Suns - Sonics Game Thread

[elindholm]

Are you saying that NONE of the turnovers by any other player turns into points?

Along with others, I have already explained why Hardaway's turnovers are more troublesome than those of his teammates.

You mean BOTH turnovers per game? Yeah, I can see how his value goes up so much if he eliminates them...

Anyone would improve his value by eliminating turnovers, but what distinguishes Hardaway's is that it would be so easy to eliminate them. (Of course, he does sometimes commit "regular" turnovers also, along with everyone else, but those are not the turnovers being discussed.)

Hardaway's two mindless turnovers per game cost the Suns six points -- one point each for the lost possession, and two points each for the automatic layup at the other end. You don't think the Suns would be a lot better off with those extra six points at the end of each game?

 

[SirStefan32]

Originally posted by Chaplin
You guys are so eager to point out Penny's turnovers that lead to baskets for the opposite team. Are you saying that NONE of the turnovers by any other player turns into points? What was it, the Clipper game where the scored something like 25 points off of turnovers?

I'm just flabbergasted that the nitpicking has gone this far. Penny Hardaway isn't even in the top 5 of the problems of the Phoenix Suns this year. In fact, I would say that he is one of the top 5 GOOD things about the Suns so far--and no amount of whining about his 2 turnovers per game is going to change that, really.

Exactly!

 

[reedykat]

I like visiting most of the Phoenix Sun boards after games to see if the remarks are consistent. This is the only board thus far that has harped on Penny's turnovers.
I just find that very interesting because the other boards are talking about his good shooting night and that awesome pass to Shawn that was responsible for the win. I have to say that Penny's defense has improved in the last games so that I would not call it suspect at all.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Originally posted by elindholm
Are you saying that NONE of the turnovers by any other player turns into points?

Along with others, I have already explained why Hardaway's turnovers are more troublesome than those of his teammates.

You mean BOTH turnovers per game? Yeah, I can see how his value goes up so much if he eliminates them...

Anyone would improve his value by eliminating turnovers, but what distinguishes Hardaway's is that it would be so easy to eliminate them. (Of course, he does sometimes commit "regular" turnovers also, along with everyone else, but those are not the turnovers being discussed.)

Hardaway's two mindless turnovers per game cost the Suns six points -- one point each for the lost possession, and two points each for the automatic layup at the other end. You don't think the Suns would be a lot better off with those extra six points at the end of each game?

it's amazing that someone can cost the Suns 6 points a game with his two mindless turnover per game when he's averging only 1.4 turnovers per contest - man he really needs to stop eliminating that on e bad play on average per contest - I mean hell - I'm sure the elimination of 1 turnover a game would clearly overshadow Joe Johnson's 2 turnovers, not to mention ten missed shots.

Jeez - Penny was the best player on the floor last night - give the guy a break already.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by cheesebeef
it's amazing that someone can cost the Suns 6 points a game with his two mindless turnover per game when he's averging only 1.4 turnovers per contest - man he really needs to stop eliminating that on e bad play on average per contest - I mean hell - I'm sure the elimination of 1 turnover a game would clearly overshadow Joe Johnson's 2 turnovers, not to mention ten missed shots.

Jeez - Penny was the best player on the floor last night - give the guy a break already.

Amen cheese...

 

[Joe Mama]

Why does everything have to be so black-and-white when it comes to Penny Hardaway?

To those of you defending Hardaway in this thread:

Hardaway has at least one and oftentimes two sloppy turnovers every game that result in easy baskets for the Phoenix Suns opponent. It also almost always happens late in the third or during the fourth quarter. Deal with it. Anybody, whether they are a Hardaway fan or not, has seen it. You're either not watching the games or you are blind.

Yes, it does happen to other players. Other guys turned the ball over. Sometimes they also make poor passes that lead to easy baskets for the opponents. I believe Joe Johnson did it in the first half of last night 's game. None of the other players do it as consistently and carelessly as Hardaway.

To those of you bashing Hardaway:

Give me a break. You would have blamed Hardaway for the loss last night if Lewis had not missed the free throws getting the Suns a chance? You must be joking. If Hardaway was shooting as poorly as Joe Johnson, Stephon Marbury, and Shawn Marion last night the Suns would have been beaten by 20 points.

I'm sure someone will point out that if he had shot just 30% like those other players he would have gone 4-12 instead of 8-12 resulting in 8 fewer points. But it's not just about the shots he made. He helped to spread the floor for the other guys. Even if you totally hate Hardaway I can't understand how anybody could deny the positive impact he had on last night's game.

To those of you who have to make this a Hardaway vs. JJ debate:

It's not. At least that's not where I was coming from. I'm fed up with JJ. I want him to succeed for the sake of the entire team, but I don't think he is a good shooting guard. At least he is a poor fit with this starting lineup. They need someone to extend and spread the defense, and he does the opposite.

Essentially the Phoenix Suns have a bunch of shooting guards that I think would be best for the team coming off the bench. I don't really like any of them as the starter or main contributor at shooting guard if this is going to be a really good team. Each of them as their good and bad attributes.

Joe Mama

 

[arthurracoon]

Originally posted by Joe Mama
Why does everything have to be so black-and-white when it comes to Penny Hardaway?

Joe Mama

AMEN!!!

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by Joe Mama
Why does everything have to be so black-and-white when it comes to Penny Hardaway?

To those of you defending Hardaway in this thread:

Hardaway has at least one and oftentimes two sloppy turnovers every game that result in easy baskets for the Phoenix Suns opponent. It also almost always happens late in the third or during the fourth quarter. Deal with it. Anybody, whether they are a Hardaway fan or not, has seen it. You're either not watching the games or you are blind.

Joe Mama

You make some good points, and I'm not arguing that you are wrong, condescending post or not. In fact, I agree that his turnovers do lead to opponents baskets, but his don't lead to more baskets any more than Stephon's or Shawn's. That's been one of our problems--too many turnovers leading to easy baskets. By the WHOLE team, not just Penny Hardaway. I just disagree with the tendancy of many on this board to point a spotlights specifically on Penny when all the other players should be afforded the same.

 

[Joe Mama]

Originally posted by Chaplin
You make some good points, and I'm not arguing that you are wrong, condescending post or not. In fact, I agree that his turnovers do lead to opponents baskets, but his don't lead to more baskets any more than Stephon's or Shawn's. That's been one of our problems--too many turnovers leading to easy baskets. By the WHOLE team, not just Penny Hardaway. I just disagree with the tendancy of many on this board to point a spotlights specifically on Penny when all the other players should be afforded the same.

I did not intend for my post to be condescending, but upon rereading it I could see how it could be taken that way. I apologize.

Marbury, JJ, Marion, and others all turn the ball over, but it really is different. I would prefer no one turned the ball over, but it's inevitable at times if the team is passing and penetrating a lot. It is, after all, will we want instead of all of this standing around. The turnovers by Hardaway that we are pointing out are different. It's always a telegraphed or lazy pass across the top.

I really do try to stay objective when I'm looking at this team. I like what Penny Hardaway has done since the first couple of weeks when he struggled off the bench. I thought it was a bad move to hand JJ starting shooting guard position when they were obviously better with Hardaway in the starting lineup last season.

I really don't feel I have singled out Hardaway. I've watched every game this season, and I am just calling it as I see it.

Joe Mama

 

[Chaplin]

Fair enough Joe.

Like always, we agree to disagree.

 

[matt_whitlock]

Penny rules, everybody else sucks, start Penny!!!

I feel like no matter what I am about to say, people are going to interpret as what I just said above, and completely disregard the value of my post. But, anyway, here goes:

There was inarguably one pass last night that got picked off at the top of the key that was kinda sloppy. I smiled when it happened, because I knew we were going to be hearing about it on here. But Penny out there, looking calm, basically just being a veteran.. that is where Penny is most valuable. For some reason people misinterpret Penny playing under control for him being lazy or disinterested.

The last 2 games, he has had a pass where he throws it to the top of the key and it gets picked off. That is true. But that is not where he "always" gets his "lazy" turnover. The thing that happens is one person says something, and then everybody jumps on the bandwagon and forgets to use real logic to form valid opinions. Somebody says Penny makes lazy passes, and every Penny hater on the board starts to look for them. Now, no matter how he turns the ball over, it is seen as lazy.

People fail to realize that Joe Johnson makes dumb passes as well. He jumps into the air with no where to pass, and ends up turning it over. That is something you are taught not to do in 7th grade. He tries to dribble through 2 defenders and loses it when he tries to pull some crazy spin move. He also makes plain lazy passes. Is anybody here trying to say that all of Joe Johnson's turnovers are off of plays of aggression? Also, when Joe consistently shoots 25% from the field, when does that become "detrimental to the team"? What happens if Joe shoots a 3, bricks it, the defense gets a long rebound, and streaks out for a fast-break?

Joe Mama, you certainly have not singled out Penny this season. In my opinion you are, without a doubt the fairest poster on the board.

The reality of it is, as a Penny fan, things are much easier for me now than at the beginning of the season. I think there were maybe 2 Penny supporters on this board back then. Now, most of the Penny haters have gone away. If Penny had been playing poorly, they'd still be here - I guaruntee you that. So, whether he throws one lazy pass a game while averaging a significantly better assist:turnover ratio than JJ, fine. Because all in all, Penny has been playing very well.

To quote the Suns announcers: "I just feel like whenever Penny shoots the ball, it's going in." and "Well get him the ball, because whenever he has it, good things have happened."

 

[matt_whitlock]

And, whether you like to admit it or not, if Penny Hardaway was not in the game, we would've lost. You can argue that his team-high points wasn't a positive for the team somehow, but the fact is this:

Nobody on this team could have thrown that lob to Shawn Marion other than Penny Hardaway.

Had he thrown it out to Marbury, he probably would've dribbled for two seconds, tried to break down his man driving right, the defense would've collapsed, he would've maybe gotten fouled, the refs wouldn't have called it, and we would've lost the game. We saw it at the end of the fourth quarter, and we've seen it this year and we saw it all year last year.

You need guts to even attempt a pass like that, and you need guts to win basketball games. Serious question: Do you think JJ would've thrown that pass?

 

[scotsman13]

personally matt i would like to see more of barbosa in the game then penny. if there is one player that i have truely seen make a differance when he is on the floor this year is is barbosa. in his limited playing time him being on the floor leads to some of the best defensive play we have seen all year from this team. i can not wait for zarko to get back to pair up with him and a super bench. another thing that barbosa does when he is on the floor for the most part is that he lets marbury rest. the more rest that marbury has the better he is going to do in the forth quarter. both jj and (even more so) penny have a hard time guarding the other teams 1's. they maybe able to creat shots for others but even with jj you have problems when the other team has a quick 1 in the game and marbury isnt. with barbosa you dont need to worry about that.

 

[Chaplin]

Penny is like our 3rd best player right now! I'd like to see more of Barbosa myself, but not at the expense of Penny. Maybe JJ or CJ (I prefer sitting JJ), but not Penny. You wanna win games, or just see the young guys play? If you sit Penny in favor of Barbosa, you will only get one of those, not both--which is really what everyone wants to see.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Penny is the least of our problems, in fact he has helped us stay in every game that we've kept competitive lately.

I'm wondering why everyone is so upset by his play?! That alley-op to Marion the other night was off the hook. No one else on our team can make that play on a consistent basis.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

Originally posted by matt_whitlock

To quote the Suns announcers: "I just feel like whenever Penny shoots the ball, it's going in." and "Well get him the ball, because whenever he has it, good things have happened."

It actually wasn't a bad post, except anytime you quote a suns announcer to favor your arguement you are just kicking yourself in the ass

 

[FrustratedSON]

Originally posted by Joe Mama
Why does everything have to be so black-and-white when it comes to Penny Hardaway?

Joe Mama

Yeah and Michael Jackson wrote a song about it... look where it got him.

 

[George O'Brien]

Why so upset?

At some point this season the SG situation will work itself out, or the Suns will be shopping for one in the off season.

The problem is that the team did not play well even before Amare got hurt. If we assume that the three headed center position is adequate, Amare is a developing star, Marion is a former all star with great athletic skills, and Marbury is an all star;

THEN THE SUNS ARE LOSING BECAUSE OF THE SHOOTING GUARD.

Or are they?

Both Penny and JJ have made some great plays and both have made some huge mistakes. Hardaway is shooting a little bit better and JJ is getting more rebounds (though not a lot). JJ is generally thought to be doing a better job on defense and Penny is making more assists per minute.

The big difference in shooting between Hardaway and JJ is that JJ shoots and misses far too many 3's. JJ shoots twice as many 3's as Penny per minute played, but hits a dismal 26.5%. Coaches talk about guys playing roles. JJ's role should NOT be to shoot 3's and if they don't do something about it THEN IT IS THE COACHES FAULT.

Let's face it, not every shooter is accurate from three point range. Cabakapa hit only 21.4% on his 3's; but his overall average is 50%. By contrast, Hardaway and Jacobsen have almost as good a shooting percentage for three as they have overall.

 

[scotsman13]

Originally posted by Chaplin
Penny is like our 3rd best player right now! I'd like to see more of Barbosa myself, but not at the expense of Penny. Maybe JJ or CJ (I prefer sitting JJ), but not Penny. You wanna win games, or just see the young guys play? If you sit Penny in favor of Barbosa, you will only get one of those, not both--which is really what everyone wants to see.

chaplin i dont want to bash anyone on this but we are already loosing games. yes i know that missing amare and zarko are making a big differance and that the new coach hasnt had much time to work with the team on the plays (yea i have seen some better spacing on the floor since he has been coach), but is there anyone out there that things that hardaways body can take 40 minutes a game? i wouldnt play scott williams that time and i sure wouldnt do it with hardaway if he is to be valueable to the team.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

Little off topic, bu seattle lost another game by 1 point tonight against denver.

This time Rashard Lewis makes a 3 point play with 14 seconds left (instead of missing 2 free throws). Denver gives it to Anthony at the top of the key out of the inbounds, he drives down the middle, and scores over 2 defenders. (Similar to Marion). Then with 5 seconds left (Same amount of time mind you) Antonio Danials gets a shot off, but it is blocked by Camby. (Missing the last opportunity on what would have been another turn over).


It has to sting loosing two games by one point back to back, with SO many similarities.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by scotsman13
chaplin i dont want to bash anyone on this but we are already loosing games. yes i know that missing amare and zarko are making a big differance and that the new coach hasnt had much time to work with the team on the plays (yea i have seen some better spacing on the floor since he has been coach), but is there anyone out there that things that hardaways body can take 40 minutes a game? i wouldnt play scott williams that time and i sure wouldnt do it with hardaway if he is to be valueable to the team.

Look, I am all for playing Barbosa, but NOT at the expense of Penny. Your hatred of Penny is telling you to say that, but from a basketball perspective, Penny is our best shooting guard right now. Barbosa "stealing" time from him will only let us continue our losing streak.

 

[George O'Brien]

I was very unhappy with the team's offense late in the game, but I'm not sure having Penny in would have made a difference due to the inept ball movement.

Marbury went away from the offensive structure and it did not work. He missed an early three, made a stupid behind the back pass in the paint that led to a turnover, and his shot on penitration was more of a prayer than a real shot. Plus Stephon missed some key free throws.

If Stephon looks at the game on his razzle dazzle tape machine, he will not be happy with his own performance.

[OOPS. These comments referred to the Blazers game. Probably.]