/inexperienced one FROM THE SAME STAFF in Steve Keim. The same staff that has not only made several draft blunders over the recent years but has also been inept in free agency. Have you ever worked at a job where one of the senior management under performed? I have. I once had a boss that couldn't find his *** with both hands. Didn't mean that the staff was unqualified...just unlucky to have him as a boss. I am more than justified to being skeptical of the Cardinals trying to hire a new coach yet being passed on by two of the four candidates they have interviewed, Again, I don't believe this is true. and the in-house option being left hanging in the wind. Now they are bringing in more candidates because the options left from those they have interviewed leave them wanting more.

Do I post that my opinions are factual? No, like anyone not associated with the NFL, I take the info that I am privvy to and base my opinions off of that. If the info that is put out for public consumption is inaccurate, than most opinions posted on this board are also inaccurate. Deal with it.

Finally, you hinge your posts on the premise that things have changed with the Cardinals. My question is, have they really? We are still drafting in the top half of the draft. We are still having coaching turnover. This needs defination. Before Black Monday there were only 7 head coaches with a longer tenure than Whiz. Not among the 7 were Atlanta, Baltimore, Dallas, SF and Washington. Notably, the Cowboys have hired a new head coach about once every 3.5 years since Johnson left. We are still missing on high draft picks. So does every other team. We are still signing bad free agents to bad contracts. We are still hiring inexperienced coaches and front office men and expecting them outperform their more experienced peers. "inexperienced" head coaches (or they were when they were first hired) Bill Cowher, Mike Smith, John Harbaugh, Mike McCarthy, Sean Payton, Andy Reid and Mike Tomlin. The point is that every head coach is "inexperienced" before their first Head Coaching job. Notable that Belichick had experience before NE hired him. 36-44 in 5 years with the Browns. Your idea that 3 amazing years can somehow trump 60 years of ineptitude is mind blowing. I agree that it has appeared we have started to make changes, but those are only changes to get us on par with how the rest of the league works, not to set us ahead. You need to open your eyes because the two guy who took us to the top of the mountain (Whisenhunt & Warner) are gone, and we have yet to fill either of their shoes.

I believe in life, you get what you pay for. You prove the flaw in this below. If you want to have someone build a house for you, you basically have two options. You can hire someone who does not have a ton of experience and pay less OR you can hire someone with a ton of experience and generally pay more. In the end, it is your choice. HOWEVER, you shouldn't be shocked when the one who was cheaper and had less experience builds a house that is inferior to the house built by the more experienced and more expensive builder. Yes, there is a chance you can get a better house for less money, but the greater odds state that you won't. Apples and oranges, and I work in construction. Hiring a GM or coach isn't the same as contracting with a company. It is the difference between hiring a person and hiring a team.

I will counter 1 paragraph at a time.

1-The past 5 years we have been 37-43 with Kurt Warner as the QB for the only two years we had a winning season and one head coach that period of time. In the past three years we have been 18-30. So our record has been consistent with team history. As far as spending, again you are arguing a different point. I am commenting on the team's spending on coaches and front office personnel and you're commenting on their cap spending. See above. How have they compaired to other coaches and GM salaries around the league. Untill you do it is an unjustified comparison. Apples and oranges. Saying they have been cheap in regards to hiring coaches and front office personnel is justified. They continually hire front office personnel, head coaches, and coordinators with no experience see above. Many first time head coaches have success in the NFL. (which are cheaper) and then are shocked when they don't work out.

2-In regards to our great drafting, how has it been great? Yes we have put together a great defense, but we have also put together a terrible offense. I sort of agree with you here. We have drafted well and put together a good defense. However, the Cardinals haven't really drafted any offensive players that were a bust in the last few years. Any time you commit the key resources to a certain area, it is expected to have an impact. Where the Cardinals have failed recently and historically is using those resources to improve ALL units of the football team so we don't have one unit which is an anchor to the other. This is very true. I believe it was due to the belief that castoffs could be 'coached up' and that was obviously not the case and resulted in firings....as it should have.

3-How do I know the Cardinals were passed on by candidates? Because they weren't hired by the Cardinals is a good start. When multiple teams interview candidates (ie McCoy, Reid) Whoops, this is just flat out wrong. Everything after this is flawed as Reid only interviewed with one team, and it wasn't the Cardinals. KC was the first place to interview him and he signed there. Notably McCoy was interviewed by other teams but it was when the Broncos were still in the playoffs and couldn't offer him the job. The first place he visited he also signed. and that candidate chooses a team, he has effectively passed on the other teams he has interviewed with unless they hired one of the other candidates they interviewed first. The Cardinals interviewed Horton, Reid, McCoy and Gruden. Reid and McCoy CHOSE to take other positions and the Cardinals are now interviewing other candidates because Horton and Gruden did not wow them. It is not conjecture, it is putting 2 and 2 together. When a girl dates three guys and chooses one to see long term, she has made a choice of one over the others. And it isn't about patience, it is about having a plan and executing it. So far the plan has been apprently to hire an offensive minded head coach, yet the top two have taken jobs elsewhere and we have now expanded our search to others with offensive backgrounds.

4-As far as rumors go and posting my feelings on them, if you don't like my time frame, feel free to not read my posts. That is your choice. If you want to say "lets hold on until this info is confirmed" I am gald to hear it. But when paid league insiders present information, it is common for people to believe it. If you don't want speculation or opinions based on the information that fans have access too, stop frequenting a message board buddy.

5-Things haven't changed. We have had two winning seasons in 5 years. That is bad. The key components to those seasons Whisenhunt and Warner are gone, that is bad. We have no future at QB. That is bad. We have bad contracts with terrible players in Kolb, Colledge, Snyder and Bradley. Soooo...you don't always get what you pay for, do you. To argue that it is ok that we are as awful as the Jaguars, Raiders, Bills, Dolphins, Browns, Titans, Bucs, Rams, and Panthers is not ok with me. Those aren't teams who any Cardinals fan should want to be on parr with and it is sad that you feel it is ok.You are right. it is absolutely not ok. So what do you want the team to do. They fired the GM and coach. They were the ones putting the team together and game planning. When good teams realize that their coach is no longer effective they make a change and start over. Thats what happened. The team looks for the person best able to do the job. Thats what they have done.

40 and I prefer to look on the bright side. There is ample evidence to show that Michael Bidwill is running things and that he is willing to spend the money needed. Hiring Green, resigning Whiz and taking the chance on Kolb all show that.

While the o-line under performed last year it was also clobbered by injuries. It also gave Masse and Potter some playing time and they looked to have some up side to them. A line with Brown, Potter, Masse, Sendlein and Colledge has potential.

I am not sure Kolb and Skelton are lost causes. Kolb played well when healthy and Skelton played well last year and regressed under what was most likely poor coaching. (I am not saying they are great. I'm just saying that I don't know)

Fitz is Fitz and Roberts and Floyd are a great 2 & 3. While Wells is most likely a lost cause I am still holding out hope that Williams can stay healthy. Hyphen played much better than I gave him credit for at the end of the year and Powel looked ok.

Unless you just wanted to complain...then by all means go ahead. I'm just sayin' it doesn't have to be that way.

 

[john h]

Wow....The lowest paid GM in the NFL. Just another yes man in my opinion. Sad to think how much i bashed Rod Graves. You think the Cards were going to bring in a replacement for Levi and Bridges when they went down? how about entering a season with damaged RB's Wells/Williams? MB controls all of punches.

I'm pretty bummed out today. http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/images/icons/icon9.gif

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/01/15/with-mccoy-out-of-mix-cardinals-job-becomes-murky/

That is embarrassing. I suspect all Coordinators make more than that. If you are trying to hire the best GM you can what are the chances he will be the cheapest one? No doubt about it we have and apparently will always be known for being cheap. That being said how on earth did we pay the Eagles what we did for Kolb and pay Kolb's salary?

 

[Chopper0080]

I believe that 40's point was that the Bidwills always held that they couldn't afford to spend more on the team (notably coaches and front office types) without a new stadium. Since they have gotten the new stadium they have changed the way they have done business. YOU, however, seem to want to focus only on the negative.

So, focusing on the last 6-7 years....







40 and I prefer to look on the bright side. There is ample evidence to show that Michael Bidwill is running things and that he is willing to spend the money needed. Hiring Green, resigning Whiz and taking the chance on Kolb all show that.

While the o-line under performed last year it was also clobbered by injuries. It also gave Masse and Potter some playing time and they looked to have some up side to them. A line with Brown, Potter, Masse, Sendlein and Colledge has potential.

I am not sure Kolb and Skelton are lost causes. Kolb played well when healthy and Skelton played well last year and regressed under what was most likely poor coaching. (I am not saying they are great. I'm just saying that I don't know)

Fitz is Fitz and Roberts and Floyd are a great 2 & 3. While Wells is most likely a lost cause I am still holding out hope that Williams can stay healthy. Hyphen played much better than I gave him credit for at the end of the year and Powel looked ok.

Unless you just wanted to complain...then by all means go ahead. I'm just sayin' it doesn't have to be that way.

I pretty much disagree with everything you said. I appreciate your feedback, and I will state now, you can't change my mind. I think people who think the way you do are sticking their heads in the sand. You obviously think I can't see any of the positives that are out there.

As far as building houses and building teams, they aren't that different, you just choose to see them that way. They both start with a blueprint/idea, they both require someone to pay for the contractors and materials, they both require key people to make decisions and keep the process rolling along, and materials to build with. The more experience those key people have in the building process generally leads to a smoother and more accurate completion of the desired blueprint.

 

[40yearfan]

I will counter 1 paragraph at a time.

1-The past 5 years we have been 37-43 with Kurt Warner as the QB for the only two years we had a winning season and one head coach that period of time. In the past three years we have been 18-30. So our record has been consistent with team history. As far as spending, again you are arguing a different point. I am commenting on the team's spending on coaches and front office personnel and you're commenting on their cap spending. Apples and oranges. Saying they have been cheap in regards to hiring coaches and front office personnel is justified. They continually hire front office personnel, head coaches, and coordinators with no experience (which are cheaper) and then are shocked when they don't work out.

I don't know where you are getting you information from, but you are wrong. They are in the top 10 when it comes to spending on FO personnel. And I was talking about over-all spending, not just players. As I keep saying, you are about 10 years behind times.

2-In regards to our great drafting, how has it been great? Yes we have put together a great defense, but we have also put together a terrible offense. Any time you commit the key resources to a certain area, it is expected to have an impact. Where the Cardinals have failed recently and historically is using those resources to improve ALL units of the football team so we don't have one unit which is an anchor to the other.

And as I have said before, 20 other NFL teams have failed to make the play-offs after drafting and FA acquisations. If it was so easy to do, everyone would be doing it. Skill, educated guesses and pure unadulterated luck are all involved when trying to build a winner. The Cards didn't do so well in this area, but it wasn't because they didn't spend the money. They just guessed wrong.

3-How do I know the Cardinals were passed on by candidates? Because they weren't hired by the Cardinals is a good start. When multiple teams interview candidates (ie McCoy, Reid) and that candidate chooses a team, he has effectively passed on the other teams he has interviewed with unless they hired one of the other candidates they interviewed first. The Cardinals interviewed Horton, Reid, McCoy and Gruden. Reid and McCoy CHOSE to take other positions and the Cardinals are now interviewing other candidates because Horton and Gruden did not wow them. It is not conjecture, it is putting 2 and 2 together. When a girl dates three guys and chooses one to see long term, she has made a choice of one over the others. And it isn't about patience, it is about having a plan and executing it. So far the plan has been apprently to hire an offensive minded head coach, yet the top two have taken jobs elsewhere and we have now expanded our search to others with offensive backgrounds.

That is your opinion, not fact. If the Cards wanted to hire McCoy, they could have done it during the first interview. Apparently they weren't too impressed with his first interview as they could have hired him then. Reid never even stopped here as he knew he wouldn't get the lee-way he was demanding to have to be the HC. I don't think the Cards would have given him what he wanted, so they wouldn't have hired him under any circumstances. And even though you don't believe it to be so, the people left to be considered for a HC position are as good as, if not better than the ones who have already been hired.

4-As far as rumors go and posting my feelings on them, if you don't like my time frame, feel free to not read my posts. That is your choice. If you want to say "lets hold on until this info is confirmed" I am gald to hear it. But when paid league insiders present information, it is common for people to believe it. If you don't want speculation or opinions based on the information that fans have access too, stop frequenting a message board buddy.

Give me a break. You are the one spouting unconfirmed rumors as gospel truth. Those of us with a little experience know better to believe everything we hear. If you choose to be that gullibel, I can asure you that I won't be the only one on this board to call you out on it.

5-Things haven't changed. We have had two winning seasons in 5 years. That is bad. The key components to those seasons Whisenhunt and Warner are gone, that is bad. We have no future at QB. That is bad. We have bad contracts with terrible players in Kolb, Colledge, Snyder and Bradley. To argue that it is ok that we are as awful as the Jaguars, Raiders, Bills, Dolphins, Browns, Titans, Bucs, Rams, and Panthers is not ok with me. Those aren't teams who any Cardinals fan should want to be on parr with and it is sad that you feel it is ok.

As usual, you are wrong again. You have no idea what I think of the Cardinals, but you assume you know because I am willing to defend them against your mis-information. I'll repeat it for you again. The Cardinals are not cheap. They spend as much money as any other NFL team and that is a proven fact and it goes for the CAP as well as FO expenditures. That is the only thing I am arguing. You are the one throwing all this extraneous materials about how they perform to try and deflect from the fact that you are wrong. I know it's hard for you, but try staying on subject for a change.

 

[john h]

Not my money/not my problem.

It sort of is Jeff as you are a major Cards fan. Losing is a problem for me as it effects my mental health and money in any sport is connected to success.

 

[JeffGollin]

I nominate this for Most Verbose Thread in AZFN history.

 

[PDXChris]

That is embarrassing. I suspect all Coordinators make more than that. If you are trying to hire the best GM you can what are the chances he will be the cheapest one? No doubt about it we have and apparently will always be known for being cheap. That being said how on earth did we pay the Eagles what we did for Kolb and pay Kolb's salary?

Somewhere in this pissing match it was proven that the claim of Keim making 750k was false and he is in fact making 1.3 million, which 300k more than Graves.

 

[Chopper0080]

As usual, you are wrong again. You have no idea what I think of the Cardinals, but you assume you know because I am willing to defend them against your mis-information. I'll repeat it for you again. The Cardinals are not cheap. They spend as much money as any other NFL team and that is a proven fact and it goes for the CAP as well as FO expenditures. That is the only thing I am arguing. You are the one throwing all this extraneous materials about how they perform to try and deflect from the fact that you are wrong. I know it's hard for you, but try staying on subject for a change.

I love how you blast me for spouting "mis-information" yet you yourself have no proof that your assertions that the Cardinals "spend as much money as any other NFL team and that is a proven fact and it goes for the CAP as well as FO expenditures."

So please, either provide me with some sort of proof that we are spending the same amount of money on coaching and front office personnel or admit that you have no clue either.

At least my assumptions are based on the Cardinals hiring Joe Bugel, Buddy Ryan, Vince Tobin, Dave McGinnis, Dennis Green, and Ken Whisenhunt. Of these 6 head coaches hired since 1990, only Buddy Ryan and Dennis Green had ANY head coaching experience. So, as the Cardinals paid first time GM Steve Keim a lower wage because of his lack of GM experience, I feel safe to assume the Cardinals did the same with first time head coaches in Bugel, Tobin, McGinnis and Whisenhunt and will probably do the same in 2013 when we hire ANOTHER head coach with no head coaching experience. Only Whisenhunt got a raise which was AFTER two playoff seasons, but before that, we can assume he was paid the same as most first time NFL coaches which is along the lower range of the pay scale.

Same goes for our recent general manager history, since 1980 EVERY GM we have had from Larry Wilson to Buddy Ryan to Bob Ferguson to Rod Graves to Steve Keim has been hired with 0 GM experience. Again, I am going to assume they were paid accordingly.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I love how you blast me for spouting "mis-information" yet you yourself have no proof that your assertions that the Cardinals "spend as much money as any other NFL team and that is a proven fact and it goes for the CAP as well as FO expenditures."

So please, either provide me with some sort of proof that we are spending the same amount of money on coaching and front office personnel or admit that you have no clue either.

At least my assumptions are based on the Cardinals hiring Joe Bugel, Buddy Ryan, Vince Tobin, Dave McGinnis, Dennis Green, and Ken Whisenhunt. Of these 6 head coaches hired since 1990, only Buddy Ryan and Dennis Green had ANY head coaching experience. So, as the Cardinals paid first time GM Steve Keim a lower wage because of his lack of GM experience, I feel safe to assume the Cardinals did the same with first time head coaches in Bugel, Tobin, McGinnis and Whisenhunt and will probably do the same in 2013 when we hire ANOTHER head coach with no head coaching experience. Only Whisenhunt got a raise which was AFTER two playoff seasons, but before that, we can assume he was paid the same as most first time NFL coaches which is along the lower range of the pay scale.

Same goes for our recent general manager history, since 1980 EVERY GM we have had from Larry Wilson to Buddy Ryan to Bob Ferguson to Rod Graves to Steve Keim has been hired with 0 GM experience. Again, I am going to assume they were paid accordingly.

I thought Ferguson had GM experience with the Bills.

 

[Mulli]

So when did the Bidwills/Cardinals finally get willing to put escalator bells and whistles into contracts?

3 years ago?

 

[LoyaltyisaCurse]

I nominate this for Most Verbose Thread in AZFN history.

Especially since it would be the first post there in history!

 

[Chopper0080]

I thought Ferguson had GM experience with the Bills.

Director of Player Personnel

 

[john h]

The giant red cardinal takes center stage, clears his throat and sings out, "Cheap, Cheap".

I clearly have no idea if the Cards are really cheap or not. It may just be a rumor but it is a rumor that has survived the ages. There are some facts that might support it I think. There were years when we kept a lot of CAP money and did not spend it on players. Now I think the NFL requires owners to spend at least 90% of the team CAP on player salaries? Mr. B in the old days had some strange ways of doing contracts with players. From all I read he was not into renegotiating contracts or extending them before they were up. That may not be construed as cheap but was sure sort of dumb when it came to keeping players. We do not seem to be an attractive place for free agents which I would think has to do with money in one way or the other. After all, we have a great stadium and great weather. I think there is a correlation in one way or the other with a team success or failure over the long run with money. It may not be directly effected by the team payroll by money has long arms. Our record over the past 50 or more years has been horrible. Among the sports writers and announcers I have heard for years that the Cardinals were a cheap organization. Once again that is just rumor and I have no direct knowledge but I am left with the distinct impression that the Cards over the years have been a cheap organization. I would guess that this perception is out there among players and other people in the business.

In baseball you can prove statistically that the teams with the largest payrolls make it to the playoffs much more often. In the NFL with its CAP you cannot do this.

 

[40yearfan]

I love how you blast me for spouting "mis-information" yet you yourself have no proof that your assertions that the Cardinals "spend as much money as any other NFL team and that is a proven fact and it goes for the CAP as well as FO expenditures."

So please, either provide me with some sort of proof that we are spending the same amount of money on coaching and front office personnel or admit that you have no clue either.

At least my assumptions are based on the Cardinals hiring Joe Bugel, Buddy Ryan, Vince Tobin, Dave McGinnis, Dennis Green, and Ken Whisenhunt. Of these 6 head coaches hired since 1990, only Buddy Ryan and Dennis Green had ANY head coaching experience. So, as the Cardinals paid first time GM Steve Keim a lower wage because of his lack of GM experience, I feel safe to assume the Cardinals did the same with first time head coaches in Bugel, Tobin, McGinnis and Whisenhunt and will probably do the same in 2013 when we hire ANOTHER head coach with no head coaching experience. Only Whisenhunt got a raise which was AFTER two playoff seasons, but before that, we can assume he was paid the same as most first time NFL coaches which is along the lower range of the pay scale.

Same goes for our recent general manager history, since 1980 EVERY GM we have had from Larry Wilson to Buddy Ryan to Bob Ferguson to Rod Graves to Steve Keim has been hired with 0 GM experience. Again, I am going to assume they were paid accordingly.

So answer me this. How many people were available with head coaching experience when the Cards started to interview? There were 8 teams looking for a HC and only one of them hired a coach with previous HC experience. Your statement doesn't hold water. Same for the GM position. And where do you get Keim is being paid a lower wage. Have you not been reading this board about his $1.3 million dollar salary? I know you posted in that thread.

They made Whis one of the highest paid HC's in the NFL and Grimm was one of the highest paid assistant HC's. Most people thought our coaching staff was top notch and comparable to any other NFL team. It's obvious Grimm and Miller weren't as advertised, but the rest of the staff on both sides of the ball were good people. Whis was allowed to assemble his own staff and most of them came at a premium to get them to move from their existing teams. I'm sure you don't remember all the discussion on this board when Whis was putting his staff together, but the consensus at that time including a lot of football pundits was that the Cards were shelling out a lot of bucks to get the coaches they wanted.

I notice you are still living 10 years in the past. Until you get to the present day Cardinals, you will be under the wrong impression and unaware of the major changes this team has made. You give them no credit for keeping all their core players or upgrading their defense to one of the better in the NFL. This team is poised to make a leap this year if they can get the right HC. The pieces are in place. All it takes is the right leader.

 

[40yearfan]

I clearly have no idea if the Cards are really cheap or not. It may just be a rumor but it is a rumor that has survived the ages. There are some facts that might support it I think. There were years when we kept a lot of CAP money and did not spend it on players. Now I think the NFL requires owners to spend at least 90% of the team CAP on player salaries? Mr. B in the old days had some strange ways of doing contracts with players. From all I read he was not into renegotiating contracts or extending them before they were up. That may not be construed as cheap but was sure sort of dumb when it came to keeping players. We do not seem to be an attractive place for free agents which I would think has to do with money in one way or the other. After all, we have a great stadium and great weather. I think there is a correlation in one way or the other with a team success or failure over the long run with money. It may not be directly effected by the team payroll by money has long arms. Our record over the past 50 or more years has been horrible. Among the sports writers and announcers I have heard for years that the Cardinals were a cheap organization. Once again that is just rumor and I have no direct knowledge but I am left with the distinct impression that the Cards over the years have been a cheap organization. I would guess that this perception is out there among players and other people in the business.

In baseball you can prove statistically that the teams with the largest payrolls make it to the playoffs much more often. In the NFL with its CAP you cannot do this.

John, just look at the last 5 years. Forget past history. Do you remember the spring of 2011 when the Cards had all the FA's with hardly anyone under contract and people on this board were going nuts? With-in a week, the Cards had 51 players under contract and had gone out and gotten Kolb for a large sum of money. Would the same old Cards have done that? Absolutely not. Even Cheese grudlingly gave them credit. These guys are really trying. They don't have the right formula just yet, but they are a lot closer than they were when they really changed their method of operation.

 

[40yearfan]

So when did the Bidwills/Cardinals finally get willing to put escalator bells and whistles into contracts?

3 years ago?

Some time during the DG era.