Suns @ Jazz game thread 3-15-18

[Errntknght]

Well. Payton seems to be wearing thin already. Not sure I want to keep him at all.

I saw his rather barren stat line... and brief. No rebounds suggests that he wasn't playing hard - normally gets lots of boards for a PG. Haven't watched the game yet. Just wondering what gave you such a strong reaction...

 

[sunsfan88]

Marquese Chriss misses a dunk, then pushes an opposing player to the floor after losing his temper. That was the most Marquese Chriss sequence ever!

He’s starting to become more unlikable than Markieff Morris which is something I never thought would be possible.

 

[ArizonaSportsFan]

Dudley explained his side. All he knew was Chriss was on the ground still being helped up by another teammate and he shoved Rubio in an attempt to stop the fast break with a foul. He said Rubio flopped and sold it.

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That is exactly what I said to my son as I watched the replay. Only the players know if it is true. Dudley is always doing that "smart foul" thing of stopping the fast break. Looked like it was a normal foul until Rubio embellished it. Perhaps it was a combo of not expecting it and then once he was off balance he really went for the Oscar. Chriss was dumb to follow it up, but Rubio advanced back towards Dudley and I think that Chriss was embarrassed already and reacted poorly. No excuses - and I loved not having to watch Dudley for the rest of the game - but it seemed like it blew up quickly outside of Dudley trying to stop the break.

 

[ArizonaSportsFan]

He’s starting to become more unlikable than Markieff Morris which is something I never thought would be possible.

The Morri have bad character. Chriss is immature. No comparison in my mind.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Well. Payton seems to be wearing thin already. Not sure I want to keep him at all.

starting to feel like a case of you get what you pay for... and is showing why a PG hungry team would move him for next to nothing. he hasn't moved the needle that much... if at all for the team.

 

[ArizonaSportsFan]

I'm not sure it is fair to evaluate the players at the moment. Or at least get a fair evaluation. There is no rudder on this ship. We all (I think) love JJ and are excited to see him with some more polish, but to continually go 1 on 4 without correction leads me to believe that everyone has quit. Booker sets screens for others like he understands what the play is supposed to be, but it doesn't seem like other players know what is going on - especially when things break down. There were a few games there where the ball was really moving and they played well despite losses, but that seems to be forever ago.

 

[Mainstreet]

Really? This explains a little bit about your inmocent view of the JC Manning collusion Shenanigans Back In the mid 90’s.

Laettner was an AWESOME college basketball player. Great shooter, okay lifts, but just smart as all get out. And ALWAYS played big in the biggest games. In back to back years he made game winners in the Elite Eight to send Duke to the Final Four, the second which was the greatest shot at the end of the greatest college basketball game ever against Kentucky. Think he went 10-10 from the field and 10-10 from the league be that game.

And he was a MASSIVE douche.

But his athleticism, or lack thereof, kept him from ever being an impact player in the NBA. An okay role player, but that was it.

Never followed Laettner much in college and his NBA career was mostly vanilla to me.

I see you haven't given up on the Danny Manning thing. I think we wore this topic out.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Never followed Laettner much in college and his NBA career was mostly vanilla to me.

I see you haven't given up on the Danny Manning thing. I think we wore this topic out.

I know... just saying it puts things into perspective for me and actually makes me step back a little from my incredulousness at your argument on the subject.

 

[JCSunsfan]

He’s starting to become more unlikable than Markieff Morris which is something I never thought would be possible.

Its not possible.

 

[Chaplin]

starting to feel like a case of you get what you pay for... and is showing why a PG hungry team would move him for next to nothing. he hasn't moved the needle that much... if at all for the team.

Can we just reserve judgement for when he is part of a team that actually WANTS to win, and has, you know, an actual COACH who coaches like he is supposed to? This is playground crap we're seeing right now, and have been seeing since Triano's 40-point debacles.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Can we just reserve judgement for when he is part of a team that actually WANTS to win, and has, you know, an actual COACH who coaches like he is supposed to? This is playground crap we're seeing right now, and have been seeing since Triano's 40-point debacles.

OK. But we have to make a commitment to him this summer. It would be nice to make a judgement before we have to make the commitment.

 

[Chaplin]

OK. But we have to make a commitment to him this summer. It would be nice to make a judgement before we have to make the commitment.

And if you're so set on using this one game to make that judgement, why not use one of the triple-double games? You can't pick and choose and every player, doesn't matter who, is going to have bad games. It's the law of averages. Someone that WANTS Payton to fail will only point to this game, just like someone who wants him to succeed will only look at those good games. A smart evaluator will look at them all, consider the context of each game (and the team), and make the decision then.

 

[JCSunsfan]

And if you're so set on using this one game to make that judgement, why not use one of the triple-double games? You can't pick and choose and every player, doesn't matter who, is going to have bad games. It's the law of averages. Someone that WANTS Payton to fail will only point to this game, just like someone who wants him to succeed will only look at those good games. A smart evaluator will look at them all, consider the context of each game (and the team), and make the decision then.

That is fair. The whole body of work as a Sun should be taken into consideration. I would dearly love for him to succeed (even with the hair thing). I am just not seeing it. If you are making the case that we are not trying to win right now, and therefore his game shouldn't be judged on that. OK, I get that. But we still have to figure something out before we pay him.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Can we just reserve judgement for when he is part of a team that actually WANTS to win, and has, you know, an actual COACH who coaches like he is supposed to? This is playground crap we're seeing right now, and have been seeing since Triano's 40-point debacles.

We have to make a decision on him this summer though, Chap. And remember, I’m not one of the hair-haters.

To be honest, talent just stands out, IMO... especially at his position. And with him running point, there just hasn’t been a difference that I can see.

And his previous team selling him off for scrap metal says at least a little something to me as well.

 

[SirStefan32]

So, very few teams (and no bad teams) have the luxury of having talent that stands out at every position. In my mind, the question becomes whether or not he is better than anything else that may be available at a similar price. 13.6/6.6/6.4 in 30 minutes on 45% shooting from the field seems pretty good. I see a much bigger need up front, where the Suns literally do not have a single NBA-level player. Len is gone, and really not any good. Chandler is old and beat up, probably best used as a backup/ unofficial assistant coach, Chriss is awful, and Bender way too passive 80% of the time. Payton, at worst, is an adequate point guard, and he can probably be signed for $8M per year or so. If someone better is available for that much, then by all means, let's sign that player, but I just don't see that player out there right now.

 

[sunsfan88]

So, very few teams (and no bad teams) have the luxury of having talent that stands out at every position. In my mind, the question becomes whether or not he is better than anything else that may be available at a similar price. 13.6/6.6/6.4 in 30 minutes on 45% shooting from the field seems pretty good. I see a much bigger need up front, where the Suns literally do not have a single NBA-level player. Len is gone, and really not any good. Chandler is old and beat up, probably best used as a backup/ unofficial assistant coach, Chriss is awful, and Bender way too passive 80% of the time. Payton, at worst, is an adequate point guard, and he can probably be signed for $8M per year or so. If someone better is available for that much, then by all means, let's sign that player, but I just don't see that player out there right now.

That’s what Lou Williams signed for and he is a far superior in every way possible than Payton.

I’m tired of having non shooters at the PG position. In the NBA today, you need shooters and we have two in starting roles that can’t at all (Payton & Warren). We need to a PG who can spread the floor.

 

[SirStefan32]

That’s what Lou Williams signed for and he is a far superior in every way possible than Payton.

I’m tired of having non shooters at the PG position. In the NBA today, you need shooters and we have two in starting roles that can’t at all (Payton & Warren). We need to a PG who can spread the floor.

Well, I want a point guard who can shoot, and defend, and facilitate, and turn water into wine. They don't grow on trees though.

Also, Lou Williams is not available, and never was. Bringing him as an example doesn't really mean anything.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Well, I want a point guard who can shoot, and defend, and facilitate, and turn water into wine. They don't grow on trees though.

Also, Lou Williams is not available, and never was. Bringing him as an example doesn't really mean anything.

But poor shooting is a HUGE liability in a pg. That's why Ricky Rubio is not an all-star. He passes and defends fine. But teams sag off him, and they do that with Elfrid too. The complaint in Orlando was that opposing players would sag off Elfrid and onto AG which is why Gordon struggled. Elfrid doesn't have to be a GREAT shooter, just good enough to keep the opposition honest. 33% would be ok. But he is shooting HORRIBLY from outside. As a Sun, he is 4 for 20.

 

[Cheesebeef]

But poor shooting is a HUGE liability in a pg. That's why Ricky Rubio is not an all-star. He passes and defends fine. But teams sag off him, and they do that with Elfrid too. The complaint in Orlando was that opposing players would sag off Elfrid and onto AG which is why Gordon struggled. Elfrid doesn't have to be a GREAT shooter, just good enough to keep the opposition honest. 33% would be ok. But he is shooting HORRIBLY from outside. As a Sun, he is 4 for 20.

man... 4 for 20 is ugly both in percentage and in the fact that he shoots so few. PG has to be a position that can spread the floor... at least more than that.

 

[sunsfan88]

Well, I want a point guard who can shoot, and defend, and facilitate, and turn water into wine. They don't grow on trees though.

Also, Lou Williams is not available, and never was. Bringing him as an example doesn't really mean anything.

It doesn't matter, we should still be able to get a point guard that can at least shoot.

You realize that statistically Elfrid Payton is among the very worst in the league at shooting and defending right? Those are the two most basic things that most starting caliber players on good teams have and Payton can do neither.

It doesn't matter if Lou Williams was available or not, point is that's the contract he signed a month ago for an extension which set the market. Guys better than Lou Williams will get more than him and guys worse than him should get less than him. Of course you'll have bad GMs giving out terrible contracts and overpaying players like it happens every summer but doesn't mean the Suns must do that for Payton.

The next Suns PG must at least be able to shoot the ball, that should be the absolute minimum that we ask of that position. We can find one in FA or the draft for that.

 

[Mainstreet]

It doesn't matter, we should still be able to get a point guard that can at least shoot.

You realize that statistically Elfrid Payton is among the very worst in the league at shooting and defending right? Those are the two most basic things that most starting caliber players on good teams have and Payton can do neither.

It doesn't matter if Lou Williams was available or not, point is that's the contract he signed a month ago for an extension which set the market. Guys better than Lou Williams will get more than him and guys worse than him should get less than him. Of course you'll have bad GMs giving out terrible contracts and overpaying players like it happens every summer but doesn't mean the Suns must do that for Payton.

The next Suns PG must at least be able to shoot the ball, that should be the absolute minimum that we ask of that position. We can find one in FA or the draft for that.

I wouldn't mind Payton as a backup PG for the right price.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I wouldn't mind Payton as a backup PG for the right price.

But why? We already have Isaiah Canaan hanging around. Shaq Harrison is going to get a multi-year contract, and we have BK as well. We cannot afford to sink more money into a pg that is not a quality starter.

 

[Hoop Head]

Chriss and Dudley have been fined $25k a piece for the Rubio incident. I think that's excessive, especially for Dudley. Chriss seemed to escalate the issue with him running up and shoving Rubio. Chriss was embarrassed he basically air balled a dunk though.


http://www.nydailynews.com/newswire...fined-25k-jazz-rubio-shoved-article-1.3880982

 

[SirStefan32]

But why? We already have Isaiah Canaan hanging around. Shaq Harrison is going to get a multi-year contract, and we have BK as well. We cannot afford to sink more money into a pg that is not a quality starter.

Suns don't have Canaan hanging around. He was released after his injury to create a roster spot. Shaq is a minimum contract (probably non-guaranteed), and Knight is a non-factor. Suns are stuck with his salary for another two seasons no matter what. You can't rely om Canaan, Shaq, and Knight to be your PG rotation, and this is coming from a guy who really likes Canaan and Harrison.

 

[Mainstreet]

But why? We already have Isaiah Canaan hanging around. Shaq Harrison is going to get a multi-year contract, and we have BK as well. We cannot afford to sink more money into a pg that is not a quality starter.

Well in a way you answered the question.

Payton may not be a quality starter but I would not have a problem with him playing backup PG... at the right price.

The way it looks right now, this will likely be his future role with the Suns or any team. I mentioned earlier that Payton's value is a second round pick and he has not done anything to change it.

Shaq and Canaan are likely third PGs. I'm not anxious to see Knight play PG again... maybe SG.