Summer League 2014

[Mainstreet]

If that is the case, wouldn't it make sense to not sign Bledsoe, start Green at Shooting Guard and move Goodwin into the rotation as his backup until he is ready to move up to the starting spot? And sign a strong backup for Dragic at Point Guard.

The alternative is trading Green and moving Goodwin into the backup 2-Guard role, but with Bledsoe's injury history, Goodwin isn't ready for that.

One could build a case for doing a sign and trade with Bledsoe but regardless, the Suns could hugely benefit by drafting the best PG available in a PG rich draft.

 

[BC867]

One could build a case for doing a sign and trade with Bledsoe but regardless, the Suns could hugely benefit by drafting the best PG available in a PG rich draft.

We need a rebounding PF before a backup Point Guard. That should be our first priority.

 

[AzStevenCal]

We need a rebounding PF before a backup Point Guard. That should be our first priority.

Especially if we're not bringing Tucker back.

Steve

 

[Superbone]

I just don't like the idea of drafting for need versus drafting the best player available. We might miss out on some really good prospects. Sure, if it's a close call, take the PF.

 

[BC867]

I just don't like the idea of drafting for need versus drafting the best player available. We might miss out on some really good prospects. Sure, if it's a close call, take the PF.

I respect your opinion but, for the most part, the Suns throughout their history have fielded the five best players vs. covering each position.

It makes for a pretty team. Not a contender.

Really good prospects don't make up for a strong, consistent rebounder, especially on a team that uses the fast break.

 

[SirStefan32]

The problem is that rebounding PFs don't grow on trees. Jarnell Stokes is about the closest thing to a rebounding PF that the Suns will be able to get in this draft, unless they somehow manage to move up, and even he is really a 6'8 Center. Give us a name of a rebounding PF you want the Suns to draft, BC.

You have to draft the best player available. Look for a PF via trades and free agency.

 

[AzStevenCal]

The problem is that rebounding PFs don't grow on trees. Jarnell Stokes is about the closest thing to a rebounding PF that the Suns will be able to get in this draft, unless they somehow manage to move up, and even he is really a 6'8 Center. Give us a name of a rebounding PF you want the Suns to draft, BC.

You have to draft the best player available. Look for a PF via trades and free agency.

I think Adreian Payne is our most likely target.

Steve

 

[Superbone]

The problem is that rebounding PFs don't grow on trees. Jarnell Stokes is about the closest thing to a rebounding PF that the Suns will be able to get in this draft, unless they somehow manage to move up, and even he is really a 6'8 Center. Give us a name of a rebounding PF you want the Suns to draft, BC.

You have to draft the best player available. Look for a PF via trades and free agency.

I don't know anything about Stokes or Payne but this take is spot on.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I just don't like the idea of drafting for need versus drafting the best player available. We might miss out on some really good prospects. Sure, if it's a close call, take the PF.

Unless the difference is stark, you draft the player you can actually develop. I differ from conventional wisdom in this.

 

[Joe Mama]

We need a rebounding PF before a backup Point Guard. That should be our first priority.

I would love to get better rebounding and defense (especially on the pick and roll) from our power forwards, but I really think people are selling short how important it is that our current guys spread the floor. I'm telling you if we replace Channing Frye with a player who averages even 5 more rebounds per game but can't consistently hit a midrange jump shot, much less a three-point shot, everybody will be wondering what happened to our offense. And as SirStefan pointed out these guys who can spread the floor and defend/rebound well do not grow on trees.

Unless we can land somebody like Kevin Love I'm all for re-signing Channing Frye if he opts out of his contract. I'm not nearly ready to give up on Channing Frye and I hope the Phoenix Suns aren't either. I'm thinking he's going to be better next season. I would like to think that at least part of the reason he slumped in the second half was that he just wore out after missing the entire 2012-13 season. In my opinion his return and Morris's improvement were as important as acquiring Bledsoe, Green, and Plumlee to the success of last year's team.

The last thing we want to do is sign Eric Bledsoe to a huge contract and then play him with a power forward and center who invite the defense to crowd the paint.

I'm not entirely sold on Kevin Love at $20 million/season, but at least I wouldn't have to worry about the spacing on offense if he was acquired.

With the lack of size in this draft I'm really surprised that Payne is being projected 15-20 by the various media outlets. He has legitimate power forward size to go where a nice inside/outside game on offense. If the Phoenix Suns were sold on his motor I'd be happy with him with our own lottery pick. I don't see any numbers for him for the athletic testing at the combine. That makes me a little suspicious unless he had an injury. Still, I suspect he'll start moving up these draft boards.

Btw this is one of the reasons I loved Dieng in last year's draft. He has great size and athleticism and in last year's tournament was killing teams around and above the free-throw line with his jump shot. I predict he's going to have a big year for Minnesota in 2014-15.

That's my rant for the day,
Joe

 

[AzStevenCal]

I don't know anything about Stokes or Payne but this take is spot on.

I know you weren't really asking but Payne strikes me as a blend of Channing Frye and Serge Ibaka. Stokes is a possibility with our 27th pick or maybe if we add an early second rounder. He's a bit like PJ Tucker was when he came out, except he's two inches taller. He has great length but at 6'7 he's going to struggle getting his shot off down low and he lacks the lateral quickness to guard in space. Payne is a decent rebounder, Stokes is a beast on the boards. But Adreian is the far better prospect IMO especially with our point guards.

Steve

 

[AzStevenCal]

I would love to get better rebounding and defense (especially on the pick and roll) from our power forwards, but I really think people are selling short how important it is that our current guys spread the floor. I'm telling you if we replace Channing Frye with a player who averages even 5 more rebounds per game but can't consistently hit a midrange jump shot, much less a three-point shot, everybody will be wondering what happened to our offense. And as SirStefan pointed out these guys who can spread the floor and defend/rebound well do not grow on trees.

Unless we can land somebody like Kevin Love I'm all for re-signing Channing Frye if he opts out of his contract. I'm not nearly ready to give up on Channing Frye and I hope the Phoenix Suns aren't either. I'm thinking he's going to be better next season. I would like to think that at least part of the reason he slumped in the second half was that he just wore out after missing the entire 2012-13 season. In my opinion his return and Morris's improvement were as important as acquiring Bledsoe, Green, and Plumlee to the success of last year's team.

The last thing we want to do is sign Eric Bledsoe to a huge contract and then play him with a power forward and center who invite the defense to crowd the paint.

I'm not entirely sold on Kevin Love at $20 million/season, but at least I wouldn't have to worry about the spacing on offense if he was acquired.

With the lack of size in this draft I'm really surprised that Payne is being projected 15-20 by the various media outlets. He has legitimate power forward size to go where a nice inside/outside game on offense. If the Phoenix Suns were sold on his motor I'd be happy with him with our own lottery pick. I don't see any numbers for him for the athletic testing at the combine. That makes me a little suspicious unless he had an injury. Still, I suspect he'll start moving up these draft boards.

Btw this is one of the reasons I loved Dieng in last year's draft. He has great size and athleticism and in last year's tournament was killing teams around and above the free-throw line with his jump shot. I predict he's going to have a big year for Minnesota in 2014-15.

That's my rant for the day,
Joe

Payne was coming off a mis-diagnosed bout with mono that took him out of his game late in the season and out of most of the offseason stuff.

Steve

 

[elindholm]

I'm telling you if we replace Channing Frye with a player who averages even 5 more rebounds per game but can't consistently hit a midrange jump shot, much less a three-point shot, everybody will be wondering what happened to our offense.

Man, I can't go along with that. Dragic (.408), Green (.400), Tucker (.387), and Marcus Morris (.380) all shot threes better than Frye (.370) did last year, and Bledsoe (.357) wasn't too far behind. Sure, Frye took and made more than most of those guys, but that's because most nights it was his only way of contributing to the offense. I'm a Frye supporter, relatively speaking, and I think he sometimes rises to the level of mediocre defense, but most of the time he's just giving up too much on both ends of the floor.

I just don't see how the offense can be that reliant on a PF who never commands a double team, can't create his own shot, and never leaves the defense guessing as to what he's trying to do. The team has enough stand-still shooters; what it needs is more players who can put different kinds of pressure on the other team's defense.

 

[Mainstreet]

I just don't like the idea of drafting for need versus drafting the best player available. We might miss out on some really good prospects. Sure, if it's a close call, take the PF.

Drafting for need is where teams blow it in the draft. We agree BPA is the way to go. However, I wouldn't mind drafting an international PF at a later pick and leaving him in Europe to develop.

 

[Mainstreet]

In regard to Channing Frye if he opts out, let him go. Signing Spencer Hawes for the money would be a better option if the Suns want to go that direction. I'm not saying they should but I'd rather have him than Frye.

 

[Superbone]

I know you weren't really asking but Payne strikes me as a blend of Channing Frye and Serge Ibaka. Stokes is a possibility with our 27th pick or maybe if we add an early second rounder. He's a bit like PJ Tucker was when he came out, except he's two inches taller. He has great length but at 6'7 he's going to struggle getting his shot off down low and he lacks the lateral quickness to guard in space. Payne is a decent rebounder, Stokes is a beast on the boards. But Adreian is the far better prospect IMO especially with our point guards.

Steve

Well, after that description, sign me up for Payne. <insert jokes here>

 

[Superbone]

In regard to Channing Frye if he opts out, let him go. Signing Spencer Hawes for the money would be a better option if the Suns want to go that direction. I'm not saying they should but I'd rather have him than Frye.

I hear this a lot but I don't see Hawes as being a much better option than Frye. I think it's a lateral move at best.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I hear this a lot but I don't see Hawes as being a much better option than Frye. I think it's a lateral move at best.

I was very disappointed in Channing the last couple of months of the season but he's an acknowledged team leader and a very positive influence in the locker room. I don't know much about Hawes but teams seem pretty willing to get rid of him on the cheap. He's a young big man (he's only 26 even now) with a lot of skills and Philly just gave him away. In fact, it looks like they paid a premium for that opportunity.

Frye was moved pretty quickly early in his career too and he's shown us repeatedly just why New York and Portland gave up on him. I know that through the years I've heard much of the same complaints about both of them: inconsistent, physically soft, weak rebounder, no inside game, little to no rim protection, mentally soft and so on. I'm just not sure Hawes is an upgrade and we already know that Channing is a plus on the chemistry side. Better the devil we know IMO.

Steve

 

[Mainstreet]

I hear this a lot but I don't see Hawes as being a much better option than Frye. I think it's a lateral move at best.

Hawes is age 26, Frye is age 31. I believe Hawes still has upside. Also Hawes is a better and more consistent 3 point shooter. He is slightly a better rebounder as well. I'm not sure how they stack up defensively. Frye is considered a PF and Hawes is center but this does not bother me. Len is still a question mark at center and Plumlee may be able to play PF if he develops a mid-range shot. Here are some links to their stats.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hawessp01.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/f/fryech01.html

 

[Mainstreet]

I was very disappointed in Channing the last couple of months of the season but he's an acknowledged team leader and a very positive influence in the locker room. I don't know much about Hawes but teams seem pretty willing to get rid of him on the cheap. He's a young big man (he's only 26 even now) with a lot of skills and Philly just gave him away. In fact, it looks like they paid a premium for that opportunity.

Frye was moved pretty quickly early in his career too and he's shown us repeatedly just why New York and Portland gave up on him. I know that through the years I've heard much of the same complaints about both of them: inconsistent, physically soft, weak rebounder, no inside game, little to no rim protection, mentally soft and so on. I'm just not sure Hawes is an upgrade and we already know that Channing is a plus on the chemistry side. Better the devil we know IMO.

Steve

I've seen what Frye can do and not do already. I'm ready to go a new direction. I'm just saying I would prefer Hawes over Frye if the Suns want a three point shooter to stretch the floor. I don't think one needs to worry about the Suns signing Hawes because I think he will command a much better contract. If the Suns give Frye a large contract (4M a year or up) I will choke.

 

[Joe Mama]

Man, I can't go along with that. Dragic (.408), Green (.400), Tucker (.387), and Marcus Morris (.380) all shot threes better than Frye (.370) did last year, and Bledsoe (.357) wasn't too far behind. Sure, Frye took and made more than most of those guys, but that's because most nights it was his only way of contributing to the offense. I'm a Frye supporter, relatively speaking, and I think he sometimes rises to the level of mediocre defense, but most of the time he's just giving up too much on both ends of the floor.

I just don't see how the offense can be that reliant on a PF who never commands a double team, can't create his own shot, and never leaves the defense guessing as to what he's trying to do. The team has enough stand-still shooters; what it needs is more players who can put different kinds of pressure on the other team's defense.

yeah, but my point was that having at least either your power forward or center able to drag his defender away from the basket is incredibly valuable. Those other players you listed play 1-3. And that was Channing Frye's three-point percentage for the entire season. In November, December, and January he shot 42% from behind the line. Spot up shooting accounted for about 33% of his, but the next 33% of his offense was from pick and roll and post up where he was very good. You wouldn't want to go posting up Channing Frye against every opposing power forward, especially the strong defenders, but he's good when he does it. I'd like to see him post up more when opponents try to guard him with a smaller player. He's very, very good at shooting a turnaround jump shot over them.

Even with his second-half slump Channing Frye was just behind Goran Dragic and Gerald Green in PPP for the season. Like I said, I agree we could improve the defense and get a few more rebounds out of the power positions by replacing Channing Frye. He's an average defender for the most part and he only grabs something like 7 rebounds per 36. I'm just saying you stick an average shooter there alongside Plumlee and it's going to have a real negative effect on the Phoenix Suns offense.

I mean if we don't get somebody like Kevin Love who does everybody want to replace Channing Frye with this upcoming season?

Joe

 

[SirStefan32]

I know you weren't really asking but Payne strikes me as a blend of Channing Frye and Serge Ibaka. Stokes is a possibility with our 27th pick or maybe if we add an early second rounder. He's a bit like PJ Tucker was when he came out, except he's two inches taller. He has great length but at 6'7 he's going to struggle getting his shot off down low and he lacks the lateral quickness to guard in space. Payne is a decent rebounder, Stokes is a beast on the boards. But Adreian is the far better prospect IMO especially with our point guards.

Steve

Stokes is DeJuan Blair. Nothing fancy, way undersized, but can rebound and even score in the low post. Not a bad defender in college, but I do not know if he'll be able to guard taller Centers or quicker PFs in the NBA.

Payne doesn't do anything extremely well, but he is OK at everything (rebounding, low post game, jumpers, defense.) Payne could very well be a slightly better/ versatile/ physical Channing Frye.

I'd probably go with Payne, as he has a much higher ceiling, but Stokes is a safe pick if you are looking for a good, solid back-up big man who can give you 6 and 6 in 15-20 minutes.

 

[SirStefan32]

I mean if we don't get somebody like Kevin Love who does everybody want to replace Channing Frye with this upcoming season?

Joe

Worst case scenario- Markieff Morris, still much better than Frye. Frye's three point shooting and this "ability to spread the floor" is incredibly overrated. Suns could get rid of Frye tomorrow and nobody would miss him next year.

Parker, Ginobilli, and the rest of the Spurs drive to the hoop just fine even when non-shooters are playing the 4 spot for the Spurs. Bledoe and Dragic will be just fine without Frye at the three point line, much like parker and Manu are fine without Matt Bonner at the 3 point line.

 

[BC867]

Worst case scenario- Markieff Morris, still much better than Frye. Frye's three point shooting and this "ability to spread the floor" is incredibly overrated. Suns could get rid of Frye tomorrow and nobody would miss him next year.

Parker, Ginobilli, and the rest of the Spurs drive to the hoop just fine even when non-shooters are playing the 4 spot for the Spurs. Bledoe and Dragic will be just fine without Frye at the three point line, much like parker and Manu are fine without Matt Bonner at the 3 point line.

Time is a factor, as well. We've read that teams are adjusting to Frye camping at the 3-point line on offense and keeping their Power Forward or Center down low to rebound and block shots.

Even if the novelty of Frye worked in the past (though not the past half season), the novelty has worn off, leaving the Suns without two big men to match up with other teams, reducing the effectiveness of our remaining big man as an all-around player.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Time is a factor, as well. We've read that teams are adjusting to Frye camping at the 3-point line on offense and keeping their Power Forward or Center down low to rebound and block shots.

Even if the novelty of Frye worked in the past (though not the past half season), the novelty has worn off, leaving the Suns without two big men to match up with other teams, reducing the effectiveness of our remaining big man as an all-around player.

It's not a novelty and it hasn't worn off. Other than the Lakers, I can't think of another team that didn't continue to guard Frye at the 3 point line. A couple of teams guarded him with a smaller player but this idea that they ignored him for a half season is a new one on me. And if you look at the various lineup stats, Frye continued to be central to our victories even once his shot disappeared. More often than not, this team played better when he was on the court. He cost us wins when he wasn't playing well but the team played even worse when he was on the bench.

Steve