Suns, Eric Bledsoe Far Apart In Talks

[AzStevenCal]

I don't think the two situations are comparable. Dragic played for the national team, and then he had to carry the Suns on his back because Bledsoe was hurt for half a season. He burned out and got bruised up. Don't forget he played hurt for a few games at the end of the season. I would argue that Bledsoe's injuries are the reason Dragic wasn't playing at a star level the entire season.

I will say that Dragic' next contract needs to include the clause giving the Suns an option to say he cannot play for the national team during the off season or something similar. Dragic plays at 100% every minute of every game, and summer ball simply affects his durability during an 82-game season.

I'm missing something here. You seem to be agreeing with me that his international commitment hurts his regular season performance but then you say it's because of Eric's injury. We didn't overplay him as far as minutes go but I thought he clearly wore down and I think that's mostly a function of the style he plays and his international play. It would be nice if we could put a stop to him playing for his country but that might be a hard sell. I don't think Bledsoe's injury caused Goran's decline but I'd be hopeful that we could keep all of our guards fresher this season given the number of talented guards we hope to have.

I think the best we can hope for with Dragic's home country commitment is to have him lay the groundwork for his retirement from international ball. I'd suggest a public announcement such as: I'm getting to the point where my body can no longer handle a year around commitment so this will be my final season playing for Slovenia. I hope to continue supporting our National team in an advisory capacity in the future. Thank you for your support. Etc.

Steve

 

[Muggum]

Joe Johnson PTSD.

 

[SirStefan32]

I'm missing something here. You seem to be agreeing with me that his international commitment hurts his regular season performance but then you say it's because of Eric's injury. We didn't overplay him as far as minutes go but I thought he clearly wore down and I think that's mostly a function of the style he plays and his international play. It would be nice if we could put a stop to him playing for his country but that might be a hard sell. I don't think Bledsoe's injury caused Goran's decline but I'd be hopeful that we could keep all of our guards fresher this season given the number of talented guards we hope to have.

I think the best we can hope for with Dragic's home country commitment is to have him lay the groundwork for his retirement from international ball. I'd suggest a public announcement such as: I'm getting to the point where my body can no longer handle a year around commitment so this will be my final season playing for Slovenia. I hope to continue supporting our National team in an advisory capacity in the future. Thank you for your support. Etc.

Steve

Well, sometimes there are multiple factors. Are you suggesting that Bledsoe's absence did not cause Dragic to have to carry the team for half a season?

Playing for the national team was a factor. Bledsoe's injury was a factor. Playing at 100% every single minute of every single game is a factor. Not sitting out a game here and there when he is bruised up is a factor. Playing through injuries is a factor. Being out of gas and being banged up for the last 20 games of the season or so is really not the same thing as having two knee surgeries in three years.

 

[Superbone]

Dragic definitely seems to be the more durable of the two. I was concerned when Bledsoe was out two weeks with a bruised shin.

 

[SirStefan32]

Dragic definitely seems to be the more durable of the two. I was concerned when Bledsoe was out two weeks with a bruised shin.

Not sure how bad that was in Bledsoe's case, but I can vouch that a bruised shin can be a lot more painful than it sounds.

Those minor injuries happen, so Bledsoe's bruised shin doesn't bother me. Multiple knee surgeries scare the crap out of me though. Douche bag players who think they are entitled to everything scare me even more than multiple knee surgeries, and that's what Bledsoe is.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Well, sometimes there are multiple factors. Are you suggesting that Bledsoe's absence did not cause Dragic to have to carry the team for half a season?

Playing for the national team was a factor. Bledsoe's injury was a factor. Playing at 100% every single minute of every single game is a factor. Not sitting out a game here and there when he is bruised up is a factor. Playing through injuries is a factor. Being out of gas and being banged up for the last 20 games of the season or so is really not the same thing as having two knee surgeries in three years.

Don't you think we'd have used Dragic pretty much the same way even if we hadn't traded Dudley for Bledsoe ? A healthy Bledsoe would have taken some of the load off of Goran but his NBA job is to play in the NBA with or without Eric. It's a fact of life in the NBA that players get injured and someone has to pick up the slack. But playing in the offseason when your body should be healing up for the season is the problem IMO.

Steve

 

[BC867]

Don't you think we'd have used Dragic pretty much the same way even if we hadn't traded Dudley for Bledsoe ? A healthy Bledsoe would have taken some of the load off of Goran but his NBA job is to play in the NBA with or without Eric. It's a fact of life in the NBA that players get injured and someone has to pick up the slack. But playing in the offseason when your body should be healing up for the season is the problem IMO.

Steve

I should hope that if we didn't have Bledsoe for a 2-Point Guard lineup, we would have had a more established backup Point Guard to give Dragic normal rest.

And that does not mean Barbosa, to whom I compared Bledsoe months ago in that neither is a steady Point Guard -- just in the body of one.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I should hope that if we didn't have Bledsoe for a 2-Point Guard lineup, we would have had a more established backup Point Guard to give Dragic normal rest.

And that does not mean Barbosa, to whom I compared Bledsoe months ago in that neither is a steady Point Guard -- just in the body of one.

As far as I can tell, Goran played roughly the same minutes per game before and after Eric's injury. He averaged only 35.1 minutes per game for the season.


Bledsoe is a physical guard and he plays defense. Two qualities that Leandro never possessed.

Steve

 

[Superbone]

As far as I can tell, Goran played roughly the same minutes per game before and after Eric's injury. He averaged only 35.1 minutes per game for the season.

But you've got to admit, they were a different kind of minutes. It's a lot less pressure when you've got two ball handlers and you take turns bringing the ball up the court versus you being the primary ball handler and you are responsible for starting the offense every time down court and are the sole fast breaking point guard.

 

[AzStevenCal]

But you've got to admit, they were a different kind of minutes. It's a lot less pressure when you've got two ball handlers and you take turns bringing the ball up the court versus you being the primary ball handler and you are responsible for starting the offense every time down court and are the sole fast breaking point guard.

Sure and that's the whole point of playing two combo guards together.

Steve

 

[BC867]

Sure and that's the whole point of playing two combo guards together.

Steve

But, as anything else in life, there are offsets.

Dragic reaching the level of top dog/lead Point Guard, but having to relinquish the position off and on during the half season playing alongside Bledsoe. Whenever I saw them playing together, Dragic became the Shooting Guard. How would that play next season?

Bledsoe wanting to be top dog/lead Point Guard, even though his turnovers are way too high. And he is not a Shooting Guard. And he has given no indication that he wants to be a Sun. Dragic has.

The arrangement led us to not having a top quality backup Point Guard last season.

Now we may have three wanting to be the man. Which will add to the problems of sharing the position if Bledsoe really wants to be with the Suns.

It was a novel experiment. But it showed too many flaws.

Remember, when Joe Dumars moved from his position of Shooting Guard to backup Point Guard to rest Isaiah, he did just that. It was never a 2-Point Guard arrangement. And, as has been discussed earlier, as well, when Westphal and Buse played together, they were two Shooting Guards, with one acting as Point Guard. Neither was a Point Guard.

Dragic and Bledsoe are a different story. Dragic is a Point Guard who can shoot. Bledsoe is not. He is not the man to run the offense and he is not an outside shooter. And, for good measure, his stability is a risk, as we have lived through.

We almost snuck into the playoffs with them (another Suns gimmick team with limitations), but ultimately did not. Now our ceiling isn't too much higher than it was raised to last season.

I am for building a solid foundation on which to grow going forward. For many reasons, I don't see Eric Bledsoe fitting into that long range plan.

 

[Mainstreet]

How come everyone is making such a big deal out of Bledsoe's injury history and completely ignoring the fact that Dragic is a great player for 67% of the season and fairly average for the remainder? I don't know if he can actually improve but having him perform at a star level for the entire season would be a huge improvement. Almost as big of an improvement as getting Bledsoe to play in more than 51% of the season.

Steve

So if you were giving Dragic a combined score for the season based upon your percentages of "great player" and "fairly average" play, what score would you give him for the entire season?

 

[Mainstreet]

Tony Parker signs an extension with Spurs for a reported 43.3 million over three years, about 14 million per season So will this have an impact on Bledsoe's contract? Parker is scheduled to make 12.5 million this season as I understand it. The Suns offer is looking better and better as Parker has proven his worth. If the Suns were to bump their offer to 50 million over four years (12.5 million per season), it would be the ceiling. The 48 million offer to Bledsoe over 4 years is more than fair.

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/11296467/san-antonio-spurs-sign-tony-parker-multiyear-extension

 

[Chaplin]

But, as anything else in life, there are offsets.

Dragic reaching the level of top dog/lead Point Guard, but having to relinquish the position off and on during the half season playing alongside Bledsoe. Whenever I saw them playing together, Dragic became the Shooting Guard. How would that play next season?

Bledsoe wanting to be top dog/lead Point Guard, even though his turnovers are way too high. And he is not a Shooting Guard. And he has given no indication that he wants to be a Sun. Dragic has.

The arrangement led us to not having a top quality backup Point Guard last season.

Now we may have three wanting to be the man. Which will add to the problems of sharing the position if Bledsoe really wants to be with the Suns.

It was a novel experiment. But it showed too many flaws.

Remember, when Joe Dumars moved from his position of Shooting Guard to backup Point Guard to rest Isaiah, he did just that. It was never a 2-Point Guard arrangement. And, as has been discussed earlier, as well, when Westphal and Buse played together, they were two Shooting Guards, with one acting as Point Guard. Neither was a Point Guard.

Dragic and Bledsoe are a different story. Dragic is a Point Guard who can shoot. Bledsoe is not. He is not the man to run the offense and he is not an outside shooter. And, for good measure, his stability is a risk, as we have lived through.

We almost snuck into the playoffs with them (another Suns gimmick team with limitations), but ultimately did not. Now our ceiling isn't too much higher than it was raised to last season.

I am for building a solid foundation on which to grow going forward. For many reasons, I don't see Eric Bledsoe fitting into that long range plan.

You are so unbelievably locked into positions, it's bordering on absurd. In today's NBA, positions are pretty much defined only by the height of guys, not their skillset. It started with Magic back in the day and has evolved into what we see today. Finesse centers, stretch 4s, point forwards, scoring point guards. THAT'S the league today, not traditional banger center and power forward, shooter 2 and 3 and passing 1. Any wonder that Kendall Marshall failed so miserably? He was the old breed of point guard that doesn't have a place in today's game.

 

[AzStevenCal]

So if you were giving Dragic a combined score for the season based upon your percentages of "great player" and "fairly average" play, what score would you give him for the entire season?

Putting it in letter terms, I'd give him a B, maybe a B+. Nothing wrong with that grade but considering that he played like a solid A for much of the season, I'd kind of like to see him fresh enough to do it for 82 games. I understand why he's playing for his country and honestly, it's tough to fault him for it. But I can't help but want more from him now that he's proven he has that to give.

Steve

 

[AzStevenCal]

But, as anything else in life, there are offsets.

Dragic reaching the level of top dog/lead Point Guard, but having to relinquish the position off and on during the half season playing alongside Bledsoe. Whenever I saw them playing together, Dragic became the Shooting Guard. How would that play next season?

Bledsoe wanting to be top dog/lead Point Guard, even though his turnovers are way too high. And he is not a Shooting Guard. And he has given no indication that he wants to be a Sun. Dragic has.

The arrangement led us to not having a top quality backup Point Guard last season.

Now we may have three wanting to be the man. Which will add to the problems of sharing the position if Bledsoe really wants to be with the Suns.

It was a novel experiment. But it showed too many flaws.

Remember, when Joe Dumars moved from his position of Shooting Guard to backup Point Guard to rest Isaiah, he did just that. It was never a 2-Point Guard arrangement. And, as has been discussed earlier, as well, when Westphal and Buse played together, they were two Shooting Guards, with one acting as Point Guard. Neither was a Point Guard.

Dragic and Bledsoe are a different story. Dragic is a Point Guard who can shoot. Bledsoe is not. He is not the man to run the offense and he is not an outside shooter. And, for good measure, his stability is a risk, as we have lived through.

We almost snuck into the playoffs with them (another Suns gimmick team with limitations), but ultimately did not. Now our ceiling isn't too much higher than it was raised to last season.

I am for building a solid foundation on which to grow going forward. For many reasons, I don't see Eric Bledsoe fitting into that long range plan.

In what way? Why have results stopped being the measuring stick when it comes to this experiment. We won something like two-thirds of our games when they started together. When they were both on the court our defense, DEFENSE, was the second most effective unit in the league and our offense was the fifth most. I can see concerns over his health but why in the world would anyone want to disrupt that kind of performance? Especially since it was still in it's infancy - those guys hardly knew what they were capable of.

Steve

 

[Mainstreet]

Putting it in letter terms, I'd give him a B, maybe a B+. Nothing wrong with that grade but considering that he played like a solid A for much of the season, I'd kind of like to see him fresh enough to do it for 82 games. I understand why he's playing for his country and honestly, it's tough to fault him for it. But I can't help but want more from him now that he's proven he has that to give.

Steve

I'd give Dragic a B+ as well.

I'm not sure how this would workout with Dragic having a player option in 2015-16, but perhaps the Suns should tell him no to international play in the future. I don't think Dragic will ever say no on his own. It might take the pressure off his shoulders if the Suns did it.

This is beginning to sound like college again.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I'd give Dragic a B+ as well.

I'm not sure how this would workout with Dragic having a player option in 2015-16, but perhaps the Suns should tell him no to international play in the future. I don't think Dragic will ever say no on his own. It might take the pressure off his shoulders if the Suns did it.

This is beginning to sound like college again.

He said he was going to tell them no this summer but somebody or somebodies convinced him otherwise. I really don't know what I'd do if I were him. He has a strong sense of national loyalty and he's loved there. It would be hard to let them down. Hopefully he can play there once more and then make the "thank you I'm done" declaration but I don't know that we want to be the bad guy here. Unless he asks us to be the bad guy. Cuban had a little more league wide respect when he put his foot down on Dirk, Sarver has to be a little more careful IMO.

Steve

 

[Mainstreet]

He said he was going to tell them no this summer but somebody or somebodies convinced him otherwise. I really don't know what I'd do if I were him. He has a strong sense of national loyalty and he's loved there. It would be hard to let them down. Hopefully he can play there once more and then make the "thank you I'm done" declaration but I don't know that we want to be the bad guy here. Unless he asks us to be the bad guy. Cuban had a little more league wide respect when he put his foot down on Dirk, Sarver has to be a little more careful IMO.

Steve

This is what I'm talking about although I don't think Dragic will ever ask.

 

[BC867]

You are so unbelievably locked into positions, it's bordering on absurd. In today's NBA, positions are pretty much defined only by the height of guys, not their skillset. It started with Magic back in the day and has evolved into what we see today. Finesse centers, stretch 4s, point forwards, scoring point guards. THAT'S the league today, not traditional banger center and power forward, shooter 2 and 3 and passing 1. Any wonder that Kendall Marshall failed so miserably? He was the old breed of point guard that doesn't have a place in today's game.

Well, if Bledsoe plays, and plays a full season, for the Suns as one of 3 Point Guards who need playing time, we will see how the 2014-15 season ends up for the Suns.

Until then, it is all just opinions. Personally, I don't think it is going to take all season if Bledsoe signs. I think he'll be gone before then.
===============================================

I just went back and re-read your second sentence. "In today's NBA, positions are pretty much defined only by the height of guys, not their skillset." That quote is so exaggerated, I won't even respond.

Peace, brother.

 

[Folster]

I think an easy solution to the Bledsoe hold out is to include a player option after the 2nd year. It's been reported that the Suns offered a 4 year $48 million contract with annual decreases of 7.5% (front loaded). If you compare that to the max 5 year $80 million contact with annual increases at 7.5%, the difference is only about $2.8 million after the second year. If Bledsoe can stay healthy and prove that he deserves a max contact, he can opt out and get his money. If not he can play out the remainder of his contact.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Anyone here Sarver on the radio today. He called gambo and publicly disagreed with his open letter. Said players have short careers so they are trying to get what they can. He just sees this as negotiations. He believes they have made a fair offer but understands that others don't agree. He denied ever saying that he would match ANY offer. He said the suns would welcome Bledsoe back whether it's a one, four or five year deal.

It was supposed to be an impromptu call in be seemed staged. I wonder if Gambo's open letter did damage. The one comment about 1,4,or 5 was an aside but significant. The suns are willing to let Bledsoe take the QO rather than get tied into a deal they don't like.

He made a lot of Bledsoe being a good character guy and a Professional.

 

[Chaplin]

Well, if Bledsoe plays, and plays a full season, for the Suns as one of 3 Point Guards who need playing time, we will see how the 2014-15 season ends up for the Suns.

Until then, it is all just opinions. Personally, I don't think it is going to take all season if Bledsoe signs. I think he'll be gone before then.
===============================================

I just went back and re-read your second sentence. "In today's NBA, positions are pretty much defined only by the height of guys, not their skillset." That quote is so exaggerated, I won't even respond.

Peace, brother.

You completely missed it--Dragic is the hybrid shooting guard. That is a given. So why do you lock him in as one of the 3 point guards there is no room for? That makes no sense and is once again part of your antiquated view of what the NBA and the Suns should be. And unfortunately, it just isn't like that anymore. Not saying it's good, not saying it's bad, but it is the reality of the present that some people need to acknowledge.

 

[Jay Cardinal]

I think an easy solution to the Bledsoe hold out is to include a player option after the 2nd year. It's been reported that the Suns offered a 4 year $48 million contract with annual decreases of 7.5% (front loaded). If you compare that to the max 5 year $80 million contact with annual increases at 7.5%, the difference is only about $2.8 million after the second year. If Bledsoe can stay healthy and prove that he deserves a max contact, he can opt out and get his money. If not he can play out the remainder of his contact.

That would be a horrible contract for the Suns. Four years of risk on the downside, but only two years of control in case he blows up and does really well.

Bledsoe is a RFA, not an unrestricted LeBron-level player. I can almost guarantee we will not see his final contract constructed this way. I am sure the Suns would not offer it, maybe another team like Philly or Milwaukee in order to steal him away.

I really do not see any motivation for the Suns to move from 4/48. As Sarver said yesterday on Gambo's show, they think it is a fair offer. No one else has signed him to an offer sheet. No sense in negotiating against our selves.

 

[elindholm]

You completely missed it--Dragic is the hybrid shooting guard. That is a given.

I don't think it's a given. Green is a better fit at SG than SF (and the Suns are logjammed at SF anyway), and the team is trying to develop Goodwin. Playing Dragic at SG gets in the way of both of those priorities. It's much cleaner if Bledsoe leaves, Dragic gets most of his minutes at PG, and once in a while we see a Thomas/Dragic lineup.

The bottom line is that the Suns have too many people for the small positions (SF, SG, PG). There are only 144 minutes to go around. If you keep Bledsoe and start penciling in numbers of minutes for people, the only way it can work is if someone gets really short-changed or you play hyper-small lineups.