The Knights of Nee

[nurnay]

I demand a.... SHRUBBERY!!!

 

[az1965]

So your saying if a majoritiy of the people on this board dont like a percentage of a posters posts that Skkorp gets canned? Interesting..

Something like that...

 

[Brian]

So then you are saying that the whole group should be fired then. Or are you saying that Graves isnt managing the people under him \properly, or his hiring skills stink and he hired some bums for the scouting department, or Graves is getting Bullied by the masses that work for him. Either way you slice it it is on Graves head as he is the final say. He is the General MANAGER, he is the end all be all for personel decisions, period. That is why he has the title and that is why he got his salaried tripled. Just like if a movie stinks its the directors fault not the sound guy, or if your food at a resteraunt is bad its the chefs fault not the waiter. To think of it any other way is dumbfounding. Heck even the biggest defenders of Graves say it is all on Graves shoulders now.

Just when I think I get out of one of these types of threads(and they all say the same exact thing) I get sucked right back in.

Amen brother. Amen.

I am SO SICK of the Graves apologists on this board.

Nice guy? Sure.

Incompetent GM? Absolutely.

God it is hard to be a Card fan.....

 

[jefftheshark]

My point is that nearly everything that happens down on Hardy Dr. is done by committee and consensus. The only exceptions I know of are Buddy Ryan (nearly total control), Dennis Green (control of player personnel), and it used to be rumored that occasionally the old man would make a pick back in the old days.

Ah, but there's the rub. The Owners flat out said that Graves was in charge of the draft for the past several years, not Denny. So you are either wrong, or Mike Bidwill was stretching the truth.

But just for fun, let's look at the Denny drafts: The 3 drafts that occurred under Denny's watch produced Dockett, Eric Green, Blackstock & Pope in the third round. All are potential starters. You can argue about their individual talents (As Borat would say, "In my country Mr. Dockett & Green, they would go crazy for you two...... Mr. Blackstock, not so much.") but what the heck, they made the team!

Now it's 2007 and Denny is gone, Graves is in charge and - lo and behold! - he really isn't in charge - he's just a member of a committee! (I can picture Graves talking to Bill Bidwill: "Buster's not my fault, he was the next name on the list, and we all know a list can never be wrong or changed!")

Really, Redline, reading your post, I have to draw the follow conclusion: Graves is either a mediocre analyst of NFL talent (for every Pace and Buster Davis, there's a Boldin to make up for it) or he is a terrible manager (Don't look at me, I'm only one out of thirty on the committee!).

Neither choice is particularly comforting.

But, Redline, don't be a stranger. Welcome! And since you have lurked on this board for as long as you say (and I have no reason to question it) then you know the drill: I'll take a late night snack of Garduno's Nachos (from the Palms) and a Patron shooter on the side.

Oh, and Nee!

JTS

 

[nurnay]

And since you have lurked on this board for as long as you say (and I have no reason to question it) then you know the drill: I'll take a late night snack of Garduno's Nachos (from the Palms) and a Patron shooter on the side.

Oh, and Nee!

JTS

Man, can't believe I missed out on that part! Make mine a burger from Delux and a Guinness.

 

[Garthshort]

Insight

RedLine, a GREAT first post. Very interesting. And if you are not a part of the Cards front office, did you at least stay at a Holiday Inn Express, last night?

 

[JeffGollin]

RedLine, a GREAT first post. Very interesting...

I agree with Garth.

Everyone has the right to their opinion, but the heat-level of the rage toward the front office concerns me. Why so much venom? There is coaching to be done and games to be played, yet there seems to be this compulsion to launch grenades at management. (It makes me wonder what other individual personal issues are being played out here)

To paraphrase Bill Parcells - "the grocery shopping has been done. It's time to cook the meal." It doesn't matter "who did what" or "who said what to whom." There are brats to cook up on the tailgate grill and games to be won.

 

[cardsfanmd]

Dont just paint a portion of the picture then leave it be. Ozzy is also a very savvy free agent participant, trades, 2nd round to 7th round, and has more pro bowlers to his name then any other active GM currently working.

I didn't think that part of the picture needed to be painted. I figured everyone already knew all of what you just said. My point was not to put him down, but to show that even the best talent evaluators sometimes make mistakes.

 

[cardsfanmd]

I don't think he meant that Joe. He said Newsome is considered by many to be the best in the game. He was just pointing out that even the best miss ocassionally.

Thank you.

 

[Stout]

I didn't think that part of the picture needed to be painted. I figured everyone already knew all of what you just said. My point was not to put him down, but to show that even the best talent evaluators sometimes make mistakes.

Yeah, but you're trying to help write off a mistake by an incompetent GM by showing that even a comptetent GM makes mistakes. Yeah, we get that. It doesn't mean Graves should get a free pass. It just makes yet another mistake even worse.

 

[Stout]

I agree with Garth.

Everyone has the right to their opinion, but the heat-level of the rage toward the front office concerns me. Why so much venom? There is coaching to be done and games to be played, yet there seems to be this compulsion to launch grenades at management. (It makes me wonder what other individual personal issues are being played out here)

To paraphrase Bill Parcells - "the grocery shopping has been done. It's time to cook the meal." It doesn't matter "who did what" or "who said what to whom." There are brats to cook up on the tailgate grill and games to be won.

Tell me, Jeff...is all the venom towards Matt Millen in Detroit merely hate? Are there individual personal issues being played out there, or is it simply that the fans can't stand the incompetence? I ask, because our situations are extremely comparable. We're not quite as badly managed as the Lions, thank the football Gods, but it's not much of a separation. Many of our fans are simply tired of how our FO runs this team, and they're fed up with it. Knowing us, they're going to be quite vocal about it. That's all.

 

[conraddobler]

I agree with Garth.

Everyone has the right to their opinion, but the heat-level of the rage toward the front office concerns me. Why so much venom? There is coaching to be done and games to be played, yet there seems to be this compulsion to launch grenades at management. (It makes me wonder what other individual personal issues are being played out here)

To paraphrase Bill Parcells - "the grocery shopping has been done. It's time to cook the meal." It doesn't matter "who did what" or "who said what to whom." There are brats to cook up on the tailgate grill and games to be won.

It's a football board, we're fans, other than cheering and putting fan pressure on management what else do we do?

You're acting like we can't express an opinion like it's some military operation where the decision has been made or something.

I'll root for the Graves picks to score touchdowns, cause fumbles, win games, and I'll be absolutely thrilled if Graves proves me wrong and goes on to be on the cover of SI as the genius behind the Cardinals Superbowl dynasty.

Here's hoping that happens.

 

[JeffGollin]

Tell me, Jeff...is all the venom towards Matt Millen in Detroit merely hate? Are there individual personal issues being played out there, or is it simply that the fans can't stand the incompetence?.

As long as you're asking, I believe there are natural haters on this board and other boards who - if they didn't have Graves & the Bidwillls to launch verbal hand grenades at - would find another target.

I have no problem with fans being hyper-critical of either Millen or Graves - it's the heat level behind the comments that bothers me. (Chill. It's only football. Why not target Darfur or the treatment of returning vets or something that really impacts people instead)?

Incidently, one thing that differentiates Millen from Graves is that for several years, Millen has been "the man" in Detroit with the title of President. Rod was just elevated to GM.

It can be debated over whether the best way to head up a football team is by having the guy handling personnel be your CEO (making all strategic big picture decisions) or a COO whose mission is to run operations & setting up a collegial type of management structure where decisions are mostly made by committee.

Whatever flavor you prefer, to me Millen fits more the CEO model. Rod is more of a COO.

In neither case, in my opinion, does it make sense when a fan-segment seemsto be more involved with the blasting of a team's management than they are with the game on the field itself. I think it's fair to ask the question: "Why the venom?"

 

[Chris_Sanders]

I have a love/hate relationship with this board (been lurking here since the inception). The hate part is mainly due to several normally intelligent posters who are somehow amazingly capable of pulling their blinders on, and failing to recognize reality, or remember history. They sometimes can whine and moan about the same things incessantly and ad nauseum, while failing to recognize the truth of a situation. I shall call these folks the “Knights of Nee”.

Regarding the cut of our 3rd round draft pick; let me paint you a little picture:

The Cards have 9 scouts who all report to Steve Keim (who has dramatically improved the scouting operation). There are also 16 coaches with years of experience, and many are from successful programs. And there are several football administration people who report to Graves.

This spring for many weeks before the draft, all these folks met together in the draft war room with input and supervision from Michael and Bill Sr.. The coaches explained to the scouts what type of players they wanted at each position. The scouts presented all their reports and video clips, and also the team had access to all the public scouting reports available, insider contacts, and I’m sure some additional professional reports they pay for. These folks discussed their biggest needs, hashed out who would best fill their needs, prioritized them, and came up with a list of their top 120 picks (which corresponds to 5 to 7 rounds since teams have differing needs).

My point is that nearly everything that happens down on Hardy Dr. is done by committee and consensus. The only exceptions I know of are Buddy Ryan (nearly total control), Dennis Green (control of player personnel), and it used to be rumored that occasionally the old man would make a pick back in the old days.

On draft day, there are no decisions to be made except to consider trades. When the Cards pick comes up, they wait for trade offers and then pick the top remaining guy on the draft board. Simple, no second-guessing, no fussing. That’s the whole point of all that preparation.

Now that our 3rd round pick hasn’t made the active roster; for anyone to say that this is a huge failure for the front office, or the fault of Rod Graves in particular, is TOTALLY RIDICULOUS.

Come on Knights of Nee (you know who you are!), take the blinders off! Crap happens, deal with it, move on.

Off my soapbox now.

It's rare I am tempted to ban someone on their first post but you win the big prize.

We do NOT call out other posters here. Period. Your allusion to Monty Python wasn't funny and it isn't welcome.

 

[Zeno]

(Chill. It's only football. Why not target Darfur or the treatment of returning vets or something that really impacts people instead)?

Its a football board thats why you don't see people venting about those other things.

Everyone here is passionate about their team in their own different way, some just sit back and accept things for what they are knowing they can't change a thing, others see few faults in the organization & think everything will turn out OK and yet others feel the need to vent when they don't think the team is doing all that they are capable of. Different attitudes for sure but all of them realists, optimists and "dark siders" all care deeply for the Cardinals.

 

[Pariah]

Everyone has the right to their opinion, but the heat-level of the rage toward the front office concerns me. Why so much venom?

Because year after year for far longer than mere chance should dictate we've been a losing franchise. ...And that sucks and it's somebodies fault. Maybe things have changed, but until it actually shows up in the W-L column, the FO hasn't earned a reprieve.

JMHO.

 

[ajcardfan]

Because year after year for far longer than mere chance should dictate we've been a losing franchise. ...And that sucks and it's somebodies fault. Maybe things have changed, but until it actually shows up in the W-L column, the FO hasn't earned a reprieve.

JMHO.

Hey, who wants breakfast?

You must be registered for see images

 

[Pariah]

mmmm. Sausages.

 

[jefftheshark]

.

Everyone has the right to their opinion, but the heat-level of the rage toward the front office concerns me. Why so much venom?

This is a fair question.

I don't think that there is "venom" as much as there is frustration.

It was easier during the Sun Devil Stadium days to accept mediocrity, because the Cardinals displayed almost a Mom & Pop type approach to the Corporate world of the NFL. You could go to a game, and there were so few people in the stands (especially wearing home colors), that you almost felt that you were on a first name basis with everyone there.

Plus, the Cardinals were very accessible. If I recall correctly, they even issued Press Credentials to ASFN. Remember when Nidan and Brighteyes used to sit under a tree at the training facility and chat with Graves and management on a wide rage of subjects? We were more willing to forgive Management back then, because we felt like we had a personal relationship with them.

And due to this insider information, our expectations were lower, because we knew deep down in our hearts that we were at a competitive disadvantage because of where we played.

But last year, the new stadium changed all that. The Cards have a beautiful, shiny new place to call home, and sold out games. The fan base has expectations that have now been been raised. The fans are spending more of their hard earned cash to see the Cardinals play and most of them, like myself, now expect to see big-boy NFL quality games from this organization.

The team now looks like a NFL team, it plays in a NFL level stadium and it needs to be run like a NFL organization. The Cardinal marketing staff has worked very hard to get people like me to buy their product. The fans have made a major investment of their time and money into the team because of a belief that if they got more competitive financially, they would get more competitive on the field.

But Mr. Graves (great guy, I get all that) is a holdover from the "same 'ol Cardinals". Blowing a 3rd round pick is what we expected to happen in the "same 'ol Cardinals" era, not now. This is something that only the Raiders should do, because they are the worst run organization in the league. But when we do it too, where do we fall on the organizational spectrum?

We are now supposed to be better than that.

I bought into the message that we are now better than that.

We're supposed to be "Smart. Disciplined. Tough."

And being 2 out of 3 doesn't really cut it anymore.


JTS

 

[conraddobler]

This is a fair question.

I don't think that there is "venom" as much as there is frustration.

It was easier during the Sun Devil Stadium days to accept mediocrity, because the Cardinals displayed almost a Mom & Pop type approach to the Corporate world of the NFL. You could go to a game, and there were so few people in the stands (especially wearing home colors), that you almost felt that you were on a first name basis with everyone there.

Plus, the Cardinals were very accessible. If I recall correctly, they even issued Press Credentials to ASFN. Remember when Nidan and Brighteyes used to sit under a tree at the training facility and chat with Graves and management on a wide rage of subjects? We were more willing to forgive Management back then, because we felt like we had a personal relationship with them.

And due to this insider information, our expectations were lower, because we knew deep down in our hearts that we were at a competitive disadvantage because of where we played.

But last year, the new stadium changed all that. The Cards have a beautiful, shiny new place to call home, and sold out games. The fan base has expectations that have now been been raised. The fans are spending more of their hard earned cash to see the Cardinals play and most of them, like myself, now expect to see big-boy NFL quality games from this organization.

The team now looks like a NFL team, it plays in a NFL level stadium and it needs to be run like a NFL organization. The Cardinal marketing staff has worked very hard to get people like me to buy their product. The fans have made a major investment of their time and money into the team because of a belief that if they got more competitive financially, they would get more competitive on the field.

But Mr. Graves (great guy, I get all that) is a holdover from the "same 'ol Cardinals". Blowing a 3rd round pick is what we expected to happen in the "same 'ol Cardinals" era, not now. This is something that only the Raiders should do, because they are the worst run organization in the league. But when we do it too, where do we fall on the organizational spectrum?

We are now supposed to be better than that.

I bought into the message that we are now better than that.

We're supposed to be "Smart. Disciplined. Tough."

And being 2 out of 3 doesn't really cut it anymore.


JTS

No one is saying we're not better than we were, however to realize how bad it was is to shudder in despair.

That was born out by our record.

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting the results to change.

Graves is fine as a member of the FO, I'm not even advocating firing the guy, simply bring in a GM who is top notch and let him hire and fire who he wants to.

IMO it was silly to retain Graves as the GM because now if you hired a new GM he'd have a hold over coach, which is not bad it's just not the way it's usually done and it's not optimal, Graves had input into the DG hiring, it went pretty bad, that's enough to get a lot of GM's fired in the league, especially ones without previous track records of success.

 

[jefftheshark]

No one is saying we're not better than we were, however to realize how bad it was is to shudder in despair.

That was born out by our record.

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting the results to change.

Graves is fine as a member of the FO, I'm not even advocating firing the guy, simply bring in a GM who is top notch and let him hire and fire who he wants to.

IMO it was silly to retain Graves as the GM because now if you hired a new GM he'd have a hold over coach, which is not bad it's just not the way it's usually done and it's not optimal, Graves had input into the DG hiring, it went pretty bad, that's enough to get a lot of GM's fired in the league, especially ones without previous track records of success.

We had the opportunity to do this last year, and the Owners chose to keep the status quo.

Now we see the "same 'ol, same 'ol" results of retaining Graves. I'm just surprised that some fans were surprised by this admission of failure.

But I will still be at the games, yelling my fool head off, and having fun. However, the Owners need to realize that I will be surrounded by fewer and fewer Cardinal fans if they don't start to get their act together.

JTS

 

[CtCardinals78]

Here's what I don't get. When Graves was promoted this whole MB almost exploded in outrage by almost a margin of 4:1. Now the new season is about to start and questions are raised about a draft cut because it symbolizes a link to the same old issues that befell this organization ealier and when people question it apologies are made and it's not Graves fault even though he says it's all on him.

Personally I don't know RG he seems like a very intelligent, classy guy. I will cheer on the Cards until the day I die and support ALL members of the organization, that does not recuse them, however; from questioning questionable decsions, especially when I am paying money supporting this team by purchasing merchandise and spending my time watching and following this team. Some of you spend much more because you live in AZ, but anyone who follows and supports any team has a right to question their moves, especially when those decisions have a direct correlation to losing records.

As for venom I don't think it is as much venom as it is JTS said. Excellent post. How many more losing seasons can we tolerate? We have seen every prenial losers of the NFL become winners except the Cardinals. At what point do the people making the decisions be held accountable? Do you think the Partriots would be what they are if Robert Kraft never bought the team? We are the Kansas City Royals of the NFL which is a shame in a league that prides itself on parity.

 

[conraddobler]

We are the Kansas City Royals of the NFL which is a shame in a league that prides itself on parity.

I live in KC and that's a big ouch, although I'm actually from St. Louis originally and so that' how I'm a Cardinal fan and also still a die hard Cardinal baseball fan.

The Royals are actually very interesting, they're much better since hiring....


A NEW GM.

He's made all the right moves and they might not lose 90 games again, so leadership matters.

 

[TigToad]

please

Please, please, please.. if you are going to start banning people for calling others out do so. The flaming is getting crazy.

But, I wouldn't start with a well thought out post. Just my .02 as a person who has moderated half a dozen forums over the last 14 years.

It's rare I am tempted to ban someone on their first post but you win the big prize.

We do NOT call out other posters here. Period. Your allusion to Monty Python wasn't funny and it isn't welcome.

 

[AZCB34]

then pick the top remaining guy on the draft board.

The big issue with this is Davis could not have logically been the best player on their board in round 3...and I loved watching Davis play in college. It should not have taken a genius to see that Davis would have a difficult time playing in the NFL way before the draft. I HOPED Davis would somehow succeed but I never really believed he would...not at least as a LB in the NFL.

In the end however, the pick ultimately is made by one guy...Rod Graves. It does not matter to anyone how he gets to that decision, just what the decision really is. Like any GM he will hit and miss but he should not miss on a day 1 player before that player even plays a single snap in a single regular season game. That is not a miss, that is a complete and utter failure of a pick.