Suns updates and discussion for the 2023-24 season

[Hoop Head]

Yeah I’m don’t buy this. He wanted to play for a contender. He got his wish of adding two stars. It isn’t working. But he’s not going to demand a trade after he got what he wanted. If you take away those stars and they aren’t a contender Booker will want out. He’s not here for another rebuild imo.

We don't know that he wanted 2 stars, especially these 2 stars. He's been spotted front row at a few Brooklyn Nets games since the KD trade went down. I think he was fine with the KD if it made us better but it hasn't and the same goes for Beal. It hasn't worked. Either retool around Booker or send him off too. I'd like to keep him but we may not be in position to do so.

 

[Hoop Head]

Nurk does things better than Ayton but there is zero doubt our paint has become a turnstile with him. He has made us worse defensively. Nobody worries about the paint with Nurk in there. He is definitely part of why this team is worse defensively.

We allow 1 more point in the paint than we did last year. We were 10th in points per game allowed in the paint last season and 16th now. Now we allow 50.3 vs 49.1 last season. If our perimeter defense were better then I get the feeling we'd allow less. Our perimeter D is noticeably worse now. There is no metric I've seen that shows Ayton was far superior to Nurkic.

Stats from

NBA Stats - NBA Team Opponent Points in Paint per Game | TeamRankings.com

NBA opponent points in paint per game, by team.

www.teamrankings.com

 

[Covert Rain]

We allow 1 more point in the paint than we did last year. We were 10th in points per game allowed in the paint last season and 16th now. Now we allow 50.3 vs 49.1 last season. If our perimeter defense were better then I get the feeling we'd allow less. Our perimeter D is noticeably worse now. There is no metric I've seen that shows Ayton was far superior to Nurkic.

A drop from Top 10 which we were actually hovering around number 5 for a chunk of the season to number 15 (we were at one point #22) is a pretty big drop off by any measure. The comparison between teams and where we rank is more indicative than the actual number. Our overall DEF rating is 17 verses last year in which we are top 10. Last year from 2 Ft in Defense giving up 65.1% vs Last year 63.2%. It's not just about protecting the paint. Having a defensive center anchors what you do on defense. We were also top 10 defensive rebounding team last year and this year middle of the pack.

I am not putting it all on Nurk but he is definitely part of the reason why. As much as I like what he does offensively and with his passing he frustrates me on the other end.

 

[Chaplin]

Wild.

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media

 

[Covert Rain]

By the way, here is some other interesting stats about our paint play this year verses last year.

Wild.

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media

I just looked it up. Kevin Durant is #11 in the NBA scoring in the 4th quarter (7.0 Per or 210 Points scored) and the only Suns player in the top 25.

Who Has Scored The Most 4th-quarter Points This Season | StatMuse

I don't have anything for this season, but DeMar DeRozan put up the most points in the fourth quarter in 2023-24, with 550 points.

www.statmuse.com

Devin Booker has averaged 6.2 points or 170 Points scored in the fourth quarter this season. Doesn't sound like much difference but it doesn't even get him in the top 25 players (Book is 27th) in the NBA in the 4th quarter. He has scored 40 points less than Durant despite the time Durant missed in the 4th. Book also only turned the ball over 22 times all season long last year in the 4th quarter with a +23 +\-. This season? He is already at 25 turnovers in the 4th and a -22 +/-.

This is why I hate "Point Book".

Devin Booker 4th Quarter 2023-2024 | StatMuse

Devin Booker averaged 5.0 points, 1.3 assists and 0.9 rebounds in 67 games in the fourth quarter in 2023-24.

www.statmuse.com

 

[95pro]

We allow 1 more point in the paint than we did last year. We were 10th in points per game allowed in the paint last season and 16th now. Now we allow 50.3 vs 49.1 last season. If our perimeter defense were better then I get the feeling we'd allow less. Our perimeter D is noticeably worse now. There is no metric I've seen that shows Ayton was far superior to Nurkic.

Stats from

NBA Stats - NBA Team Opponent Points in Paint per Game | TeamRankings.com

NBA opponent points in paint per game, by team.

www.teamrankings.com

Teams don’t necessarily have score in the paint to reflect that they are attacking Nurk. Switching. Pre switching. Attacking his drop coverage with middies. Ball movement and lack of rotation from him leaves a lot of wide open shots for us to go chasing, and most times we just can’t recover fast enough.

Metrics and numbers can deceive the eye if you actually watch the games. I know the past few seasons you didn’t watch games. Are you watching this season?

 

[Hoop Head]

Teams don’t necessarily have score in the paint to reflect that they are attacking Nurk. Switching. Pre switching. Attacking his drop coverage with middies. Ball movement and lack of rotation from him leaves a lot of wide open shots for us to go chasing, and most times we just can’t recover fast enough.

Metrics and numbers can deceive the eye if you actually watch the games. I know the past few seasons you didn’t watch games. Are you watching this season?

I watched roughly 50% of the games since the bubble and watch probably 75% of them up until now. I don't know where you're getting I don't watch games. I don't see what you do. It seems you're grasping now to continue pushing the narrative that Nurkic is our problem and we'd be better with Ayton. There are no stats that support that so you've gone to the age old "You don't watch the games." fallback.

You can dislike Nurkic, that's fine, and you can miss Ayton, but to continue clinging to this theory he's the missing piece to a good defense is something no one else sees and no stats support.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Wild.

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media

LOL… that is PATHETIC.

 

[Sparky16]

80% of this team's problems are not the big 3.

We can't rebound, the role players can't seemingly do anything to help offensively other than Allen and Gordon who can't get consistent shot attempts, we lack a defensive stopper, and we seem to be missing heart.

Clearly the coaching sucks as well.

With all that said - keeping this big 3 will not allow us to improve our role players minus multiple miracles like finding street free agents that contribute at a high level.

I don't see this getting better.

The Big 3 are 110% of the payroll cap space.... that is the problem. Adding in they cannot stay healthy is also the problem

 

[95pro]

I watched roughly 50% of the games since the bubble and watch probably 75% of them up until now. I don't know where you're getting I don't watch games. I don't see what you do. It seems you're grasping now to continue pushing the narrative that Nurkic is our problem and we'd be better with Ayton. There are no stats that support that so you've gone to the age old "You don't watch the games." fallback.

You can dislike Nurkic, that's fine, and you can miss Ayton, but to continue clinging to this theory he's the missing piece to a good defense is something no one else sees and no stats support.

Why do you keep bringing up Ayton? I never said Nurk versus Ayton. Never once did mention Ayton. This is not an Ayton versus Nurk issue. Ayton is gone.

 

[95pro]

I watched roughly 50% of the games since the bubble and watch probably 75% of them up until now. I don't know where you're getting I don't watch games. I don't see what you do. It seems you're grasping now to continue pushing the narrative that Nurkic is our problem and we'd be better with Ayton. There are no stats that support that so you've gone to the age old "You don't watch the games." fallback.

You can dislike Nurkic, that's fine, and you can miss Ayton, but to continue clinging to this theory he's the missing piece to a good defense is something no one else sees and no stats support.

Why do you keep bringing up Ayton? I never said Nurk versus Ayton. Never once did mention Ayton. This is not an Ayton versus Nurk issue. Ayton is gone.

Also there's not point in comparing this team to last years team, there way too many variables (coaching and teammates). You can't even compare Book to Book from this season and last season.

 

[Hoop Head]

Why do you keep bringing up Ayton? I never said Nurk versus Ayton. Never once did mention Ayton. This is not an Ayton versus Nurk issue. Ayton is gone.

You've bashed Nurkic from game 1 and regularly mention what Ayton did that Nurk doesn't. This isn't new. You said no one is afraid of Nurkic and they attack him but I'm not seeing that and can't find any stat to support it.

Also there's not point in comparing this team to last years team, there way too many variables (coaching and teammates). You can't even compare Book to Book from this season and last season.

It is fair to compare a team from 1 year to the next. Yes, changes were made but those changes were supposed to get us closer to a championship. Comparing players from 1 year to the next is also fair because clearly the Suns took Booker from his natural position of SG and have made him the starting PG which has negatively effected his play across the board, on both ends of the floor.

 

[95pro]

We don't know that he wanted 2 stars, especially these 2 stars. He's been spotted front row at a few Brooklyn Nets games since the KD trade went down. I think he was fine with the KD if it made us better but it hasn't and the same goes for Beal. It hasn't worked. Either retool around Booker or send him off too. I'd like to keep him but we may not be in position to do so.

Beal said he didn't request to be traded and was surprised to hear about beind traded. Idr as my memory is a little blurry about this but Book might have asked for Beal.

KD and Book, just guessing but i think they wanted to team up, imo JJ didn't want to for the price and imo Ishbia forced the trade to happen.

 

[Covert Rain]

Teams don’t necessarily have score in the paint to reflect that they are attacking Nurk. Switching. Pre switching. Attacking his drop coverage with middies. Ball movement and lack of rotation from him leaves a lot of wide open shots for us to go chasing, and most times we just can’t recover fast enough.

Metrics and numbers can deceive the eye if you actually watch the games. I know the past few seasons you didn’t watch games. Are you watching this season?

Plus there are stats to back up this thought. I posted them above. Again, not all on Nurk but to say he isn’t a contributing factor to the defensive struggles is mind boggling.

 

[95pro]

A drop from Top 10 which we were actually hovering around number 5 for a chunk of the season to number 15 (we were at one point #22) is a pretty big drop off by any measure. The comparison between teams and where we rank is more indicative than the actual number. Our overall DEF rating is 17 verses last year in which we are top 10. Last year from 2 Ft in Defense giving up 65.1% vs Last year 63.2%. It's not just about protecting the paint. Having a defensive center anchors what you do on defense. We were also top 10 defensive rebounding team last year and this year middle of the pack.

I am not putting it all on Nurk but he is definitely part of the reason why. As much as I like what he does offensively and with his passing he frustrates me on the other end.

Plus there are stats to back up this thought. I posted them above. Again, not all on Nurk but to say he isn’t a contributing factor to the defensive struggles is mind boggling.

It is definitely not all on Nurk but he is a huge problem with our defense.

 

[Hoop Head]

Plus there are stats to back up this thought. I posted them above. Again, not all on Nurk but to say he isn’t a contributing factor to the defensive struggles is mind boggling.

What stats? You talked about 4th quarter scoring and Booker's turnovers. Falling from 10th to 16th isn't all that bad. Both are mediocre. You talked about being as high as and as low as but that doesn't matter much since that's not what the team did regularly. We also lost our best perimeter defender and are no longer a team that prides itself on good defense first.

 

[Covert Rain]

What stats? You talked about 4th quarter scoring and Booker's turnovers. Falling from 10th to 16th isn't all that bad. Both are mediocre. You talked about being as high as and as low as but that doesn't matter much since that's not what the team did regularly. We also lost our best perimeter defender and are no longer a team that prides itself on good defense first.

The ones right up there. There is a big difference between a team bouncing from 5th to 10th and a team bouncing from 22 to 15th. I posted in another thread all the defensive stats pre-Ayton post Ayton for this team and Portland. I have not updated it but to say it has not had an impact is flat out crazy. Again, nobody is fully crediting or blaming either player . Only pointing out it has had an impact.

 

[Covert Rain]

The guys in the morning were talking about how the Suns seriously miscalculated the need for a PG. They briefly said a few teams will be fire selling players at the deadline and they think we should dangle Allen.

 

[nashman]

Team is still coming together takes time. Everyone all upset Memphis beat us then they turned around and smoked Dallas, but Memphis sucks right? Of course they don’t. Man Smart would be ideal for us a tough D you up PG that can hit 3s as well. I think we will continue to come together and be a solid team, will it be enough this year who knows lots of good teams out there that have years together. The NBA really REALLY comes down to health, whatever team is healthy and coming together at the right time could win it all. It’s all a gamble Joker, Tatum, Luka, Ant, Giannis could all be out or injured come playoffs lol anything can happen, we aren’t even half way thru the season! Ja played what 5 games and done for the season! We just have to continue to come together and see what happens, but the bench does need to pull their collective heads out of…

 

[Hoop Head]

The ones right up there. There is a big difference between a team bouncing from 5th to 10th and a team bouncing from 22 to 15th. I posted in another thread all the defensive stats pre-Ayton post Ayton for this team and Portland. I have not updated it but to say it has not had an impact is flat out crazy. Again, nobody is fully crediting or blaming either player . Only pointing out it has had an impact.

I missed that post, apologies. You have a source for those stats? I like looking at numbers as a whole.

 

[Covert Rain]

I missed that post, apologies. You have a source for those stats? I like looking at numbers as a whole.

I believe I linked them in that post. If not, I will have to dig them out again.

On a side note, anybody who is a stat geek like me notice a bunch of the stat sites locked down after the first of the year asking for subscription fees?!? Three of them I used to use all the time? Locked down now or will only give you partials!

 

[Proximo]

Wild.

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media

Whoa. I had no idea it was that bad.

 

[Peter Sheldon]

Whoa. I had no idea it was that bad.

Truly stunning! To the naked eye, it appears to this fan as if the Suns collectively run out of gas in 4th qtr. KD with occasional stupid TOs & more missed shots than earlier in game, Book standing in the corner or missing shots elsewhere, Beal not doing anything special. All standing still with no motion offense. Where is the big 3 gravity we heard so much about? And yes, we have a big 3, but none are defensive gems by any stretch of the imagination. So you are basically calling on a bunch of scrubs to carry you defensively. Hence no reliable rebounding or defense. Nurk and Eubanks swatting the ball around rather than grabbing the damn rebound. Other team invariably goes nuclear from 3 and with layups. And if first shot misses, no worries. They will get 3 more tries! game over. rinse and repeat.

 

[sdscard4]

Seems like when we get some cohesion we get some wins and then bam we get a injury. I think some time with the big 3 healthy will help but it's whole new roster. That's the issue this year. Gotta hope we get a top 6 seed going into the playoffs and we can do some damage. 4th qtr issues are very concerning though.

 

[Proximo]

Truly stunning! To the naked eye, it appears to this fan as if the Suns collectively run out of gas in 4th qtr. KD with occasional stupid TOs & more missed shots than earlier in game, Book standing in the corner or missing shots elsewhere, Beal not doing anything special. All standing still with no motion offense. Where is the big 3 gravity we heard so much about? And yes, we have a big 3, but none are defensive gems by any stretch of the imagination. So you are basically calling on a bunch of scrubs to carry you defensively. Hence no reliable rebounding or defense. Nurk and Eubanks swatting the ball around rather than grabbing the damn rebound. Other team invariably goes nuclear from 3 and with layups. And if first shot misses, no worries. They will get 3 more tries! game over. rinse and repeat.

It's when they go completely to the ISO offense. You know it's the time for our stars to take us home - and they can't do it. The defense knows what's coming and mid range shots even when it's KD or Book shooting them aren't good shots.

I agree with you on Eubanks and his pathetic tips - but I don't really blame Nurk since he has the athleticism of a beached whale.