JS22
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So what? Every team does this. It's why it's called RESTRICTED free agency. Didn't stop teams from offering Hayward and Parsons ridiculous contract, did it?
Suns, Eric Bledsoe Far Apart In Talks
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So what? Every team does this. It's why it's called RESTRICTED free agency. Didn't stop teams from offering Hayward and Parsons ridiculous contract, did it?
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I wasn't complaining, just stating what I think has happened. I'm in agreement with the way we've handled our business this offseason. I was just making the point that you can't look at Eric's offseason and say it's proof that no one thought he was worth big bucks. Because he's restricted, it's big bucks plus assets.
Steve
I haven't seen this posted. Maybe something to keep our eye on?
http://fansided.com/2014/08/27/eric-bledsoe-rumors-indiana-pacers-exploring-trade/#!bLqpVc
SirStefan32
Krycek, Alex Krycek
Indiana cannot make a real offer to anyone. They are currently at just under $70M for next year. That leaves S&T as the only option, and I don't think Indiana has anything the Suns want.
Errntknght
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What if we signed Bledsoe and traded him for Hibbert straight up. I know the latter crashed and burned at the end of the season but he really is a terrific post defender. Let's face it, if it weren't for his falling apart, Indiana wouldn't consider the trade. McD would have to determine if he thought there was a good chance Mr. Hibbert could put that behind him, of course. He's not a perfect fit since its a PF that we have the biggest need of but that can probably be worked out... Plumlee would be a good backup C but that leaves Len getting almost no time at that position. Who knows he may develop into a good power forward if his face up shot is really coming along.
Hell no the last thing any team wants is a play with the mental make up of Roy Hibbert on the team. He was exposed as being super fragile and a guy you can't depend on last year no way
devilalum
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I don't know if Hibbert's a good fit for the Suns but 2 seasons ago the guy was untouchable, he has one bad stretch and now he's dog food?
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I don't agree with either extreme. He's a pretty good defensive center but has always been overrated IMO, at least since the season he "earned" his big contract. Notice that his contract year was his best season. He was a product of that team's style and David Falk's ability to generate buzz and build a player image. He protects the rim but he's useless 10 feet from the hoop. His brief flirtation with greatness came when he threw himself at the conditioning process, something he's never done before and something he's been less consistent with since.
He's still a good player despite going two months without a rebound (slight exaggeration) but two more years at 15 million per for a player worth about 10 million doesn't excite me. And that second year is an option year so you can bet he'll get his body and head together one more time so that Falk can get him a 20 million dollar a year deal. No thanks.
If we could get him as a free agent on a reasonable contract, I'd probably do it, but I wouldn't give up Bledsoe for him given his salary, option and Falk connection. We'd pretty much have to build our team around him and there are too many questions about him for us to do that, IMO.
Steve
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Chaplin
Better off silent
I've rarely posted on this massive thread, but I have to say, I have really no feelings about Bledsoe one way or another. Happy, unhappy, whatever. It's hard to even care about it, when we have Goran Dragic out there that loves Phoenix and loves being a Sun. To me, total silence is almost worse than him putting in a request to be traded. At lease we'd know he didn't want to be here.
But I will say if we had the chance to get Hibbert for Bledsoe, I'd jump all over that. Why? Well, firstly we probably won't get anything better in a sign-and-trade situation. Secondly, I'm confused why people are so uppity about the guy. Yes, he had a terrible playoffs, no question. And that is a red flag, but is it a stop sign? Not at all IMO. I like Plumlee, but come on, Hibbert is much better than Plumlee. A different supporting cast can make a big difference. There is NO question the guy would help us make the playoffs. Anyone arguing that? Right now, that's better than what we've got.
Bledsoe and his agent have been approaching this all wrong, while IMO the Suns have been doing everything right. No need to bid against themselves in the media. If Bledsoe wants more money, then he has to step up and negotiate. Taking the QO is extremely risky and stupid, IMO. Not only is his risk for injury high, but I find it hard to believe we would want to play him as much as needed for him to earn a max contract. Hell, we play him that much, it increases his injury risk. It's a Catch 22 and an awful decision if he goes that way.
That said, we've still got a few more weeks to get this figured out. The QO to me is essentially a chance to lose him for nothing. Sure we could still trade him, but how much would we be able to get for a guy on a QO? Maybe by the All-Star break he'll have earned some of that potential earnings back, I don't know.
But I will say if we had the chance to get Hibbert for Bledsoe, I'd jump all over that. Why? Well, firstly we probably won't get anything better in a sign-and-trade situation. Secondly, I'm confused why people are so uppity about the guy. Yes, he had a terrible playoffs, no question. And that is a red flag, but is it a stop sign? Not at all IMO. I like Plumlee, but come on, Hibbert is much better than Plumlee. A different supporting cast can make a big difference. There is NO question the guy would help us make the playoffs. Anyone arguing that? Right now, that's better than what we've got.
Bledsoe and his agent have been approaching this all wrong, while IMO the Suns have been doing everything right. No need to bid against themselves in the media. If Bledsoe wants more money, then he has to step up and negotiate. Taking the QO is extremely risky and stupid, IMO. Not only is his risk for injury high, but I find it hard to believe we would want to play him as much as needed for him to earn a max contract. Hell, we play him that much, it increases his injury risk. It's a Catch 22 and an awful decision if he goes that way.
That said, we've still got a few more weeks to get this figured out. The QO to me is essentially a chance to lose him for nothing. Sure we could still trade him, but how much would we be able to get for a guy on a QO? Maybe by the All-Star break he'll have earned some of that potential earnings back, I don't know.
Chaplin
Better off silent
If we're going the small ball route, sure. But I wonder if the system is dictating the personnel or the personnel is dictating the system. Bring Hibbert in and we start looking at a more traditional lineup situation. And I know at least one guy on this board that would LOVE that.
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15 million per year and we'd probably only have him for one season as he has a player option for the second season. There are several other's but this one is a deal breaker IMO. I'd rather pay Bledsoe 3.7 million for one if that were our only choice. And my feelings regarding Hibbert being overrated pre-date the playoffs. He's pretty good but nothing more.
Steve
Chaplin
Better off silent
I see you haven't disputed that he would get us into the playoffs. How many players on the current Suns are "pretty good" besides Dragic?
elindholm
edited for content
If Hibbert were to come to Phoenix and do well, I'd think he'd be inclined to stay. So I wouldn't be worried about the player option.
That said, I'd like to have a better understanding of what was wrong with him. His play was so lackluster in the second half of last season (never mind the playoffs) that I suspect he might have issues with depression or some other psychological malady. Chemistry on last year's Pacers was poor in general, but that isn't enough on its own to explain Hibbert's massive regression.
That said, I'd like to have a better understanding of what was wrong with him. His play was so lackluster in the second half of last season (never mind the playoffs) that I suspect he might have issues with depression or some other psychological malady. Chemistry on last year's Pacers was poor in general, but that isn't enough on its own to explain Hibbert's massive regression.
chickenhead
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I was about to bring up the Pacers general chemistry. Something was really off with that team. It was almost bizarre.
Chaplin
Better off silent
I don't know if it had anything to do with it, but Lance Stephenson seemed like a divisive personality. Even though they had a star in Paul George, maybe that locker room just wasn't that strong?
SO91
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As a defender, he's not just pretty good. I saw stats not too long ago and he was the best rim protector in the league last year. Indiana's defense was built to funnel people towards him for a reason. I don't want to get into a debate about worth, because I don't find those debates worthwhile, but I wouldn't be scared of the price tag for the next 2 years. Keep in mind you're not "giving up" Bledsoe, since this dude doesn't appear to want to sign here, and will lose him for nothing eventually anyways if no deal gets done.
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He's a very good rim protector but that's not the same thing as being a very good defender. And you're right, their defense was based on funneling the offense towards him. But once teams started spreading the court with penetrators and shooters on each side, he became a problem not an asset.
Steve
Errntknght
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I certainly don't have any insight into Hibbert's mental make up but my thinking has been that it was the pressure, largely put on the team by itself. It worked great early in the season but they burned themselves out, instead of building toward a climax. There might have been chemistry problems but it seemed to me they didn't show up until the team hit the downslope. If Roy sees himself as the team leader he would probably have felt the most intense pressure. Its probably a sign of just how competitive NBA players are - start showing weakness of any kind and you will get devoured, no matter who you are.
Phrazbit
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I'd be more inclined to roll the dice on a risky player like Hibbert if there was one that fit our team better. The Suns are built to attack in transition and Hibbert is anything but. It would be one thing to plug in a guy who does not fit if you knew he could still preform but I don't know if some of you realize just how terrible he was last season.
His PER of 13.54 was really bad, his shooting percentage of 43% is horrendous for a pure interior player, his rebound rate was significantly worse than what we used to bitch about from Stoudemire, he stopped blocking shots and started fouling people. His post all-star game stats of 39% shooting, 9 points, 4.7 rebounds, 1.8 blks and 3.3 fouls would almost certainly rank him as the worst starting player in the NBA over that stretch.
It would be a huge risk to bring him in, and for a reward that IMO is pretty debatable. This is not Dikembe Mutombo we're talking about here. Even when Hibbert was playing well he was not killing it on the glass or playing better than average offensively. To minimize his weaknesses I think we'd have to drastically slow down our pace, which in turn fails to capitalize on the biggest strength of several of our players.
His PER of 13.54 was really bad, his shooting percentage of 43% is horrendous for a pure interior player, his rebound rate was significantly worse than what we used to bitch about from Stoudemire, he stopped blocking shots and started fouling people. His post all-star game stats of 39% shooting, 9 points, 4.7 rebounds, 1.8 blks and 3.3 fouls would almost certainly rank him as the worst starting player in the NBA over that stretch.
It would be a huge risk to bring him in, and for a reward that IMO is pretty debatable. This is not Dikembe Mutombo we're talking about here. Even when Hibbert was playing well he was not killing it on the glass or playing better than average offensively. To minimize his weaknesses I think we'd have to drastically slow down our pace, which in turn fails to capitalize on the biggest strength of several of our players.
Chaplin
Better off silent
And yet, his pre-All Star break stats were significantly better. The question is, which player is actually Roy Hibbert? Assuming that it's the worse of the two statlines is short-sighted, IMO. It's a mistake to automatically assume the worst he did is his "normal" self.
BC867
Long time Phoenician!
You called?
Phrazbit
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His pre-all-star stats were not all that good either (46%, 11.8 pts, 7.7 rbs), its just he totally fell apart after the all star game. Hibbert's only real strength is protecting the rim, thats been the case throughout his career, everything else he is pretty average or worse.
His salary (and the cost to trade for him) is a lot to pay for a one trick pony that I don't think would fit in with our play style... and thats with the assumption he can play more along the standards of his career numbers, which is not a given in itself.
pokerface
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Bledsoe needs to be paranoid!
Bledsoe already seemed paranoid when he said "The Suns are using free agency against me".. Hey Bledsoe...you got more things to be afraid of...Like our other quality point guards eating into your minutes....or you getting injured (again)....or not putting up the right stats. You better watch it all or your max money pipedream will go right down the toilet.
Don't be a headcase like McDyess...Take the fair offer contract....play on a good team in a good state....Either that or just play your guts out this season for LESS money.
DONT BE A DUMMY! (aka McDyess)
Bledsoe already seemed paranoid when he said "The Suns are using free agency against me".. Hey Bledsoe...you got more things to be afraid of...Like our other quality point guards eating into your minutes....or you getting injured (again)....or not putting up the right stats. You better watch it all or your max money pipedream will go right down the toilet.
Don't be a headcase like McDyess...Take the fair offer contract....play on a good team in a good state....Either that or just play your guts out this season for LESS money.
DONT BE A DUMMY! (aka McDyess)
JCSunsfan
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Ok. Hibbert is not a fit in our system. We have two centers who really have the potential to fit in our system. We are presently rebuilding. It makes more sense to develop the players that we have than go for 2-3 more wins this year and then watch Hibbert walk next year. All we would really do is set back the long term development of this team one year.
Len and Plumlee neither are guarantees. But if you have them, you might as well find out.
BUT. Hibbert would be a perfect fit in Cleveland. A three way trade that sends Bledsoe to Indy, Hibbert to Cleveland and brings us back Thompson, Waiters and a pick might be interesting. I would have to think about it. Still, its just more bodies. We need a star player at some position. That is why the best answer is the keep Bledsoe. He has the best potential to be a star player of any of the options I have seen.
Len and Plumlee neither are guarantees. But if you have them, you might as well find out.
BUT. Hibbert would be a perfect fit in Cleveland. A three way trade that sends Bledsoe to Indy, Hibbert to Cleveland and brings us back Thompson, Waiters and a pick might be interesting. I would have to think about it. Still, its just more bodies. We need a star player at some position. That is why the best answer is the keep Bledsoe. He has the best potential to be a star player of any of the options I have seen.
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Errntknght
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I'm going to have to take issue with Hibbert not fitting our style of play - very good rim protectors fit every style. 'Twould be nice if he ran the floor well but its not going to materially affect our fastbreak. His rebounding is slightly subpar for C's as he challenges so many shots he's often out of position to rebound - but he induces lots of missed shots which gives our other bigs opportunities to grab them. I would expect him to have an overall positive impact on our rebounding - and I don't mean simply because Frye is gone.
You've grumbled before about shot blocking not being a good measure of defense - I agree its not the whole story but it is psychologically quite important. Players do not like to have their shots blocked and they are quite aware of it when they are facing a notable blocker - as is often said, the true value of a shot blocker is the shots opponents don't take. In his subpar year Hibbert blocked 182 shots, 4th best behind Ibaka, DeAndre Jordan and Anthony Davis.
How good is his rim protection? Tops in the league among all players who had at least 6 shots attempted against them per game and played in at least 20 games. Either he didn't fall off much in that regard in his awful stretch or he was sensational before that. The average among the 52 who qualified was 51% FG against and Hibbert's number was 41%. Tyson might have been better when he was younger and healthy - this year he clocked in at 51 % in 55 games, blocking 63 shots. The only noteworthy omission I saw from these 52 players is Gorgui Dieng, who didn't play enough minutes to challenge 6 shots a game. (His number was 51%)
He doesn't fit perfectly into our front court since our two most promising bigs are both centers. Hibbert in not an iron man - he's never played over 30 mpg in his career so there is going to be 20 mpg to fill. That should be enough to keep Plumlee happy and Horny could probably shift a few more minutes his way without upsetting Hibbert. That appears to leave Len completely out in the cold but at his age it wouldn't be a bad idea to give him a shot at playing PF - he might even prefer it after some experience. With he and Hibbert on the floor it would be a formidable defensive frontcourt - and still very good with he and Plums together. In the long run we'd have a Plumlee and Len frontcourt, too.
Whats really fun to think about is teams going small against us, which they would certainly try. With Tucker, Warren, Marcus and Plumlee to counter with we'd control the boards and still run with them. Actually Archie could handle the SF slot against a team going small to give us more speed and not lose much in the way of rebounding - Archie wasn't far behind Frye in rebounding rate last year.
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