Sun's prepared to give JJ max? CNN/SI

[lancelet's cousin]

Joe would really have to work on his dribble speed if this is true, wouldn't he? He could be a half-court PG for another team as-is. He's an off-season workhorse, so I can understand the logic a bit.

And I added the pic from the article because its funny. Does Kiki pull his $200 shirts from the bottom of the laundry basket before he comes to work?

... The Phoenix Suns are quietly putting out word that they will match any offer to restricted free agent Joe Johnson -- even a max contract worth more than $10 million. The investment would pay off over the longterm, because Johnson could be prepared to take over at point guard as Steve Nash gets older.

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FULL ARTICLE

 

[JS22]

I was actually thinking the same thing the other day. With all of the worries that we're going to suck when Nash gets a bit older and slower, everyone seems to be forgetting that we most likely HAVE our PG of the future in Joe Johnson.

Its much easier looking for a new SG / SF than a PG.

 

[arthurracoon]

I'd match a MAX contract for JJ.

 

[JS22]

I'd match a MAX contract for JJ.

Agreed.

But, if the Suns give JJ the max (which IS a possibility...I'd say about 20% probable that SOMEONE throws a max offer at him) you can say goodbye to Marion.

There is no way in hell that the Suns have THREE max players on the roster. Not to mention Nash and Q's contracts.

 

[klatk]

I'm thinking Kiki takes his $200 shirts out of the packaging right before coming to work....

 

[Errntknght]

JJ would be a fine PG in the 'triangle' ala PJ but he's nowhere near the playmaker D'Antoni's unstructured offense needs. Even if Amare is great passing from the high post, it's hard to see JJ providing the playmaking to have the super potent offense required to balance our mediocre defense. If coach Mikey were to change to mostly set plays, JJ might do okay... though I'd be skeptical til I saw it happen.

BTW, someone (probably George O') recently said they liked the idea of Amare plying his point center skills in the low post. It works for Shaq because he's a back to the basket C but Amare needs to face up to make his jumper a threat so I don't see him operating a lot in the low post. The high position does take away some of the nice cuts you see with a low post passer but you get a lot better action along the baseline so it balances out. And with three point shooters who have to be respected you still have the passing angle when they back door their man or can rub him off out high.
And the pinch post maneuver is in play, too.

It's somewhat interesting that now the Suns have a lineup that would do well with the pinch post motion offense that Frankie tried to yoke Marbury and crew with. I'm not suggesting that D'Antoni switch to that because I don't imagine he knows the offense well enough to make it a killer. (Poor FJ didn't even know it well enough to realize he didn't have the players for it.) But D'A could lift the pinch post manuever - Nash would take a little less punishment running that instead of a pick and roll and still get into the paint about as readily. And it sets up Amare for his passing role on top of that.

 

[George O'Brien]

Agreed.

But, if the Suns give JJ the max (which IS a possibility...I'd say about 20% probable that SOMEONE throws a max offer at him) you can say goodbye to Marion.

There is no way in hell that the Suns have THREE max players on the roster. Not to mention Nash and Q's contracts.

This is based on what?

I really wish people would stop using the term "max" and talk real numbers? Is JJ going to get a $90 offer? I would really doubt it. But that is not even the max.

Could he get a $60 million offer, yes, quite possibly. However, the teams with the cap space would know that such an offer would be matched.

 

[Joe Mama]

If this is true I've got to wonder how JJ and his agent feel about it. I mean the Phoenix Suns are essentially trying to scare other suitors away.

If there was a CBA in place right now it would be a whole lot easier to talk about what kind of offer JJ should get. If we are facing our ideas of his worth on the current CBA I would say he's definitely not worth the max right now. In fact I have a hard time believing he will ever be worth that much. If the Phoenix Suns give him a contract that averages say $10 million per season they better be confident that he will keep improving.

I guess I'm skeptical that JJ's value to this team is that high. When J Jax stepped in to the starting lineup in place of JJ there really wasn't much of a drop-off until they went to the bench. I'm sure there's a player or players out there making half as much as JJ will supposedly get who could strengthen that bench.

There's the real dilemma in my opinion. The Phoenix Suns will be over the salary cap or even worse... just barely under it (if it is increased as has been speculated) regardless of whether they re-sign JJ. That leaves them with just the mid-level exception to strengthen their bench and re-sign/replace Hunter. I guess they do have the draft pick also, but at #21 that's not a sure thing. It's probably worth it to the Phoenix Suns to overpay JJ a bit just so they don't have to replace them with the limited funds to do it.

 

[elindholm]

I'm sure there's a player or players out there making half as much as JJ will supposedly get who could strengthen that bench.

Bobby Simmons is often mentioned, and I suppose Flip Murray is also a possibility.

But you're right that the Suns' options for improving the team are limited. (Incidentally, it's not "even worse" to be slightly under the cap, because a team in that situation still gets its MLE, at least under the current CBA.) Even assuming Johnson is re-signed, they have only six core players (the starting lineup plus Jackson) under contract next season. Barbosa might develop into a core player but isn't there yet. So between the draft pick and exception money, somehow they need to add at least two quality players to the team, and likely three. At least one of them -- and from a practical standpoint, at least two -- has to be a big man, whether it's Hunter or someone else, and they'd sure be happier with another PG or combo guard as well.

That's why some of us are speculating about trades, especially those which would add a player to the depth chart. The foundation of the team is strong, but they don't have much maneuverability, especially if all major trades are off the table.

 

[Joe Mama]

That's why some of us are speculating about trades, especially those which would add a player to the depth chart. The foundation of the team is strong, but they don't have much maneuverability, especially if all major trades are off the table.

I see your point, but I really don't think there's any chance that the Phoenix Suns trade one of their starting lineup players unless it's JJ in a sign and trade. For that to occur I would think that he would have to come out and say, "I really don't want the Suns to match an offer, or I really want to go to this other team."

Joe Mama

 

[cly2tw]

That's why some of us are speculating about trades, especially those which would add a player to the depth chart. The foundation of the team is strong, but they don't have much maneuverability, especially if all major trades are off the table.

Don't beat around the bush, just say it, "trade Marion for bigs and depth"!

 

[elindholm]

Don't beat around the bush, just say it, "trade Marion for bigs and depth"!

Well, I tried that before...

Seriously, this is a tough off-season for the Suns. If the team doesn't do as well next season, all of their players (except probably Stoudemire) will lose some luster, and thus bring less in a trade. The number of mid-quality free agents on the market this summer seems unusually high to me, but, as always, none of the big men available figure to be difference makers. Do the Suns need PF/C help or not? It certainly seems like they do, but if the front office is committed to giving small ball another year, then they might as well spend their limited resources on additional wings and guards.

 

[JS22]

This is based on what?

I really wish people would stop using the term "max" and talk real numbers? Is JJ going to get a $90 offer? I would really doubt it. But that is not even the max.

Could he get a $60 million offer, yes, quite possibly. However, the teams with the cap space would know that such an offer would be matched.

Based on my opinion...maybe? This is a message board, we can all have opinions. And my opinion is that there is a CHANCE that some team offers JJ a max, (Highest amount possible.) or atleast near max contact. (Foyle...anyone?)

 

[JS22]

I see your point, but I really don't think there's any chance that the Phoenix Suns trade one of their starting lineup players unless it's JJ in a sign and trade. For that to occur I would think that he would have to come out and say, "I really don't want the Suns to match an offer, or I really want to go to this other team."

Joe Mama

JJ and Amare are the future of this team. If anyone gets moved, it will be Marion, imo.

For as much as it sounds like I dont, I actually like Marion. However, he is the most moveable player as of now.

 

[JCSunsfan]

JJ would be a fine PG in the 'triangle' ala PJ but he's nowhere near the playmaker D'Antoni's unstructured offense needs. Even if Amare is great passing from the high post, it's hard to see JJ providing the playmaking to have the super potent offense required to balance our mediocre defense. If coach Mikey were to change to mostly set plays, JJ might do okay... though I'd be skeptical til I saw it happen.

BTW, someone (probably George O') recently said they liked the idea of Amare plying his point center skills in the low post. It works for Shaq because he's a back to the basket C but Amare needs to face up to make his jumper a threat so I don't see him operating a lot in the low post. The high position does take away some of the nice cuts you see with a low post passer but you get a lot better action along the baseline so it balances out. And with three point shooters who have to be respected you still have the passing angle when they back door their man or can rub him off out high.
And the pinch post maneuver is in play, too.

It's somewhat interesting that now the Suns have a lineup that would do well with the pinch post motion offense that Frankie tried to yoke Marbury and crew with. I'm not suggesting that D'Antoni switch to that because I don't imagine he knows the offense well enough to make it a killer. (Poor FJ didn't even know it well enough to realize he didn't have the players for it.) But D'A could lift the pinch post manuever - Nash would take a little less punishment running that instead of a pick and roll and still get into the paint about as readily. And it sets up Amare for his passing role on top of that.

I was thinking the same thing. It would be nice to have that offensive set in the arsenal so that we could run it in certain situations (in case of injury, with selected bench rotations, or against particular teams that are especially vulnerable to it).

 

[George O'Brien]

I guess after two years of Marion trade proposals I should have more patience with them. Most proposals boil down to "let's trade Marion for a quality big man. However, it always comes down to the basic dilemna:

1. No one wants to trade a quality big man for Marion's contract. Maybe they would give up a rookie contract guy, but only if the Suns take a really really ugly contract along with it.

2. Marion is a good fit with the Suns and not as valuable to other teams. He can be a fourth or fifth offensive option on the Suns and score 20 ppg, but no one else can afford that kind of money for a fourth option offensive player who isn't a big.

3. The "best" big men the Suns could get are guys with injury issues or well onto the downward slope. The Z man is a good example.

4. Many big men are successful on slow break teams that will simply not fit the Suns. Trading Marion for a guy who can play only 20 minutes a game is not likely to improve the team. Z man once again is a good example.

(BTW, Sideways trades like getting AK 47 involve trading a guy with no history of injuries for a guy who just came off an injury shortened season tend to worry me. I'm willing to take a risk on the health of rookie like Simien who gets a $1 million a year or so, but with AK's contract I'd be a lot more nervious.)

 

[elindholm]

I'm sorry to hear that some of my posts try your patience. Fortunately, your posts are never repetitive, so we don't have the problem going the other direction.

No one is seriously advocating trading Marion for one of the league's true elite big men, because you are correct that none of them are available for that price. Similarly, it would be great if the Suns could address their inside deficiencies without giving up a key player, but that seems unlikely, in spite of your repeated (oops, sorry, make that "occasional") insistence that the correct way to build a team is through the draft.

So I guess the question is, does there exist a group of second- or third-tier big men who (a) would help the Suns and (b) could be obtained in a trade package involving Marion? I believe the answer is yes. In fact, I don't see how the point can even really be debated. Marion's selection to the Olympic, All-Star, and third All-NBA teams is indicative of his high reputation around the league. I'm sure the Suns get offers for him all the time. No, no one is offering Duncan or O'Neal, but a player wouldn't have to be of that caliber to help the Suns.

And yes, Ilgauskas is a bad idea. No argument there.

 

[cly2tw]

And really, if we want our needs filled, i.e. bigs and depth, Marion is the only and most valuable asset for doing it. Q can't really get you any big of sufficient quality and we really shouldn't trade him just one season after joining us as FA. JJ would be a base-year player even if we do a sign-n-trade. On the other hand, the disadvantage of keeping Marion with minor FA addition is that we will give it to the Spurs, and maybe even the Pistons, again in the playoffs playing Marion as the PF. And his value as SF, I'd still maintain, is not far beyond what Prince, Marshall, are. That's the dilemma. Moreover, if DA adjusts the offense to expand Amare's role, I expect Marion's stats will go down next season and become less valuable for trade. So, it might be the best timing if you sooner or later want to do it before his athletism deserts him due to aging.

 

[overseascardfan]

How about one of these trade scenarios:

1. Suns trade:
Marion and 2nd round pick

Hornets trade:
Jamal Magloire
David West
Speedy Claxton

2. Suns trade:
Marion

76ers trade:
Dalembert and 1st round pick

 

[cly2tw]

How about one of these trade scenarios:

1. Suns trade:
Marion and 2nd round pick

Hornets trade:
Jamal Magloire
David West
Speedy Claxton

2. Suns trade:
Marion

76ers trade:
Dalembert and 1st round pick

If you are thinking of doing the trade now, only #1 is feasible and I think the Hornets have cap space to absorb the salary difference. Thus, I'd change it to maybe Marion for Magloire and one future 1st rounder from them. This way, we might be using the salary difference for a future trade.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Concerning JJ and a max offer.

Declaring that they will match up to the max for JJ is brilliant. It takes all serious FA contenders out of the picture. They cannot afford to tender a max offer, wait two weeks, and then have it matched. They will lose out on any other free agents.

Leaking it now gives other teams time to go a different direction with their off-season strategy. If I was the Cleveland GM, I wouldn't even bother with JJ. He's unattainable. I would turn my sites on Michael Redd and Ray Allen.

 

[fordronken]

Concerning JJ and a max offer.

Declaring that they will match up to the max for JJ is brilliant. It takes all serious FA contenders out of the picture. They cannot afford to tender a max offer, wait two weeks, and then have it matched. They will lose out on any other free agents.

Leaking it now gives other teams time to go a different direction with their off-season strategy. If I was the Cleveland GM, I wouldn't even bother with JJ. He's unattainable. I would turn my sites on Michael Redd and Ray Allen.

And they should add in, "If anyone makes him an offer, not only will we match it, but we'll wait the full two weeks."

 

[coloradosun]

I see your point, but I really don't think there's any chance that the Phoenix Suns trade one of their starting lineup players unless it's JJ in a sign and trade. For that to occur I would think that he would have to come out and say, "I really don't want the Suns to match an offer, or I really want to go to this other team."

Joe Mama

Come on Joe they are not going to trade JJ, the article sayes he may be able to take over the point after Nash. Neither Q or Marion can bring the ball up, there are more limitations with them than Johnson. There are indications that Marion might be unhappy not so for JJ.

What is the difference of signing and trading JJ or trading Q. We in essence signed Q last year and traded him this year. I think it would look a lot worse on the franchise if they S&T JJ , then getting a player away from a worthless franchise (LA Clippers) and gave him a chance to excel. We did Q a favor and helped his stock. Again this is not anti-Q post, it is NBA is a business post and if Q is traded by the Suns I think they would accomodate his performance this year and move him to a team that could use him.

 

[coloradosun]

Concerning JJ and a max offer.

Declaring that they will match up to the max for JJ is brilliant. It takes all serious FA contenders out of the picture. They cannot afford to tender a max offer, wait two weeks, and then have it matched. They will lose out on any other free agents.

Leaking it now gives other teams time to go a different direction with their off-season strategy. If I was the Cleveland GM, I wouldn't even bother with JJ. He's unattainable. I would turn my sites on Michael Redd and Ray Allen.

It worked for Memphis last year with Swift.

 

[lancelet's cousin]

It worked for Memphis last year with Swift.

It's a terrible idea two try to manipulate the market to that degree. To announce quietly that you are prepared to match any offer, and wait the 2 weeks to do so, is a blatant attempt to re-sign a player cheaper.

People must truly think JJ and his agent are stupid. Do you think Swift is happy with the knowledge that he is getting paid less because of Memphis' tactics? If Phoenix pull's the "we're going to wait two weeks before matching any offer" route, don't be suprised if Arm Teller (JJ's highly competent agent) tells Joe to inform BC to forget about re-signing him.

I would if I were Swift and I would if I were Joe. No way a prized free agent is going to get frozen out of the market like that. Matching any offer and truthfully telling potential suitors that you are going to do so is one thing, but trying to screw a player out of millions is a bad tactic. It may have worked once (although Swift probably isn't that happy), don't expect players and agents to fall for that one again.

I doubt Bryan Colangelo would even attempt it.