Suns trade rumors

[Phrazbit]

If Len was getting pulled every time he screwed up he would only be in for about 1 minute a game. Whining about his playing time when he has been absolutely dreadful so far is inane.

 

[Errntknght]

I think its been established that Len doesn't play well in short stretches after sitting on the bench for a half hour or so. IMO, its time to try something else with him. Putting him in to start games has too many overtones but what about starting him in the third quarter - after a lengthy warmup in the dressing room, doing something that doesn't stress his ankles? The trainers would almost certainly applaud that even if they believe he shouldn't play longer stretches at a time. Heck, maybe they should really jump outside the box and have him skip the pregame warmup since he's not going to play in the first half. If the length of his stints (short of exhaustion) is not the issue then let him play the same amount of time but in fewer, longer stretches.

Its almost a certainty that Alex has the attributes and talent to contribute at this level and the trick is get the light in his head to turn on.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I think its been established that Len doesn't play well in short stretches after sitting on the bench for a half hour or so. IMO, its time to try something else with him. Putting him in to start games has too many overtones but what about starting him in the third quarter - after a lengthy warmup in the dressing room, doing something that doesn't stress his ankles? The trainers would almost certainly applaud that even if they believe he shouldn't play longer stretches at a time. Heck, maybe they should really jump outside the box and have him skip the pregame warmup since he's not going to play in the first half. If the length of his stints (short of exhaustion) is not the issue then let him play the same amount of time but in fewer, longer stretches.

Its almost a certainty that Alex has the attributes and talent to contribute at this level and the trick is get the light in his head to turn on.

I too thin Len will be a good player, but I do not think he is ready to start. Give him a summer league and training camp.

 

[Phrazbit]

Its a lot more likely that Len is simply not at all ready for the NBA than the idea that making him a starter will suddenly fix him. That would send a really bad message to the entire team, not to mention be grossly unfair to Plumlee.

Its not at all certain that Len has the talent and attributes to contribute at this level. Again, Len was not one of the best centers in his conference in college, if he was mediocre in the ACC then it makes sense that he will likely suck in the NBA until his game improves significantly.

And unlike what some people seem to insist, guys CAN get better being brought along slowly and learning primarily in practice. Teams dont need to shove ****ty players on the court in the hope they learn from it, especially when they are as raw as Len is.

 

[Errntknght]

Geez, since I'm suggesting Len plays fewer, longer stints how do you translate that to being a starter?

Do you see improving with these short bits on the floor? I don't and I watched a couple of extended videos from his college games where he looked much more relaxed and fluid. Why not try something different to see if he can get back to that. Granted he's got a lot of development ahead - years worth - but getting him more comfortable on the floor would be a good start.

He's probably used to taking the floor immediately after warming up and having him start his stints with the third quarter would be a way of trying that out, right? I doubt if Len starting the third Q every third game or so would cause Plumlee to react as vehemently as you are. Actually, it might get him back to playing more assertively... a nice little bonus.

 

[BC867]

Geez, since I'm suggesting Len plays fewer, longer stints how do you translate that to being a starter?

Do you see improving with these short bits on the floor? I don't and I watched a couple of extended videos from his college games where he looked much more relaxed and fluid. Why not try something different to see if he can get back to that. Granted he's got a lot of development ahead - years worth - but getting him more comfortable on the floor would be a good start.

He's probably used to taking the floor immediately after warming up and having him start his stints with the third quarter would be a way of trying that out, right? I doubt if Len starting the third Q every third game or so would cause Plumlee to react as vehemently as you are. Actually, it might get him back to playing more assertively... a nice little bonus.

Playing into Len's attributes sounds like a good approach. For his psyche. For his stamina. For his ankles. For his ability to do his best as he develops.

And, you're right, for the few minutes that Plumlee is a part of the starting rotation in the 1st and 3rd quarters (and hardly ever finishing), it shouldn't be a slight to him. And make it easier for him to rebuild his confidence.

I love Jeff's coaching attitude and style, but I wonder how much of a "think outside the box" Head Coach he can be. If not much, he wouldn't be alone.

 

[Catlover]

I think its been established that Len doesn't play well in short stretches after sitting on the bench for a half hour or so. IMO, its time to try something else with him. Putting him in to start games has too many overtones but what about starting him in the third quarter - after a lengthy warmup in the dressing room, doing something that doesn't stress his ankles? The trainers would almost certainly applaud that even if they believe he shouldn't play longer stretches at a time. Heck, maybe they should really jump outside the box and have him skip the pregame warmup since he's not going to play in the first half. If the length of his stints (short of exhaustion) is not the issue then let him play the same amount of time but in fewer, longer stretches.

Its almost a certainty that Alex has the attributes and talent to contribute at this level and the trick is get the light in his head to turn on.

I was unaware that had been established. I just thought he didn't play very well yet because he simply wasn't ready for the NBA game yet. He was away from the game for most of 10 months, I see no reason to rush him through the process. It seems to me that rookies that miss the preseason rarely get up to speed during the season. Patience sounds like a reasonable approach to me.

 

[Catlover]

Playing into Len's attributes sounds like a good approach. For his psyche. For his stamina. For his ankles. For his ability to do his best as he develops.

And, you're right, for the few minutes that Plumlee is a part of the starting rotation in the 1st and 3rd quarters (and hardly ever finishing), it shouldn't be a slight to him. And make it easier for him to rebuild his confidence.

I love Jeff's coaching attitude and style, but I wonder how much of a "think outside the box" Head Coach he can be. If not much, he wouldn't be alone.

Thinking outside the box is highly overrated. We don't know very much about Jeff. All we really know about Jeff the coach is that he took a collection of players that were expected to be one of the worst teams ever and he has them in the thick of a playoff race despite losing arguably their most talented player for a large chunk of the season. Whether he's thinking inside the box or outside the box, he at least appears to be thinking.

I suspect if there was a simple approach to turning Len overnight into a solid rotational player, Jeff and company would have found it. But maybe you guys are right. Perhaps lack of actual facts and distance from the situation has revealed a hidden truth.

 

[Mainstreet]

Everybody seems to forget Len is only 20. I didn't have my game together at that age making the big bucks.

Also Archie Goodwin should be a star at 19.

 

[Errntknght]

I had great expectations for Hornacek as soon as he was named coach - having followed his career fairly closely, I was sure he was going to a good coach and the only question was whether he would be great. At the start of the year when everyone was tripping over themselves predicting a disastrous season I was one of the very few saying I was much more fearful of us being too good to get a high draft pick than being historically bad, simply because of Jeff getting the guys to play as a team.

I still have great expectations for Jeff and agree that he's done a wonderful job overall, but I still disagree with a few things that he's has done and is doing. I loved it when he decided that Dragic and Bledsoe could and would play together rather than go with a traditional lineup - outside that particular box, if you will.

I have to admit I'm disappointed in the response to my posts on this subject - no one is even trying to argue against the idea I advanced. Even the arguments against the wild extrapolations of what I actually said aren't very interesting... nothing new there.

As to the value of thinking outside the box, I guess it depends on where you're coming from. In my field of mathematics nothing much of interest ever happens until someone thinks outside the box - would that I were better at it. I used the expression ironically because to me altering Len's schedule of PT is the daintiest of steps outside it, if even that.

 

[asudevil83]

Suns fans are entirely too impatient when when it comes to rookies. I feel like we give a player their rookie season and thats it. If they arent the next Amare then adios....and if they dont look like the next Nash/KJ/Kidd then they should be released.

the LAST pick that suns fans as a community embraced and followed their development from raw talent was Amare. that was 11 years ago, and i believe that their are a few of you who dominate this board who have not actively rooted for the success of any drafted rookie since.

and as a community of fans (here and on other boards) we are so impatient with our rookies that we cannot even be happy for them. Either A.) they find success elsewhere or B.) we forget how bad they were when they were 1st/2nd year players, and act like we rooted for them from the beginning.

 

[sunsfan88]

Its not because we hate rookies, its because all our 1st rd rookies have sucked since Amare.

Alando Tucker, Robin Lopez, Earl Clark, and Kendall Marshall. Kieff is the only one that turned into a good player for us.

Both Lopez and Dragic had to leave PHX to learn how to play at a high level in the basketball and Lopez has finally turned himself into a decent C and Dragic turned himself into a star player.

 

[Phrazbit]

Our struggles with drafting is a bit overblown. We traded away a ton of picks and we were frequently picking at the ass end of the draft. That right there severely limits your potential return.

Lopez has had (even with the Suns) a career roughly along what you'd expect from a mid 1st round center. Dragic was a 2nd round steal, even before he went to Houston and IMO his struggles pre-trade were more about how awful our 2nd unit around him was. Tucker the 29th pick, no shock he flopped. Barbosa was another heist at the end of the 1st. Morris has panned out as a solid pick for that slot. Clark was a legit dud.

What really screwed us was giving away so many picks, our actual return on the picks we kept was pretty solid given their draft slots.

 

[slinslin]

and as a community of fans (here and on other boards) we are so impatient with our rookies that we cannot even be happy for them. Either A.) they find success elsewhere or B.) we forget how bad they were when they were 1st/2nd year players, and act like we rooted for them from the beginning.

Suns fans apparently need scapegoats and are absolutely ignorant to this.

2 years ago it was Lopez although he put up the same or even better number on a per minute basis than Gortat in minutes played with Nash and better numbers without Nash.
He left and had success.

Last year it was Kendall Marshall, he left and is close to leading the league in assists and 3pt%.
(I said last year already that Marshall could lead the league in assists as a starter and people on here laughed at it, yet he started 3 times for us and averaged 12 or so).
We dropped him after his rookie season and he has a lot of success for the Lakers, stupid.

 

[elindholm]

Suns fans apparently need scapegoats and are absolutely ignorant to this.

2 years ago it was Lopez although he put up the same or even better number on a per minute basis than Gortat in minutes played with Nash and better numbers without Nash.
He left and had success.

Last year it was Kendall Marshall, he left and is close to leading the league in assists and 3pt%.

I just want to be sure I understand what you're saying. It's the fault of Suns fans that these players were given away too soon?

 

[slinslin]

it plays a part in it

 

[Chaplin]

it plays a part in it

LOL!! How so? Just when we think you can't get any further into the deep end, you fall off the waterfall.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Lance Blanks was visiting the Suns board here for guidance on what he should do with Robin Lopez. And new GM Ryan McDonough decided to check the local Suns boards to see if his 5 years of scouting on Kendall Marshall would hold up.

Actually, at wouldn't be surprised at the first one.

Kendall Marshall has the ability to lead the league in assists IF he can get the playing time. He was not going to get that playing time here with Goran and Bled in the fold. If his shooting holds up, that will be what is necessary for him to finally break into more minutes outside stretches of catastrophic injuries to other teammates.

With regard to Lopez, big men develop slower. We had Gortat and we had Lopez and Robin wanted to go somewhere to start. We had to make a choice. We did not give up on Robin, we chose Marcin over him. There is a difference.

It would be absolutely be foolish to give up on Len within the next 2-3 years. He is young and has the ability. Patience is necessary. BUT, if we get another player that clearly supercedes him, then it might be appropriate to move him.

 

[elindholm]

I think the Suns did give up prematurely on Lopez, as I said consistently in the months leading up to his departure. But I think it's very unlikely that what takes place on a fan message board has any impact on the personnel moves an NBA front office makes. At least, I hope it's unlikely.

 

[slinslin]

LOL!! How so? Just when we think you can't get any further into the deep end, you fall off the waterfall.

You are fooling yourself if you think that NBA team with professional marketing teams dont keep track of fan opinions and let public opinion affect their evaluations.

Heck the Suns have annual season ticket holder meetings and for the last couple years tried everything to appease fans while sucking.

It is not coincidence that most players are traded/leaving or start playing worse when the public starts to call for their heads eg Kidd, Amare, Lopez, Marshall and so on.

You are a fool if you think the Suns organisation does not notice when fans, radio hosts of their flagship station and whoever else is consistently bashing a player to no end. Ultimately that means little but plays a part in player evaluation for sure.

You think the Suns were not reluctant to give up Dudley before because he was a fan favorite? Or even Nash is a good example since it would have been wise to trade him 3 years earlier.

 

[Catlover]

Lance Blanks was visiting the Suns board here for guidance on what he should do with Robin Lopez. And new GM Ryan McDonough decided to check the local Suns boards to see if his 5 years of scouting on Kendall Marshall would hold up.

Actually, at wouldn't be surprised at the first one.

Kendall Marshall has the ability to lead the league in assists IF he can get the playing time. He was not going to get that playing time here with Goran and Bled in the fold. If his shooting holds up, that will be what is necessary for him to finally break into more minutes outside stretches of catastrophic injuries to other teammates.

With regard to Lopez, big men develop slower. We had Gortat and we had Lopez and Robin wanted to go somewhere to start. We had to make a choice. We did not give up on Robin, we chose Marcin over him. There is a difference.

It would be absolutely be foolish to give up on Len within the next 2-3 years. He is young and has the ability. Patience is necessary. BUT, if we get another player that clearly supercedes him, then it might be appropriate to move him.

I'm not even sure that a 2-3 year time frame is reasonable. He came out of college with a lot less experience than Robin Lopez and we all see how long it took Robin just to reach his current level of adequacy. I think Len has more potential but I don't think he's as far along at this same age as Robin was and his injury is likely to slow the process. Keep in mind he didn't even start playing basketball casually until his early teens. I'm hoping he'll start showing some real value next season but I wouldn't be surprised to see him struggle for the next 3 or 4 years. I don't agree with whatshisname's claim about fans and trades but I do believe that fan expectations occasionally impact a players career path.

 

[95pro]

Robin was getting better...then the back injury. Now he's on the rise again.

 

[sunsfan88]

Kendall Marshall could lead the league in assists all he wants but he won't ever do that on a winning team.

Marshall is the kinda guy who will put up great numbers on bad teams in the NBA and become non factor on winning teams.

He still barely averages 9 pts a game despite the fact that he has authority to stat pad on the Lakers. And he's still a piss poor defender and he can't aggressively get to the FT line either.

 

[Neo]

Kendall Marshall could lead the league in assists all he wants but he won't ever do that on a winning team.

Marshall is the kinda guy who will put up great numbers on bad teams in the NBA and become non factor on winning teams.

He still barely averages 9 pts a game despite the fact that he has authority to stat pad on the Lakers. And he's still a piss poor defender and he can't aggressively get to the FT line either.

Yeah, but all of those deficiencies are Chalpin and Elindhom's fault because they were not nice to him on a message board, rattling his confidence. Then they caused him to traded by not appreciating him sufficiently. All that critisism forced the Wizards to waive him.

I find it interesting that his biggest supporter on this board doesn't bring up his +/-, even though that has been his favorite argument in the past.

 

[Errntknght]

I can't really imagine that teams go around reading message boards but they do get fan feedback on the players and the message boards probably mirror what they are hearing.

I have to admit I was happy to see the last of Lopez. I'm not sure it was slow development because the second half of his second year he played as well as he ever has. And then the next year he was pitiiful again. After about 25 games we got Gortat and Robin became even more erratic as a backup. New Orleans was a good place for him - he had no competition for the C slot but they had excellent rebounding at PF (Davis) and SF (Aminu - out rebounded Robin by a good margin).