Surprising Draft

Krangodnzr

Captain of Team Conner
Joined
Jul 21, 2002
Posts
36,490
Reaction score
34,466
Location
Charlotte, NC
Sorry I thought I wrote he wasn’t uniquely athletic. Certainly he’s an above average athlete.

I think it's not really reasonable to expect to find a highly productive player from a big school who is also uniquely athletic in round two.

Much like I felt that Boldin was going to be very good years ago, I have the same feeling about Kirk. I think 5 years from now we are going to look back and he might be the best pick of this draft for the Cardinals. I hope that isn't the case since that would mean Rosen didn't pan out, but I think it's likely.
 

Russ Smith

The Original Whizzinator
Supporting Member
Joined
May 14, 2002
Posts
87,666
Reaction score
38,971
So you are saying that he'll be cut this year?

Doubt it.


no. I'm saying at some point this year some team will suffer a QB injury and be looking for an experienced guy and by that point, Glennon will be our 3rd QB. And I think its' entirely likely we'll consider trading him if there is in fact a deal to be made.

I don't expect us to cut him at all, I do think getting Rosen fundamentally changes our QB situation.

I do agree it's POSSIBLE we'll just keep all 3 and assuming Rosen is ready, move on from Bradford after 1 year with Glennon as the backup. I also think it's entirely possible some team will need a QB and we might get a deal for Glennon.
 

GuernseyCard

ASFN Icon
Joined
Dec 29, 2012
Posts
10,123
Reaction score
5,681
Location
London UK
no. I'm saying at some point this year some team will suffer a QB injury and be looking for an experienced guy and by that point, Glennon will be our 3rd QB. And I think its' entirely likely we'll consider trading him if there is in fact a deal to be made.

I don't expect us to cut him at all, I do think getting Rosen fundamentally changes our QB situation.

I do agree it's POSSIBLE we'll just keep all 3 and assuming Rosen is ready, move on from Bradford after 1 year with Glennon as the backup. I also think it's entirely possible some team will need a QB and we might get a deal for Glennon.

Well, I'll lay my money on going with three this season and Rosen's backup in year two.
 
OP
OP
Harry

Harry

ASFN Consultant and Senior Writer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Posts
11,922
Reaction score
26,045
Location
Orlando, FL
I think it's not really reasonable to expect to find a highly productive player from a big school who is also uniquely athletic in round two.

Much like I felt that Boldin was going to be very good years ago, I have the same feeling about Kirk. I think 5 years from now we are going to look back and he might be the best pick of this draft for the Cardinals. I hope that isn't the case since that would mean Rosen didn't pan out, but I think it's likely.

Actually I’d say Boldin was uniquely athletic. I remember when FSU had 3 injured QBs. Boldin had never played the position in college. He stepped in and won the game playing a QB. It was amazing to watch. I have always believed letting him go was a huge mistake.
 

CardsSunsDbacks

Not So Skeptical
Joined
Aug 26, 2012
Posts
10,152
Reaction score
6,603
Actually I’d say Boldin was uniquely athletic. I remember when FSU had 3 injured QBs. Boldin had never played the position in college. He stepped in and won the game playing a QB. It was amazing to watch. I have always believed letting him go was a huge mistake.
I just don't see Boldin being "uniquely athletic". For a WR he wasn't fast, quick or a good jumper. He simply understood how to run routes well and had some very good hands.
 

JeffGollin

ASFN Icon
Joined
May 14, 2002
Posts
20,472
Reaction score
3,056
Location
Holmdel, NJ
Thread title is "Surprising Draft."

What surprised me was: (1) Number of. 1st rd QB's, (2) high percentage of players who were drafted where they deserved to be drafted, (3) high number of trades, (4) lack of recognizable quality after round 2, (5) no one left to get excited about after round 4, (6) even moreso re UDFA's and (7) the number of guys on this board who really know their stuff about even the most obscure draft prospects.
 

Cardiac

ASFN Icon
Joined
Jul 21, 2002
Posts
12,062
Reaction score
3,331
I just don't see Boldin being "uniquely athletic". For a WR he wasn't fast, quick or a good jumper. He simply understood how to run routes well and had some very good hands.


Thanks for this, you are fired as our GM.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

I'm better than Mulli!
Joined
Sep 16, 2002
Posts
63,593
Reaction score
58,015
Location
SoCal
I think it's not really reasonable to expect to find a highly productive player from a big school who is also uniquely athletic in round two.

Much like I felt that Boldin was going to be very good years ago, I have the same feeling about Kirk. I think 5 years from now we are going to look back and he might be the best pick of this draft for the Cardinals. I hope that isn't the case since that would mean Rosen didn't pan out, but I think it's likely.
I agree I think Kirk is going to be fantastic. A weird gut feeling I don’t get often.
 

CardsSunsDbacks

Not So Skeptical
Joined
Aug 26, 2012
Posts
10,152
Reaction score
6,603
Thanks for this, you are fired as our GM.
LOL, He was a great player, but he wasn't a unique athlete. I can't for the life of me see why this is an outlandish claim. He ran a 4.7 40, 4.3 shuttle, 7.3 cone drill and a 33" vertical. He simply wasn't all that special as an athlete, but was still an exceptional receiver.
 

Krangodnzr

Captain of Team Conner
Joined
Jul 21, 2002
Posts
36,490
Reaction score
34,466
Location
Charlotte, NC
Actually I’d say Boldin was uniquely athletic. I remember when FSU had 3 injured QBs. Boldin had never played the position in college. He stepped in and won the game playing a QB. It was amazing to watch. I have always believed letting him go was a huge mistake.

Skill is different than athleticism. Bethel was uniquely athletic, but not skilled. Boldin was a below average athlete for a starting NFL WR, let alone a hall of famer. But he was driven and skilled beyond what most players are. Kirk is a better athlete AND he is driven. Everyone who has ever encountered the kid says as much.
 

Arz101

ASFN Lifer
Joined
Apr 23, 2014
Posts
4,906
Reaction score
5,600
In this draft where most receivers are bunched up, Cards got Kirk at about the right position. I don't love the pick but like it. His work ethic will make him a receiver notch below golden Tate. Tate has a great after catch motor. Kirk doesn't.


Sent from my PH-1 using Tapatalk
 

gimpy

ASFN Lifer
Joined
Aug 23, 2009
Posts
3,351
Reaction score
2,973
Location
Flagstaff, Az
How can you tell he doesn't have the after catch motor?

Curious is all.
Seems I read on here where he never got caught on the angles?
 

POISON

Formerly known as Okieguy
Joined
Mar 24, 2003
Posts
1,268
Reaction score
380
Location
Norman, Ok.
I don't even know what Harry is talking about. We gave up next to nothing for Rosen, who could've easily went 1st overall in the last few drafts including this one. Stupid teams like the Bills made it possible. Rosen at 10 is an amazing steal. I couldn't believe my eyes when I first saw the compensation. If we paid our 2nd or 2019 1st for the swap I would've been fine. This is a dream scenario for us!

Yet Harry talks about Bradford. Know what? I'm done with Bradford already, never liked him and the sooner The Chosen One starts the better.

That said, I would fully understand Bradford starting the season. Main goal still has to be to get Rosen ready behind the scenes. Kirk is a surefire playmaker in my book from day 1. If just one of the remaining 4 draftees becomes a starter or impact player soon, this draft would be amazing. If just Rosen pans out, this draft will go down as franchise altering!
I'm not sold on Rosen at all. Mayfield or Rudolph would have better picks. Sounds like Rosen has a big mouth.
 

BigRedRage

Reckless
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2005
Posts
48,274
Reaction score
12,525
Location
SE valley
we had to get quarterbacks regardless as the rosen situation could not be predicted. I have no problem with how we did it and think our offense can be just fine this year.
 

Russ Smith

The Original Whizzinator
Supporting Member
Joined
May 14, 2002
Posts
87,666
Reaction score
38,971
LOL, He was a great player, but he wasn't a unique athlete. I can't for the life of me see why this is an outlandish claim. He ran a 4.7 40, 4.3 shuttle, 7.3 cone drill and a 33" vertical. He simply wasn't all that special as an athlete, but was still an exceptional receiver.


he was remarkable at changing directions without slowing down though. that's part of why he was so hard to cover.

I misunderstood Harry's original comment I do think it's fair to say Kirk is not uniquely athletic, I took him to be saying he wasn't particularly athletic I didn't take uniquely literally which is apparently the way he meant it.

Like I said I wanted pettis or Kirk in this draft because both kids were terrific punt returners in college and have the potential, IMO, to be very productive NFL WR's. Neither of them played with particularly good QB's in college, so I think it's hard to really know how productive they will be in the NFL. But a kid like Kirk with an accurate thrower like Bradford and a talent like Rosen has a chance to be very good.
 

MrYeahBut

4 Food groups: beans, chili, cheese, bacon
Supporting Member
Joined
May 20, 2002
Posts
17,859
Reaction score
13,480
Location
Albq
I'm almost to the point that I don't care about picks 4-7 even though they are important to overall success. While I don't think the Rosen/Kirk/Cole picks were a grand slam, Rosen was, at the very least, a run scoring stand up double. Something that has to be done if you want a chance to win.
 

WildBB

Yogi n da Bear
Joined
Mar 20, 2004
Posts
14,295
Reaction score
1,239
Location
The Sonoran Jungle - West
With getting the QBOTF looking to be too costly, going into the draft I expected the Cards to have 2 objectives; fill the holes on defense and protect Bradford. The concept being to stop the opponents from scoring and to give Bradford a chance put just enough points to win. Instead it appears the Cards are willing to take a pass on the 2018 season (honestly it was a longshot anyway). Instead I think they are thinking 2019 or 2020. It’s not just moving up to get Rosen. That was a no brainer. Clearly the Cards have a poor WR unit. Kirk is a sound player and an excellent punt returner. He can be effective in 2018 because he’s the best route runner in the draft and can help with field position. Route running is a rare WR skill in college. It often takes 2-3 years for a pick to learn this skill. The problem is can they get him the ball? That will require time and protection for Bradford. Some will point to 3rd round pick Cole as help, but he’s a backup. It’s possible one day he may become the starting center, but that’s not assured. He can play the other spots, but wouldn’t likely hold up long term. He’s a technician, not an outstanding athlete. In the right matchup he’s okay, but in too many cases he’ll be overmatched.

Once the Cards decided they would take a WR they had to go in round 2. All the good ones were gone by pick 60. I’m just surprised they didn’t get more aggressive in free agency for WRs.

Then they could have selected Connor Williams in round 2. He should become a starter rapidly. He may not be an All Pro, but he would have been good enough to help.

I’m not disputing quickly fixing the Cards was a tough assignment. It was always a question of what year to target. However if you’re going long term why sign Bradford & Glennon and tie up all the free agent money that could have been used to fill other holes long term. Especially the Glennon money looks to have been spent too quickly. Those signings just don’t fit now. They kill flexibility. It seems to me the Cards switched horses midstream. Even Lincoln knew that was a bad idea. Sadly this is not a deep draft. I’ll put something up, but by the time the Cards pick it will be complimentary players and special teams at best.

So what’s all this mean. Well it’s true the Cards couldn’t have expected Rosen to fall into their lap. They had to take him. The question is was it good strategy to change plans after selecting Rosen? I don’t think so. First while I think Kirk is a fine receiver that’s also a position where free agents are readily available and many drafts (not this one) are deep here. Offensive linemen are getting to be a rare commodity. You’d better take one when you can. Of course the Cards now could lose enough games to get one next year, but it usually takes a year to get the ready to coordinate line play. So now we’re talking 2020. I’m getting too old to like long term solutions. If they wanted to shore up the defense D Jackson and Oliver were still on the board.

The Cards will get A’s & B’s from most graders. I think time will prove them wrong. Bradford must be concerned.

My conclusion is simple. The Cards likely finish fourth in the West. They won’t re-sign Bradford even if he plays well although he’ll likely be hurt. Since Rosen is similar in playing style he begins 2019 as the starter. They likely focus in the next draft on OL and WR candidates. The concern is how much punishment can Rosen take in 2019?

It’s weird because on the surface there’s nothing wrong with the selections. They all should be useful NFL players. My feeling is that one of the main things that separates teams is their ability to assemble a synergistic roster. The Cards have good pieces. I’m just not sure when you assemble these pieces to they make a winning picture?



Yes the OLine was a big priority, mtl the biggest priority this off season. So was CB. They were the targeted areas in round 1, I believe, even with the signings of Puig, the QB's and a few CB bodies. The fact that they had to give up very little to move up a get who most had as the most NFL ready game is stunning. Who could have predicted that? They signed Bradford and Glennon for this coming season. They had their bases covered. They needed to fill so many holes on this roster, this off season and for the coming years. But to remain even just somewhat competitive, they had to get some QB's in here not named Stanton or Gabbert.

But after that QB pick the whole picture changed for the future of this team.
That they were ABLE to make that trade to get their legit QBOF is a huge boost for the franchise. Something that will make the signings and coming drafts much easier to maneuver in the coming years.

Kirk was a no brainer pick for me, where they drafted him. Very lucky to have that guy. No one would have thought anything of him being a day 1 pick for someone. He will also help getting the ball out quicker and picking up yardage after the catch. Not to mention his ST abilities. I don't think they believed they could get him where they did, but they had already made their draft trade up - TG.
 
  • Like
Reactions: HGC

MadCardDisease

Moderator
Moderator
Supporting Member
Joined
May 13, 2002
Posts
20,798
Reaction score
14,744
Location
Chandler, Az
I gave the first pick an A+. I can’t do better on that. Simply put, I think you take Rosen the go back to OL or CB. Rosen is so much like Bradford that what you do to protect Bradford works for Rosen. My only concern about Rosen is the concussion issue.

It’s not that I don’t like Kirk as a player and he’s at a need position. I just think he’s a luxury that would be easier to replace than a premier OL.

I'm not sure that Connor Williams was a "Premier OL" prospect like you suggest. He has short arms and most likely will have to play inside. His play regressed in 2017 which is a big concern.

This morning on NFLN radio, Ross Tucker was questioning the Cowboys for selecting him in the second round. Said he believes Williams will be a solid backup offensive lineman who may eventually develop into a starting guard in the NFL but you don't spend a 2nd rounder on a backup when there were better players on the board.
 
  • Like
Reactions: HGC

WildBB

Yogi n da Bear
Joined
Mar 20, 2004
Posts
14,295
Reaction score
1,239
Location
The Sonoran Jungle - West
I'm not sure that Connor Williams was a "Premier OL" prospect like you suggest. He has short arms and most likely will have to play inside. His play regressed in 2017 which is a big concern.

This morning on NFLN radio, Ross Tucker was questioning the Cowboys for selecting him in the second round. Said he believes Williams will be a solid backup offensive lineman who may eventually develop into a starting guard in the NFL but you don't spend a 2nd rounder on a backup when there were better players on the board.
Badda bing. :raccoon:
 
OP
OP
Harry

Harry

ASFN Consultant and Senior Writer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Posts
11,922
Reaction score
26,045
Location
Orlando, FL
The Boldin thing; with apologies to my old friend Dave Te, who helped set up the first combines, I think they measure only a few elements of athleticism. By definition a great football player IMO is a great athlete. Boldin’s abilities translated onto the football field. His agility under physical pressure was off the charts. His balance when competing for jump balls was impressive. He had excellent hands. He had great visual acuity and could find the seams in a shifting defense. The mere fact he was so effective with the combine numbers you present is the exact definition of being uniquely athletic.
 

CardsSunsDbacks

Not So Skeptical
Joined
Aug 26, 2012
Posts
10,152
Reaction score
6,603
The Boldin thing; with apologies to my old friend Dave Te, who helped set up the first combines, I think they measure only a few elements of athleticism. By definition a great football player IMO is a great athlete. Boldin’s abilities translated onto the football field. His agility under physical pressure was off the charts. His balance when competing for jump balls was impressive. He had excellent hands. He had great visual acuity and could find the seams in a shifting defense. The mere fact he was so effective with the combine numbers you present is the exact definition of being uniquely athletic.
I think it points more to his elite intangibles and receiving skills and not so much his athleticism. He was also very strong for a receiver, but I also wouldn't really call that athleticism.
 

Staff online

Forum statistics

Threads
553,720
Posts
5,410,939
Members
6,319
Latest member
route66
Top