It's your opening statement and I just can’t understand what you mean.
You said we 'should of made the playoffs except for injury' and then proceeded to say that means we were good and shouldn't do anything. Then you kept saying we could be vying for 6th place. Except we didn't make the playoffs, and we are in 9th place (was 8th, trending lower, and Dragic was acting a fool)
Right, so if you're not top 3 in either conference you just blow it up.
That's not what I said. What I said was, if you aren't in the top 3 basically, and definitely if you don't have home field advantage in the 1st round, you almost assuredly won't go anywhere. Plus no team has ever won the championship as an 8th seed.
So when you go back to you saying 'we should of made the playoffs, except for injury...and your 'we are striving for 6th spot as realistic' and 'we had a schedule and we're a year behind now'...all those are assumptions, that aren't true, but say they were, it doesn't matter, cause we still suck enough to get blown out in the 1st round of the playoffs. This is the team you don't want the GM to make moves for to alter?
I never said if you aren't top 3 blow it up. Just if you aren't top 3 your team still has issues, and you should not be standing pat. Jerry Colangelo never stood pat. He also tried alot of guards as well. He too, was always picking up assets. Remember when $arver took over, not only did we have arugably the best team in the league, but we through also Bryan Colangelo had the most banked 1st round picks...which $arver then sold off or traded to get rid of guys like an Isaiah Thomas's of the day.
What, other than better roster moves in the offseason, have I assumed?
Once again you have lost what we talking about. The assumptions, look above.
We brought IT in because we might lose Bledsoe, and perhaps even Dragic. It was not the crazy move people thought.
Hindsight says it definitely was – look what happened last week.
We don't live in hindsight do we. Thus that's a really stupid argument. It's complaining to complain. It's your right, but it doesn't change the argument.
Plus it ONLY happened because Dragic acted like a complete BUM. Remember, we offered everything to him, we showed him by playing team we would get better, and he balked. That's him being dumb as hell and me-first.
..and again, you forgot we got a 1st round pick out of IT, and you forget that losing Dragic isn't necessarily a bad thing. I didn't want to lose him, but I didn't want to lose Nash either... there's no guarantees.
So says our W/L record, number of tech’s and team chemistry?
Once again you take my words out of context, you should know that I meant our style of play, going on 15-0 runs, and absolutely making other teams look silly. We did that more this year then last. Our talent had increased, and it showed through at times.
Right, players fault. Nothing to do with RMcD.
That's right man. You and everybody needs to get this through their heads. If you (anybody) are pissed off, for WHATEVER reason in life... that's ALL IN YOUR (anybodies) HEAD. Thus, if you act out, it's on YOU. Outside influences are NOT a valid excuse to act like a fool, sulk, or whatever. That's childish behavior, which is now standard and applauded as unavoidable in the mess that is America today. The simple fact is, it doesn't matter what McD did, it was ALL DRAGIC and ALL IT and ALL Plumlee who decided to be babies, though of course Plumlee expressed it internally (supposedly) so don't apply it nearly as much as say Dragic of course. So yes, it IS all on them. That is not debatable. It's reality.
I’m assuming only that we wouldn’t be worse. Losing Frye was a big deal though so perhaps we would have been but, with Len, a better Markieff and a full season of Bledsoe alongside him I don't think it's crazy to think otherwise (depending on how important Frye was to Dragic's performance of course).
You're basically saying that IT running around winning games for us in the 4th quarter, making people look like fools at times (which he did) was bad for us. IT single handedly won games for us. Again this goes back to the other thing, like it's IT's fault that Dragic sulked. Or McD's and IT's. Also you are assuming that chemistry was going to be as good as last year. Chemistry comes and goes, as we can see. Even without IT, chemistry might not have been the same, and Dragic STILL might even have forced his way out, the same way I might add.
Remember we offered to trade IT, but that didn't console him. That would of brought back the situation last year that fostered the 'chemistry'. Dragic didn't care. We offered to give him the max, then didn't console him. He was acting like a big baby. The person you should be blaming 99.9 percent for Dragic being traded...is...DRAGIC.
Please tell me you can see why Dragic did what he did?
I can see and understand his frustration, but see 'why he did what he did'. No, because you seem to think there is some excuse worthy of acting like that. There isn't. That's the difference. There is no excuse. I can understand his frustration.
Let me put it another way. It's a great example, and once you understand it, maybe you'll see the light. Funny thing is, the day Dragic acted like a primaddonna, it was literally on the front page of the sports (or maybe the day earlier).
Larry Fitzgerald.
He too, wasn't used how he wanted.
He could of asked for a trade, he could of held fast to his contract.
Instead he WAS team first, and what did he do? Not only did he not force his way out, acting like a child, but took a massive paycut.
THAT IS TEAM. THAT IS HOW SOMEONE CAN ACT.
Now contrast that to Dragic. He had even MORE reason to be like Dragic, but it would not of been acceptable even for him.
'Nuff said.
Didn’t he slam dunk that one in the offseason.
Don't know what you mean, but we still got Warren, a piece (Ennis) that went for Knight, a 1st round pick (for IT), traded for Wright, and capspace.
What part of we didn’t suck last year isn’t comprehendible?
We sucked enough not to make the playoffs. We didn't...suck...suck. But when you don't make the playoffs, then you do, in a way, suck. What part of that can't you get? We are a non-playoff team, and again, if you aren't competing for championships, or in the mix, and we weren't, then yes, you do suck. Not suck-suck...but still suck.
I could pretty much end the discussion right there.
You have a faulty philosophy. You believe it's ok that people act a fool if someone riles them up. I believe a person that can get riled up, like Dragic, is a fool. You see you believe it's a valid response. I believe Dragic has a messed up head for doing so, at least at that moment. You see you still want to excuse...inexcusable behavior. I understand fully that matchbook was opened by McD, but it was still Dragic who struck the match. Thus it's not McD's fault for putting the matchbook out there, it's Dragic's fault for striking it. Think about it.
And this is where I see that you’re confused – you’ve clearly not understood under what assumption (the one and only assumption I have made in all of this) I said he might have come here.
I didn't misunderstand. You basically chained together, right after another, that if we didn't have IT, and Bledsoe didn't get injured, we would of been in a position to get Stoudamire.
I said, that's a pipe dream on many levels, because we were never as good as you assume, and even if we were, we weren't good enough for Stoudamire to come here because he wants a championship, and striving for 6th, is way too low for that (except under certain circumstances, which didn't apply to us, which did for Dallas).
I’m actually pretty neutral about the whole thing as Dragic has gone to a good situation and will thrive when Bosh plays, I was slightly nervous about paying him big $ (but if he'd had this season to play without IT, with Bledsoe, an improved Markieff and Len...) and we can finally see Warren and Goodwin play. Of course, we could have had kept Dragic and seen the rookies play but that was beyond the ability of the FO apparently.
I don't know about neutral, you keep making excuses for Dragic, when he clearly was the instigator. But it's cool. Meanwhile it's right to be potentially nervous about paying him. See that's another good reason why we moved him, and it was said as such in the press conference, and alluded to before. We want a young core to grow together. I like the Suns were willing to keep Dragic, but Dragic would have none of it.
Not according to the drama that’s unfolded. I agree with you that they can play the market well.
That is 1/2 of the deal. They are fully competent on that. But you see, I'm not going to mark down very much because Dragic went insane, especially after telling our guys he was happy and wanted a few days earlier. Did you catch that one? We went to him a few days before he went insane, and told him we'd give him the max and everything seemed fine.
Then he went apecrap on us. So it seems to me one of two things happened.
1. Either he wasn't honest with us, at all, until he blew up. (again that's on him)
2. His agent put words in his head, the me-first stuff, and he bought it. (again that's ultimately on him because he listened to his agent).
Here we go again – the genius of RMcD. Let’s just ignore how we got to this situation in the first place.
Except the 'first place' is the key thing. You think it's valid that the chain starts with McD's moves. I don't. That's apologetic for horrible behavior. The true first place in the situation is that Dragic blew up. Everyone else was doing their jobs, under fair logic. Dragic also proved he couldn't be bothered for 3 months. That the first sign of adversity, HE HIMSELF said it 'wasn't working and we aren't getting better'. Meaning HE HIMSELF threw in the towel at first blush. So if you notice, everything that actually collapsed, that created the situation, was all in Dragic's head. That's what I keep saying.
It wasn't McD's mind or will that faltered, it was Dragic's.
You say this in defence of trading away the pick…
I'm not sure what you mean. But what I mean, simply is that we gave up one (along with other things), secured an asset, yet also picked up three more first round picks, one with protection pretty similar to the Lakers pick, and another one without any protection yet far out in the future. That's a net gain.
You are assuming again that the Lakers pick is going to be great.
That isn't an assumption. I said it MAY be, I didn't say it WILL be. I was saying what we got back has the same shot as of now for the Lakers to be a great pick. Thus a swap of one for another shouldn't be viewed negatively. We traded one mystery box for another one. Actually we received three, but we know one won't be that good pick spot wise, another one may be as it is protected similarly to the Lakers pick and it too can become fully unprotected at some point, and one has a chance to be as good as the Lakers pick, even better because it is so far out in the future AND is fully unprotected.
I don’t think I am, but if I was pot meet kettle.
Except I wasn't, and it's very clear I wasn't.
No – we actually were a good team last year.
Good teams make playoffs, and make playoffs with a significant seed with homecourt.
Like I said, we sucked. Not suck-suck, but sucked enough to not only fail to make the playoffs, but simply making the playoffs doesn't mean you are good and have a legitimate shot. You could say we were decent, but we weren't 'good'. Again if you don't have home field in the 1st round, you don't have a shot. You are just filler for those that do. So we weren't even good enough to be the filler teams for the real playoff teams.
It had some of the best Chemistry ever seen – that is indeed something.
Except it didn't even allow us to make the playoffs, and you again are assuming it would carry over, when the biggest person you say caused it, acted like a baby and didn't want it to continue when offered. To think such a flaky an unreliable guy would continue to be the catalyst is a stretch.
Have you seen the age of our starting five? We are in full rebuild mode again.
What you haven't realized, with all do respect, is that even last year, and this year with Dragic, and even if we didn't get IT, is that WE STILL WERE AND NEVER LEFT REBUILD MODE.
They've said it over and over again. We are and never left, and when we leave is determined when we get actual stars and enough quality prospects to grow together.
You thought we had left, I fully recognize, that we never did, just like the Suns FO.
That's why I keep saying they are always looking to move the older, higher priced players out the door, so they can get something better and younger.
They even said it yesterday...that we THINK we are getting close to the core of the next good Suns team...but we won't stop until we have it right.
That means, we never left, and we aren't going to anytime soon. Hate to tell you that, but that's the truth, and that's what are FO SHOULD be doing.
Did we or did we not win 48 games last year with excellent team chemistry lead by a 3rd team all NBA player who's backcourt partner was injured for half the season?
We did and it doesn't mean we are good. It means we don't suck-suck. It means we were a decent rebuilding team. I even agree with you that looking forward before the season, 6th spot was reasonable to be a goal. But even if we achieved that, we wouldn't be a good team, we'd of ended up better then we were last year, but we'd still be a rebuilding team, that needed more pieces and more assets to take the next step...because there's even a step or two AFTER the next step.
It’s morbid curiosity right now – I loved it positively last year.
LOL
Yep. Because again looking at facts.
He played well for us.
He won us games.
He was also in demand, just like Dragic was.
He garnered a 1st round pick.
He wasn't a bad selection because it sent Dragic off to seek mental meds for his craziness because he mentally couldn't handle it. (of course I'm exaggerating, but I keep trying to hammer home the point, that if it's something in your head that causes you to do something, that means it's on you, because your head is your head, and the problems within it, are your problems)...which of course then came out and became a problem for the Suns, but only because one person couldn't hold their crap.
I really haven’t but I won’t back down from saying it starts with him.
Except it really starts with players being too big for the Suns, letting their ego or agent get to their head and their head not being able to handle it. That's the weak point of everything. Not McD.
Tell that to Dallas, who have Stoudemire.
OK, I'm sorry, let me reiterate. A 6th seed for most teams isn't enough for Amare. A 6th seed from a team who recently won a championship, and fairly recently added Rajon Rondo, that also happens to be a veteran team, might and did make sense for Stoudamire. Even if we had equal records, he would of went with Dallas almost assuredly.
Simple there's two types of propaganda. White propaganda and Black propaganda. You see what you normally think of as propaganda, say the Soviet Union Communist whatever...the normal type, is black. But there is also WHITE propaganda. Those would be the fluff pieces that influence someone mindset just like black propaganda. Both are nefarious to a point, but one is done in a good way (though it's not really good), and one is done in a bad way.
Fluff pieces that are meant to make everything seem hunky-dory and all that are pieces of White propaganda. They still influence your perception beyond where reality should take it. They are still 'manipulating' you. Even if it's not really a big deal. Hype can be another form of 'white propaganda'. It's still a lie, it's still influencing people the way it shouldn't be.
I was simply pointing out, that while it wasn't a big deal, and it was nice, it still was a piece of white propaganda, so you have to put that in it's proper place. Sports are HUGE with white propaganda. It's just important to know they are still pulling your chain a bit, so don't take what they say...too seriously. You were.
Wtf. So you may as well have sh!tty chemistry because that will help you improve as a team.
I didn't say that. It's just a real realization that since we weren't good enough to win the championship, that we weren't good enough to compete for a top playoff spot, and we weren't even good enough to make the playoffs, we were going to have to make changes to personnel, and those personnel changes would effect chemistry.
So yes, you are lauding that basically the chemistry of a rebuilding team, that can't even make the playoffs, was more important than for a GM to realize all of this, and keep making moves to become a contender.
Not officially, no, but beginning of last year we were at square one and guess where we are today.
We're not at square one. Again, you keep thinking that because of last year we were out of rebuilding mode, we never left, and I'm sorry somehow you were fooled into thinking so. We won 48 games, and didn't make the playoffs. We were never out of rebuilding mode, and they never said it. They have consistently said what they said yesterday. If anything, to THEM, they state they now THINK they are CLOSER. So in fact, at least according to them, they feel we are a step closer, even if that means for this year, for the rest of the season, our record might indicate otherwise.
Acquiring a point guard and drafting a point guard when you already have two point guards is perfectly good reason to blame RMcD.
Not really. Because if we drafted Joe Blow because he WASN'T a guard, would we have been able to trade him and get Knight? Nope, because Kidd wanted Ennis specifically in the trade. We don't get Knight, and the whole idiocy of Dragic is much more painful.
We also don't know if Dragic would of stayed even without IT. Look at how crazy he handled it. Again, not being truthful with our Front Office, only to blow them out of the water PUBLICLY a day or two later. Again with Larry Fitz's situation probably sitting on the front page that day or a day earlier when Dragic went crazy. It's a bit like seeing something violent, and then instead of wanting calmness, you go out and be violent. Or seeing a store get robbed and hearing the owner say it might put him out of business, and then when he isn't looking, you stealing something.
How to act was right in Dragic's face, and he did 180 degrees opposite, it's just really, really weird and makes his selfish moves look even worse.
You think that’s a fair analogy?
Why not? It shows one of them could handle being upset and not speak out. If anything it's unfair to Plumlee. Because Plumlee was guaranteed passed up for Len. He lost his spot and directly became a backup. We also likely weren't going to sign him.
Dragic meanwhile, not only has his history of being loved by the Suns, since we originally bought his contract out from Europe so he could come here....
To giving him that deal and being a bigger person to admit a mistake in trading him to woo him to come back...
To publicly backing him whenever he was snubbed for all-star or whatever...
To publicly stating we wanted him back...
To doing what he wanted because HE HIMSELF originally wanted 'more playmakers'..
To telling him that we would give him the max
To going and getting his kid brother
All we asked like before last year, was that he be a team player.
Remember, ANY of the three could of played shooting guard. We didn't come in thinking so and so would play PG and so and so would play SG. We had who we would try first, but ultimately it went down to WHO PLAYED BETTER WHERE and WHO FIT.
As it turned out. IT was better off the bench. Bledsoe was the better PG, and Goran was our best SG.
Again, we now know he questioned the Bledsoe situation last year...so even with all that good chemistry, the one you say was the catalyst, was secretly questioning that role...
Of course that role ended up in the 48 games and 23 game improvement. Yet he questioned again.
So that again shows that last year wasn't all hunky dory like the white propaganda said...doesn't it.
Yes it is – very. Our franchise does not come out of this in a positive light.
...and again it ONLY doesn't because Dragic acted like a fool.
You see signing IT isn't like pushing a snowball down a mountain.
You sadly think it is 'cause and effect'. You forget the human element. Which says that a sane human mind can determine how they act. They can act with class, like Larry Fitzgerald, or act like a selfish moron like Dragic. But it isn't like striking a match. It's people with human minds, capable of interceding. Dragic decided he wanted to be a fool and throw us under the bus, thus it is not McD...it is SOLELY on Dragic.
Let me know which other GM’s offsided their best player by getting 2 others to do his job and then relegate their said best player because it was assumed he would complain the least. That is management incompetence defined.
Each situation is different, but I see plenty of moron players acting like babies, trying to force their will over the team, and the GM has to respond.
Everyone keeps bringing up the bunk point, that 'we assumed and taken advantage of Dragic'. No...
That's the morons thinking from an false ego perspective. As if the 'ego' is the most important thing running everything.
The simple fact is on ANY TEAM, the TEAM comes first. Everytime. If the players don't understand that, then don't play. From Little League to professional sports, there is a way a TEAM plays. If it isn't like that, then you don't really have a TEAM.
Now in professional sports, we've gotten used to players breaking the team aspect. That doesn't mean it's right. That doesn't mean suddenly when a person acts a fool because he is too mentally unstable, that it is somehow the GM or leader of the TEAM's fault that said player is mentally unstable and throws the team under the bus.
I dare say hindsight suggests otherwise.
Well we still got Knight and a 1st round pick by doing what we shouldn't of done. Plus we got out of a deal that even you say you were worried about.
Plus we don't live in hindsight.
Plus as a GM it's THEIR job to do stuff. You and I aren't sitting there. We don't have to do anything. They do.
Besides, if you want to play the hindsight game, perhaps Dragic blows his knee out, and Knight becomes an all-star, perhaps that 1st round pick will give us our next Michael Finley, and the capspace allows us to sign Love. Yes this isn't going to happen...but hindsight is not A versus B. It can be many points at which you can look back at hindsight, so I wouldn't necessarily use the hindsight card on this...just yet.
As always, have a good day
