Suns @ Clippers Tuesday game thread 12-17-19

[TJ]

Not sure why everyone is so up in arms. The Suns have played literally ONE game this season at full strength with the full complement of their roster, and they are still only one game out of the final playoff spot in the West. Let's wait for them to play a full few weeks with a healthy roster - or even with at least their best players available at full health - before getting all worked up. I will be surprised if we aren't at least winning at a 55% clip with Booker, Ayton, Oubre, Rubio, Baynes, and most of the bench guys fully operational.

We aren't going to put up 60 wins, of course - but the mid 40s or even 50 aren't out of reach by any means. That would be a pretty good season considering where we have been recently.

Of course, if we continue to be plagued by bad luck with injuries and other distractions, then all bets are off. But there is little or nothing anyone can do about bad luck.

Think we can get to 40 wins, but everyone has to get healthy.

 

[BC867]

Of course, if we continue to be plagued by bad luck with injuries and other distractions, than all bets are off. But there is little or nothing anyone can do about bad luck.

Sometimes, injuries are caused by factors other than "bad luck". Many
times, you make your own luck.

Such as putting players out of position or assigning 'light' bigs to fight
it out with 'solid' bigs. Or having players cover multiple positions.

Talented General Managers, Head Coaches and players show skill over
luck. Skill is pro-active. Luck is passive.

The Suns are not going to take the next step if they don't earn it.

The same with bad foul calls. The Suns have earned the reputation of
being a light team for a long time. The aggressors get the calls. Those
who don't blame it on bad luck.

Football is a contact sport when blocking or tackling.

Basketball is a contact sort for all five players every minute on the
court all game long. Back and forth. Highly prone to injury if they are
not staffed or coached properly. The winners win and the losers lose.

 

[BC867]

Following up my previous post, I'd like to offer a different perspective
about Deandre Ayton based, of course, on what I've seen.

With a full year of NBA experience behind him, Ayton avoids contact! On
a team that has historically done the same. The refs rewards contact.

Spending my first 37 years on the East Coast, then 41 in Phoenix, I've
been very happy that Phoenix is much more laid back. But it doesn't
help our basketball team. Or football team.

And, having honeymooned in the Bahamas, I can tell you that it is much
more laid back than Phoenix. That is where Ayton was raised.

As chiseled as he is, it is his emotional being that holds him back from
being the powerhouse that we need if we are going to advance.

And probably contributed to his naivety with drugs. There is a whole
different outlook in the Caribbean. The Bahamas are not directly in
the Caribbean, but they are sure close enough.

I believe that the above synopsis explains why he plays tentatively
and why he cost us a third of the season through his naivety.

He is a product of his upbringing.

 

[Mainstreet]

Davis’s lack of success with the pelicans is a fair point. Some of it may have been due to lack of talent around him. He did make it to the playoffs twice.

The only point I was trying to make is that Ayton's upside is tremendous at this point. I don't expect him to be Anthony Davis but the stat comparison shows his upside is that of a special player.

 

[Mainstreet]

I can respect the comp offensively, but this eliminates AD's most transcendent trait. His other-worldly defense.

I would be so much happier if Ayton knew how to play off-ball defense even 25% as good as AD does.

Fans may have to learn to be happy with what they get from Ayton.

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[CRC83]

The only point I was trying to make is that Ayton's upside is tremendous at this point. I don't expect him to be Anthony Davis but the stat comparison shows his upside is that of a special player.

I completely agree. He absolutely has tremendous potential. It’s just funny that certain people on this forum think it’s some crazy idea to take a 2-time all star big, who is only 24, and had better stats early in his career over potential/upside.

But hopefully I am completely wrong and Ayton becomes the best big in the league. My biggest concerns are his mentality towards the game, and if he can improve significantly on defense. Does he have the desire to be great and dominate. He’s shown it at times. If he can consistently bring that effort and aggressiveness I’m hopeful he can reach his potential.

 

[Phrazbit]

Not so! I'm "obsessed" with a Center who will play, and can bang,
down low. One who can draw fouls.

That leaves two possibilities. Trade Ayton for a Center who will,
like Baynes, but one young enough to play starter's minutes.

Or, if not, get a Center who will and move Ayton to the logical
position of Power Forward, given his preference to play outside
and has shown no skill in maneuvering to the post while the
possession is in progress.

He was one of the best interior scorers in the league last year.

This is complete nonsense.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Well there was getting offensive boards, good passing and one of the biggest things in the NBA which is actually scoring. Offensively he had an efficient game , defensively wasn't great. His defense wasn't the reason they lost. He gave up some shots he could have probably altered but that is on a very long list of reasons they lost, such as letting Lou Williams put on a shooting clinic in the third or the bench failing to score until garbage time in the fourth

A 7 footer shooting 47% and missing his only free throw is an efficient offensive game?

 

[CRC83]

Fans may have to learn to be happy with what they get from Ayton.

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Interesting quote. Trying to lower expectations? Trying to get people to stop comparing to Luka...or at least get over it? Hmm...

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Ayton should easily average 5 free throw attempts per game and should be closer to 10. Take a look at his peers like KAT and Embiid. His lack of free throw attempts in his 2 games and preseason is the condemning metric that displays lack of aggression.

There is more to getting to the free throw line than aggression (see Oubre who is very aggressive and yet doesn't get many free throws). There is an art to creating contact and selling contact that Ayton will have to learn in order to turn that number around, but aggression is only a part of it.

 

[Mainstreet]

Interesting quote. Trying to lower expectations? Trying to get people to stop comparing to Luka...or at least get over it? Hmm...

IMO, James Jones is trying to change expectations for Ayton not necessarily lower them.

Ayton may never be this intimidating shot blocking center that a lot of fans crave but he may be a tremendous offensive force who racks up large quantities of rebounds to go with his points. Suns might need to add a defensive power forward to play beside him if it works out this way.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

There is more to getting to the free throw line than aggression (see Oubre who is very aggressive and yet doesn't get many free throws). There is an art to creating contact and selling contact that Ayton will have to learn in order to turn that number around, but aggression is only a part of it.

I’d be pretty happy if by the end of January Ayton was averaging oubre’s 4 1/2 FTs per game. I mean that’s almost double what Ayton shot last year (my god it hurts my brain to have to recall that putridity - for an entire freaking season for a 7 foot athletic god).

 

[TJ]

IMO, James Jones is trying to change expectations for Ayton not necessarily lower them.

Ayton may never be this intimidating shot blocking center that a lot of fans crave but he may be a tremendous offensive force who racks up large quantities of rebounds to go with his points. Suns might need to add a defensive power forward to play beside him if it works out this way.

I think people are expecting him to be AD or KAT right now, but neither were any better than Ayton as a rookie. Would rather Jones say to fans to exercise patience, but anyone who thinks Ayton is anywhere near a finished product is a fool

 

[CRC83]

I think people are expecting him to be AD or KAT right now, but neither were any better than Ayton as a rookie. Would rather Jones say to fans to exercise patience, but anyone who thinks Ayton is anywhere near a finished product is a fool

KAT was better as a rookie. Slightly better offensively in all categories but FG % (54 vs 58). But KAT shot the 3 occasionally (at 34%). The big difference in their rookie seasons was on the defensive side. KAT averaged almost twice as many blocks. It’s not just about offense when assessing players.

 

[TJ]

KAT was better as a rookie. Slightly better offensively in all categories but FG % (54 vs 58). But KAT shot the 3 occasionally (at 34%). The big difference in their rookie seasons was on the defensive side. KAT averaged almost twice as many blocks. It’s not just about offense when assessing players.

Marginal at best difference, especially if you consider that Ayton was the second scoring option. Certainly not enough to give your argument legitimate consideration. Also, KAT wasn’t a good defender at all his rookie year. Looked very slow and lost. Still convinced he’s not that great of a defender today.

 

[CRC83]

Marginal at best difference, especially if you consider that Ayton was the second scoring option. Certainly not enough to give your argument legitimate consideration. Also, KAT wasn’t a good defender at all his rookie year. Looked very slow and lost. Still convinced he’s not that great of a defender today.

Better defender than Ayton was/is. Ayton has the tools to be better than him.

Anyways, it’s hard to argue the stats. KAT was better, even if it was slightly.

 

[TJ]

Ayton has the tools to be better than him.

That’s all I wanted you to admit. And he’ll get there by next season. Maybe at the end of this season. But notice that the progression of bigs these days is slower than that of backcourt players? This is why I go back to KAT and AD having relatively similar rookie stats, with Ayton’s ceiling being at or higher than theirs.

Anyways, it’s hard to argue the stats. KAT was better, even if it was slightly.

Sure, but I’m being told that Ayton is a stat-stuffer, so I guess objective, measurable data is now up for interpretation across the board

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Better defender than Ayton was/is. Ayton has the tools to be better than him.

Anyways, it’s hard to argue the stats. KAT was better, even if it was slightly.

KAT was and is a pretty bad defender. It would be difficult to say that he was/is better.

 

[CRC83]

That’s all I wanted you to admit. And he’ll get there by next season. Maybe at the end of this season. But notice that the progression of bigs these days is slower than that of backcourt players? This is why I go back to KAT and AD having relatively similar rookie stats, with Ayton’s ceiling being at or higher than theirs.




Sure, but I’m being told that Ayton is a stat-stuffer, so I guess objective, measurable data is now up for interpretation across the board

Oh I absolutely think he has the physical tools. Never said otherwise.

But it seems you think potential/upside = sure thing. Which it doesn’t. But I really hope he does get there. Would be awesome.

 

[Sunburn]

One tool he seems to lack to me is competitiveness. I don't get the impression he wants to win all that much, or beat his man for that matter. That's a pretty significant factor in growth potential, as it seems to me the players that grow the most are those with a strong competitive drive.

 

[GatorAZ]

One tool he seems to lack to me is competitiveness. I don't get the impression he wants to win all that much, or beat his man for that matter. That's a pretty significant factor in growth potential, as it seems to me the players that grow the most are those with a strong competitive drive.

And Ayton shouldn’t be blamed for that. He is who he is. The Suns weren’t forced to draft him.

McDonough was just obsessed with the measurables and never did a deep psychological dive on him IMO.

You could make the same argument for Towns but he’s at least expanded his game offensively.

 

[Cheesebeef]

One tool he seems to lack to me is competitiveness. I don't get the impression he wants to win all that much, or beat his man for that matter. That's a pretty significant factor in growth potential, as it seems to me the players that grow the most are those with a strong competitive drive.

beyond that, he doesn't have seem to posses strong natural instincts on defense, especially defending the rim.

lack of major fire in your belly and natural defensive instincts will ultimately make it hard for Ayton to become an impact player on the defensive side of the court.

 

[leclerc]

IMO, James Jones is trying to change expectations for Ayton not necessarily lower them.

Ayton may never be this intimidating shot blocking center that a lot of fans crave but he may be a tremendous offensive force who racks up large quantities of rebounds to go with his points. Suns might need to add a defensive power forward to play beside him if it works out this way.

That's what I've been thinking. We need a Kurt Thomas to go with our laid back Amaré. I think Saric brings a lot to the table and hopefully Baynes can play the role if he stays healthy, but going forward this should be up on the list.

We could also use a third scorer. Maybe Cam and Elie can grow into scorers. Let's hope.

It's easy to be disappointed when they started so well and have now hit some rough spots with injuries and bad refs. I would be delighted if they turn it around and go on a winning streak but the chances of making the playoffs are slim.

 

[swagron]

Sometimes, injuries are caused by factors other than "bad luck". Many
times, you make your own luck.

Such as putting players out of position or assigning 'light' bigs to fight
it out with 'solid' bigs. Or having players cover multiple positions.

Talented General Managers, Head Coaches and players show skill over
luck. Skill is pro-active. Luck is passive.

The Suns are not going to take the next step if they don't earn it.

The same with bad foul calls. The Suns have earned the reputation of
being a light team for a long time. The aggressors get the calls. Those
who don't blame it on bad luck.

Football is a contact sport when blocking or tackling.

Basketball is a contact sort for all five players every minute on the
court all game long. Back and forth. Highly prone to injury if they are
not staffed or coached properly. The winners win and the losers lose.

With all the post game chatter of bad luck, bad injuries and bad refs, this post is as accurate as you can get. Winners WIN!

 

[swagron]

Ayton has some work to do to shed these claims but I don't know how anyone can watch us this last week and think Booker doesn't impact winning. Ridiculous.

Who scores 70 points....in a LOSS? Ridiculous