The Continuing Saga of "Barroids"

[ajcardfan]

As for the head size comments, I'd like to see the web site that states your head gets bigger due to steroids. Because I haven't been able to find one to date.

If they have abused HGH, then they've basically produced acromegaly in themselves. One of the symptoms of acromegaly is enlarged facial features, thickened facial bones.

http://www.umm.edu/endocrin/acromegaly.htm

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[Lefty]

If they have abused HGH, then they've basically produced acromegaly in themselves. One of the symptoms of acromegaly is enlarged facial features, thickened facial bones.

http://www.umm.edu/endocrin/acromegaly.htm

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Wow, his head is much bigger. You would have to be a moron to believe Bonds did not take steroids.

 

[Southpaw]

If they have abused HGH, then they've basically produced acromegaly in themselves. One of the symptoms of acromegaly is enlarged facial features, thickened facial bones.

http://www.umm.edu/endocrin/acromegaly.htm

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Maybe they just powerlift with their face.

 

[Town Drunk]

Fair enough on the head size.

However, it's still circumstantial evidence. There is nothing concrete at all that says he has taken steroids.

And Zona, labeling people who believe that he might not have done steroids as morons is a very ignorant thing to say

 

[cards 24-7-365]

To me there is no doubt - the evidence is in the changes in his body which do not correspond to his age. Look back at the fox sports slideshow year by year and from '89 to '96 his body doesn't change much. His age from '89 to '96 was 25-32. You can really see a significant change in muscluarity and lean muscle mass gain starting in the '97 and '98 pictures. At the time he was 33-35 years old. This is a time when it is very difficult to gain lean muscle mass.

What makes the argument more convincing is the continued increasing muscle mass since '98. These changes are occuring at ages 35-40? Even with every legal supplement and a strict diet and workout regimen these changes are next to impossible. Let alone the acromegly and increasing skull size.

Here is an intersting article about steroids in baseball from a supplement company web site written two years ago.

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do;jsessionid=FE94B7BB67A6D30A59ECC4A8CFEE8F20.titan?id=566690

*Warning some of this content is pro-steroid.

 

[boondockdrunk]

Fair enough on the head size.

However, it's still circumstantial evidence. There is nothing concrete at all that says he has taken steroids.

And Zona, labeling people who believe that he might not have done steroids as morons is a very ignorant thing to say

It's also very ignorant to say that the changes in his face structure isn't concrete evidence. How would his facial features expand like that? You need to take into account what actually causes this. Not to mention the fact that his power numbers drastically increased at the same time as his face increase. Although that could be his big head growing along with his homerun totals.

In any case, I still don't like the fact that Bonds goes up to the plate wearing mideviel armor.

 

[Lefty]

Fair enough on the head size.

However, it's still circumstantial evidence. There is nothing concrete at all that says he has taken steroids.

And Zona, labeling people who believe that he might not have done steroids as morons is a very ignorant thing to say

Like I said, you have to be pretty stupid not to think Bonds has not done steroids. If you want to hear a bunch of people talking about how Barry is clean, you could go back to your Giants board and discuss fiction.

By the way, you aren't by chance CaliTom from the old site? If not, do you know who I am talking about? That guy used to post about the Giants and how pathetic the Diamondbacks were. This was about 2000.

PS, as for calling people morons, you're right, maybe I was being a little harsh.

 

[Town Drunk]

It’s not concrete evidence. It’s circumstantial evidence. Acromegaly could have been brought on by something other than steroids.

Again, you have no evidence that Bonds took steroids. Just an unnamed source and circumstantial stuff. That’s it, nothing concrete.

How are some Giants fans believing in fiction when there is no evidence that says Bonds took steroids?

Here’s another look at his power numbers that no one wants to talk about:

“OK, I've said similar things on some of the other threads, but I've never seen anyone compile a timeline of Barry's homers along with reasons for spikes or declines (mainly because the media wants it to be a chemical/criminal reason).

YEAR AB HR BB
1986 413 16 65
1987 551 25 54
1988 538 24 72
1989 580 19 93

OK, nothing special here. He's established himself as a 20-25 HR threat. Batting mostly leadoff during this time.

1990 519 33 93
1991 510 25 107
1992 473 34 127

Now he's batting 5th behind VanSlyke and Bonilla. His walks start to go up because now he has weaker hitters behind him.

1993 539 46 126

Ahhhh, he comes home. Why the bump? Ummm, one BIG reason - Expansion. Especially to Colorado. Another reason might be... Happiness? Closer to his best friend, hitting coach... DAD?

1994 391 37 74

Strike year. Who remembers who led the majors in homers that year? Answer: Matt Williams, batting fourth behind Barry.

1995 506 33 120
1996 517 42 151
1997 532 40 145

OK, so now he's fairly well established as a 40hr, 140 walk guy at the age of 30-33, typically peak years for a hitter. A good career progression for a great player. Plus, in 1997, the Giants picked up a utility player from Cleveland named Jose Vizcaino. Oh, and some other guy named Kent.

1998 552 37 130

The McGwire/Sosa duel and the juiced baseball. Andro vs. Human Growth Hormone. This bugs me no end. These guys are PROVEN or ADMITTED cheaters (Andro/Cork), and Barry has never been busted for anything.

Also, realignment brought the Brewers to the National League, and expansion brought in two more teams (and 20+ new pitchers previously not good enough for the majors)

Another key thing happened in 1998. Barry switched BATS to the maple bats from Canada. Not enough is made of this IMHO. Since the maple bat is more durable and less likely to break, Barry says he uses the same bat for BP that he does during games.

1999 355 34 73
2000 480 49 117

And Kent won the MVP this year? Please. Barry has a way of making the players batting around him much much better.

2001 476 73 177

The only year that is anomalous here. But also the only year when Bonds was protected by the REIGNING MVP! Don't forget that Houston moved from the spacious Astrodome to Enron (Homerun) Field.

2002 403 46 198
2003 390 45 148

These years have about the same performance established in 1999. The only year that stands out is 2001 in his career progression. Remember, his BATTING AVERAGE has bounced between .290 and .320 for most of his career, only jumping during the past three years and I haven't heard anybody claiming that steroids helped Barry's batting average.

So, what we have is a player who has established himself as a power hitter (40+ hrs) improving his pitch selection (batting average going up, as well as walks). Two expansion teams have been added TO HIS DIVISION, one of those in a known launching pad. Expansion has added mediocre pitching, technology has improved his bat, the baseball is juiced, and his production did NOT drop during a year of steroid testing (unlike, say, Sammy Sosa, Lance Berkman, Jason Giambi, and Pat Burrell).

And the press is basing all their speculation on added bulk (normal for a guy entering his mid-to-late thirties) and some very questionable associations with known steroid dealers (ok, so this looks bad), and ignoring ALL THE OTHER FACTS.

This is probably the first and only place you'll see the facts broken down like this. And that, my friends, is the problem.”

Here’s an article on asterisks:

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=schoenfield/041207

Like I said, if evidence comes out that proves Bonds has done steroids, then I’m right up there with the majority of baseball fans.

But there is no such evidence at the moment.

 

[Town Drunk]

And no, I have no idea who CaliTom is.

Sorry.

 

[clif]

Who cares about steriods!

 

[Lefty]

By the way, Barry admitted using steroids. What everyone does not believe is Barry did not know. One of his many lies.

 

[Town Drunk]

He didn't admit anything.

An unnamed source leaked grand jury testimony ( a crime) which may or may not be true.

That's it.

Again, more circumstantial stuff.

 

[Mulli]

You are correct. Barry may or may not have told the truth to the grand jury. The "may not" part would also be a crime.

 

[Town Drunk]

Yes, and the unnamed source may or may not have given out the wrong information.

The fact that it's an "unnamed" source sends up red flags.

We really have no idea what was said during the grand jury testimony.

If you want to rely on a source that wishes to remain nameless, well, that's just more circumstantial evidence.

And that's not going to cut it.

 

[boondockdrunk]

Yes, and the unnamed source may or may not have given out the wrong information.

The fact that it's an "unnamed" source sends up red flags.

Maybe he is "unnamed" cuz he doesnt want to go to jail....

 

[Town Drunk]

Probably.

It doesn't change the fact that he could be completely right about what was said, or completely wrong. We don't know.

In the end, it's still circumstantial.

 

[Moose Lady]

Just a question here............if in fact he didn't do steroids than why the hell doesn't he just say he didn't?? Pretty simple question I think but for some reason he comes up with stuff that has nothing to do with that question. If your not guilty then say your not guilty, don't ignore the question or say something completly stupid cuz you don't want to answer the question. I'm sorry but if someone has a problem with just saying "I didn't do it" then that tells me that he did do it. Period.

 

[Town Drunk]

He has said he hasn't done it, numerous times.

The media kept hounding him on it, and he decided to stop taking questions on it.

 

[Southpaw]

Bonds, Sosa, Moss cut from the same cloth

February 25, 2005

BY RICK TELANDER SUN-TIMES COLUMNIST

I want to come to Baltimore for a lot of reasons,'' Sammy Sosa said blithely. "I feel perfect here.''

Does anybody notice a similarity between Sosa and Barry Bonds and -- let me think -- Randy Moss?

And how about various other superstar athletes, like, perhaps, Latrell Sprewell or Albert Belle or Joe Namath or even the early Muhammad Ali?

The unbridled ego.

The lack of concern for others.

The shrugging off of any personal shortcomings.

The disregard of criticism by outside fools, meaning everybody.

The breezy dismissal of wreckage left in one's wake.

The ease in being swollen and satisfied in one's own little universe.

That's Sammy.

That's Barry.

That's Randy.

It is never simple to lump human beings together, but it seems there is a division of the stellar-athlete realm that could encase these three guys.

Sosa blows up a 13-year career with the Cubs and feels fine about it.

Bonds glares at spring-training questioners with open contempt, asking them if they are "jealous'' of him, dismissing their steroid questions the way a horse tail dismisses flies.

And Moss, the great Minnesota Vikings wide receiver, a near-certain Hall of Famer some day, gets traded to the Oakland Raiders for the seventh overall draft choice and a handful of beans.

Actually, veteran Raiders linebacker Napoleon Harris might do well for the Vikes, but he has about a tenth of Moss' God-given ability.

Sent away despite talent

The sole reason Moss was dumped was because of his personality, his mammoth and childlike self-centeredness.

He, like Sosa and Bonds and all those others mentioned, always has lived in a house full of nothing but sycophants and mirrors.

After his mock-mooning incident at Lambeau Field last season against the Green Bay Packers, I listened as Moss explained how unimportant his gross behavior was.

All we reporters better just focus on the "damn 'W,''' he scolded us.

His unfurled hair billowed like a cumulus cloud around his snarling face.

People just picked on him, he said.

Why couldn't everybody just mind his or her own business, and the world would be fine.

Sounded like a preview of Bonds' rant Tuesday.

"You guys are like rerun stories,'' Bonds said sarcastically. "Like 'Sanford and Son.' Almost comical.''

Just get out of his rocket ship!

All the press does, Bonds continued, is come "into our office ... and snoop. And make up stories.''

No matter that grand jury testimony about steroid use is not what a rational person would call a made-up story.

Just leave the genius alone, so he and his serfs can work in peace and quiet.

"You guys need to turn the page,'' Bonds scolded. "We will fix it.''

A league of their own

Self-swollen superstars can always fix their own worlds. Because, in their minds, no one else -- other than flunkies -- lives in those worlds.

Think of Sosa.

It's a small thing, but wouldn't a normal person consider that everyone in the Cubs' clubhouse may not care for his blasting salsa and rap?

This is the part that always got me: Sosa would crank up his tunes, then leave the room.

The king needed to be in charge, even when he was somewhere else.

How could a man leave the city where he had been revered, after coming so close to a World Series appearance in 2003, go to a hamlet like Baltimore and say, "I feel perfect here''?

Moss will claim to be as comfortable with the Raiders as a nut in its shell.

But that will last only until the first discord with whom? Quarterback Kerry Collins? Fellow wideout Jerry Porter? The Raiders' defense? Big dog Al Davis himself?

When it's all about you, "us'' isn't even a dictionary word.

Sosa says he made "two mistakes'' in all his time in Chicago, apparently lumping together arrogance, a corked bat, lying, bailing out on his teammates on the last day and general me-ism.

Sosa states euphorically that Orioles manager Lee Mazzilli is the first skipper who hasn't lied to him.

"He said the same thing about me when he first came here,'' Cubs manager Dusty Baker muttered.

Sammy says Dusty gave him that final day of the season off.

"I didn't give him the day off,'' Baker said. "He asked for it. So again, it's a matter of who you believe.''

At any rate, Baker expected Sosa to at least hang out with the team, sit on the bench, lie on a table in the training room, whatever -- even if he didn't play.

"Where I come from, that's what it means,'' Baker said.

See, what Baker should have learned by now is that certain uber-stars don't listen to your words or sentiments at all.

Like Bonds, Moss and Sosa, all they hear is their own drum.

 

[AZZenny]

dismissing their steroid questions the way a horse tail dismisses flies.

That is beautifully put. Perfect description of Bonds' (and Sosa's) demeanor.

 

[BC867]

He has said he hasn't done it, numerous times.

The media kept hounding him on it, and he decided to stop taking questions on it.

BaBo also said that he has done it, but didn't know what they were.

Brilliant move to cover his butt, but a lousy example for normal folk. And a self-contradiction. Which is a nice way of saying "a lie".

It's interesting that your Governor Ahnold is playing it down.

SACRAMENTO, Calif. - Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger , who has acknowledged using steroids during his years as a champion body builder, said he doesn't regret using the performance-enhancing drugs.

In an interview to be broadcast Sunday, Schwarzenegger told ABC's George Stephanopoulos, "I have no regrets about it, because at that time, it was something new that came on the market, and we went to the doctor and did it under doctors' supervision."

Schwarzenegger has acknowledged taking steroids, but pointed out that they were legal at the time.

"We were experimenting with it. It was a new thing. So you can't roll the clock back and say, 'Now I would change my mind on this,'" he said, according to an excerpt posted on abcnews.com.

The former seven-time Mr. Olympia said he would not encourage drug use because it sent the wrong message to children. But he said he had no problem with athletes taking nutritional supplements and other legal substances to improve their performance.

 

[Town Drunk]

No, he hasn’t said he did anything.

Again, you’re just going by what an “unnamed” source said. You have no idea if that source is telling the truth or not.

Just like we have no idea what was actually said in that grand jury testimony.

Again, you have no evidence. Just circumstantial stuff that isn’t going to cut it.

Keep trying.

 

[devilalum]

Barry tells Pedro Gomez, "Its not like my head size changed"

 

[Southpaw]

Congress takes on "The Code"

Steroids can't outslug subpoenas

March 9, 2005

BY JAY MARIOTTI SUN-TIMES COLUMNIST

What kills me is The Code. It is the cowardly, wink-wink bond that is driving baseball this spring, from the clubhouses to the commissioner's office. Backed into a corner by the steroids crisis, the players and lords of the game are conspiring to play dumb, ignore a dirty past and urge fans everywhere -- actually, consumers with disposable income -- to embrace a beautiful future for the grand old game.

Well, I am happy to report The Code isn't bigger than The Law.

Have you pictured a C-SPAN scene where a sweating Sammy Sosa, he of the corked-bat episode, is asked under oath by a House committeeman, "Mr. Sosa, have you used steroids?'' Have you wondered how Mark McGwire and other heralded sluggers might answer the same question under oath? And how would vocal steroids opponent Frank Thomas respond if asked under oath, "Mr. Thomas, which players during your career have you suspected as steroids users?''

The human imagination might turn into real-life Fess Up Theater next week. Because commissioner Bud See-nothing has shown no desire to fully investigate and disclose all findings from The Syringe Era, a House committee will use subpoena powers to require at least seven current and former players -- including Sosa and Thomas -- to appear at its March 17 hearing on steroids use. There's always a chance this might be a public-relations scam. But if Congress is genuinely motivated to probe the who, what, when, where and why of steroids, the toughest questions will be asked in Washington.

And maybe then, provided the likes of Sosa and McGwire don't shame themselves and plead the Fifth Amendment, we finally will get to the bottom of the performance-enhancement vat that has defrauded the supposed baseball renaissance. Nothing like a subpoena to knock the arrogance out of pampered multimillionaires and a Mr. Magoo commish who thinks he's above legal nuisances.

Selig soft on steroids

The necessity of such a hearing is a reflection on Selig's shabby, irresponsible work on the steroids issue. It's embarrassing enough that the crisis exploded on his watch, that he apparently was among the last to know the home-run craze wasn't a natural progression in time. But rather than protect what is so vital to baseball -- records, tradition, eras -- he has chosen to sweep the syringes under the rug and plead for collective amnesia. Just last weekend, he used The Code when he foolishly declared an institutional victory over steroids and said he won't place asterisks beside the records of offenders. It was the commissioner's way of telling us that he doesn't want to be a commissioner when the game needs him most, as the sinister Barry Bonds stalks the milestones of Babe Ruth and Henry Aaron.

"That would be unfair to do that,'' Selig said. "In fairness to those players, no one has been convicted of anything. And we can't turn history back. My job is to protect the integrity of the game. Each era, each decade, has had situations where people said there were unfair advantages.''

A commissioner who cared about the integrity of the game would use his every power to turn history back, see what he found under certain rocks and protect a regal man such as Aaron. But Selig is too busy defending his cluelessness. "Do I wish I knew in 1995 or 1996 what I know today about this after all the hours I've spent?'' he said. "Of course I do. [But] the people who suggest that everybody should have known about this in the '90s, it's just wrong. I've heard from a number of baseball people who are offended, and they're right.''

Offended? Selig and the owners have been running the game for a dozen years, and they're offended because we think they aren't in touch with the ethics and morals of their product? Selig will go down as a commissioner who did more to bring chaos to baseball than the order he and Jerry Reinsdorf promised back in 1992, when they wrestled control from middleman commissioner Fay Vincent at an O'Hare hotel. I mean, the nerve of this guy. When asked last weekend about the published revelations of Jose Canseco, whose appearance at the hearing will be worth the attention investment alone, Selig looked at his deputy, former Oakland Athletics boss Sandy Alderson, and wisecracked, "You drafted Canseco, but what role do you think Madonna played?''

No one will be laughing a week from Thursday. When the House Committee on Government Reform first announced it would invite players to testify, the excuses were as pathetic as the problem itself. Sosa used his agent, Adam Katz, to say he was "politely declining'' the invitation, as though it was a charity event. Rafael Palmeiro, accused of using steroids by Canseco, vowed not to go because March 17 is his wife's birthday, saying: "I don't want anything to do with that. I'm flattered that they've invited me, but I'll respectfully decline.'' Curt Schilling, who has pushed baseball through the years to toughen its steroids policy, said he wouldn't go "if it's a McCarthy witch hunt all over again.'' Thomas, who sometimes looked like an overweight bum in the steroids era but now looks like a hero of sorts, worried that his wounded ankle would swell to the size of a grapefruit on a cross-country flight. As for Jason Giambi, he said he already had "done things I had to do earlier,'' referring to the confession that wasn't.

Mandatory attendance

Guess what, guys? Your presence isn't merely requested, it's demanded by law. And if anyone plans on blowing it off, they'll come and get you. For some reason, Bonds still isn't on the list, perhaps because they're frightened of what he might do or say in the room. Selig and union chief Don Fehr also haven't been subpoenaed yet, even though they're the lead culprits in the mess. Said Canseco's attorney, Robert Saunooke: "Jose is hopeful that Major League Baseball and the Players Association will start being more forthright in the revelations that he has made in the book.''

Rather than plot new strategies of blowing off the day, baseball as a whole should just plan on being there, ready to take its lumps after years of taking the juice. All the invitees should sit back and listen in horror as two sets of parents discuss why steroids, in their minds, contributed to their baseball sons committing suicide. They'll hear the story of Taylor Hooton, cousin of former Cubs pitcher Burt Hooton, and how he hanged himself in 2003 after a bout with depression. He was 17.

But will they care? Last I heard from Bonds, he was telling us in his smarmy tone that his testicles are the same size as always. I have no time for The Code anymore.

Hopefully, neither does Washington.

 

[UncleChris]

Rather than who is "invited," it's who isn't "invited" that makes this all seem like a charade. Time will tell....