The Phx Suns have a real center

[BC867]

I can't remember a Suns team that had a center that was more than an after thought. Alvan Adams was great but he wasn't really a true center.

Mark West may have been, but he was always in foul trouble, which diminished his availability.

He had a more outstanding career after that. Stockbroker. Suns Assistant GM. And a great voiceover for Suns promos.

 

[Mainstreet]

I can't remember a Suns team that had a center that was more than an after thought. Alvan Adams was great but he wasn't really a true center.

I like how the Suns have chosen to develop Siler. Eddie Johnson seems to be his biggest fan. When he gets in the lineup he is just craving to post up down low. I like his offensive skills. Now if he can only develop his rebounding and defensive skills. If he can keep his weight down (unlike Oliver Miller) I think he will develop at least into a role playing center. I think he is playing at around 300 pounds and still moves well. The Suns are the deepest at center I have ever seen.

 

[Divide Et Impera]

Mark West was always in foul trouble mostly due to some of the oddest calls ever. I specifically remember him being whistled for a blocking foul down on the blocks, but the problem was that he was just crossing the three point line at the time of the call. Yes, he was called for a foul and it did stick. West was a badass, but I could never understand the ref problems he had. Bad investment advice?

 

[Mainstreet]

Mark West was always in foul trouble mostly due to some of the oddest calls ever. I specifically remember him being whistled for a blocking foul down on the blocks, but the problem was that he was just crossing the three point line at the time of the call. Yes, he was called for a foul and it did stick. West was a badass, but I could never understand the ref problems he had. Bad investment advice?

If there was ever a foul waiting to happen it was Mark West. I never understood why he was getting so many foul calls either. Maybe it was just because he looked so bad. If he could have ever stayed on the court he could have helped the Suns more.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I can't remember a Suns team that had a center that was more than an after thought. Alvan Adams was great but he wasn't really a true center.

People keep saying that and I can't figure out why. Alvan Adams was probably the 5th best center in the NBA during the latter half of the 70's. He did everything a center was supposed to do and was above average defensively. He also wasn't really all that undersized for the position at that time.

By the early 80's the position had changed enough that his lack of size started to be a problem and it was made worse by the fact that he was also losing some quickness and athleticism (from age and the daily pounding) but early on he made the All Star team for a reason. He didn't make it often but that was because Kareem (and Walton) were in the West also because Westy and Davis already gave us 2 selections every year.

There just weren't that many great centers when Adams first entered the league. Everyone was looking for someone to guard the Kareem's and the best they could do usually were the big stiffs (like Dennis Awtrey) who could take up space but had very little game. Adams ran circles around those guys and was a 20/10 guy (or close enough) routinely early in his career. He was also an excellent passer and a solid defender against most of his peers. No, he couldn't guard Kareem but few could.

Steve

 

[BC867]

He did everything a center was supposed to do and was above average defensively.

Alvan Adams stationed himself at the top of the key on offense, just as Channing Frye plays 23 ft. from the basket.

But Frye has been moved to Power Forward, next to legitimately sized Centers. Adams was not. He tied up our Center position for the better part of a decade.

Our Power Forwards (and we went through many) were constantly put at a disadvantage by having to be the Suns defacto Center.

He also wasn't really all that undersized for the position at that time.

6'9" at the time for a Center was close to the standard 6'10". But 212 lbs. (with the skinniest arms on the court) was undersized.

It defined the Suns, right up until the early-season trade earlier this year, as a finesse team, weak on rebounding and short on foul calls from the refs.

The worst thing that could have happened to the Suns during Adams' rookie season was being the Cinderella team in the Finals vs. the Celtics and his being selected rookie of the year. Both of which happened.

It doomed us for over thirty years. And now, for the first time, oh what a relief it is! As this thread is entitled, the Phx Suns have a real center.

it wasn't Adams then. It isn't Frye now.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Alvan Adams stationed himself at the top of the key on offense, just as Channing Frye plays 23 ft. from the basket.

But Frye has been moved to Power Forward, next to legitimately sized Centers. Adams was not. He tied up our Center position for the better part of a decade.

Our Power Forwards (and we went through many) were constantly put at a disadvantage by having to be the Suns defacto Center.


6'9" at the time for a Center was close to the standard 6'10". But 212 lbs. (with the skinniest arms on the court) was undersized.

It defined the Suns, right up until the early-season trade earlier this year, as a finesse team, weak on rebounding and short on foul calls from the refs.

The worst thing that could have happened to the Suns during Adams' rookie season was being the Cinderella team in the Finals vs. the Celtics and his being selected rookie of the year. Both of which happened.

It doomed us for over thirty years. And now, for the first time, oh what a relief it is! As this thread is entitled, the Phx Suns have a real center.

it wasn't Adams then. It isn't Frye now.

And I think you judge 1976 Alvan by 1984 Alvan's performance and they were two different players. Also, he played up top not like Frye but as a high post center. He was rookie of the year because he deserved it. Well, also because David Thompson was in the ABA. He was an all star selection the next year (or the following, I forget exactly which) and he earned that also. You say our PF's suffered because of him, I've always thought he suffered because of our PF's.

Steve

 

[JCSunsfan]

Alvan Adams stationed himself at the top of the key on offense, just as Channing Frye plays 23 ft. from the basket.

But Frye has been moved to Power Forward, next to legitimately sized Centers. Adams was not. He tied up our Center position for the better part of a decade.

Our Power Forwards (and we went through many) were constantly put at a disadvantage by having to be the Suns defacto Center.


6'9" at the time for a Center was close to the standard 6'10". But 212 lbs. (with the skinniest arms on the court) was undersized.

It defined the Suns, right up until the early-season trade earlier this year, as a finesse team, weak on rebounding and short on foul calls from the refs.

The worst thing that could have happened to the Suns during Adams' rookie season was being the Cinderella team in the Finals vs. the Celtics and his being selected rookie of the year. Both of which happened.

It doomed us for over thirty years. And now, for the first time, oh what a relief it is! As this thread is entitled, the Phx Suns have a real center.

it wasn't Adams then. It isn't Frye now.

The Suns played a high post offense that was common in those days. His role was a typical center role. He and Dave Cowans faced off in the finals at the center position. Cowans was 6-7 and Adams was 6-9. He was a true center.

 

[Errntknght]

The Suns played a high post offense that was common in those days. His role was a typical center role. He and Dave Cowans faced off in the finals at the center position. Cowans was 6-7 and Adams was 6-9. He was a true center.

Cowans was 6-9 and weighed 20 lbs more that Alvan - he also ran circles around him, along with virtually everyone else on the floor. The same big, strong centers that Alvan struggled with, you pitied when they were matched against Cowans because he ran them into the floor. He also outrebounded them, typically averaging 15-16 rebs/game.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Cowans was 6-9 and weighed 20 lbs more that Alvan - he also ran circles around him, along with virtually everyone else on the floor. The same big, strong centers that Alvan struggled with, you pitied when they were matched against Cowans because he ran them into the floor. He also outrebounded them, typically averaging 15-16 rebs/game.

Cowans was a real beast early in his career. By the late 70's he was no longer as effective on offense but he was still one of the 2 or 3 best defensive centers probably up until he retired. I use to love watching him clash with Wes Unseld when the Celtics played the Baltimore Bullets (later the Capital and then Washington Bullets). I was stationed at Ft Devens (Ayer, Mass) in 72-73 and I got to see the two play against each other live. One of my favorite live game memories.

Steve

 

[desertdawg]

If the defense keeps up, I can imagine more Siler sightings late in the games. Whats gonna happen if he gets it going too? You know he is banging with the big boys and the new attitude in practice. This team is...

 

[JCSunsfan]

Cowans was 6-9 and weighed 20 lbs more that Alvan - he also ran circles around him, along with virtually everyone else on the floor. The same big, strong centers that Alvan struggled with, you pitied when they were matched against Cowans because he ran them into the floor. He also outrebounded them, typically averaging 15-16 rebs/game.

A picture is worth a thousand words. http://www.bermansports.com/picturepages/adams-cowens.htm

 

[BC867]

You say our PF's suffered because of him, I've always thought he suffered because of our PF's.

We had a great PF in 6'9" Maurice Lucas (The Enforcer), but having to mix it up down low with Centers, while Adams stood at the top of the key, neutralized Luke's strengths. Imagine how much of a challenge it was for our weaker Power Forwards.

A picture is worth a thousand words. http://www.bermansports.com/picturepages/adams-cowens.htm

I mean, look how scrawny Alvan's arms are. And he doesn't even look to be the same 6'9" height as Cowans.

 

[AzStevenCal]

We had a great PF in 6'9" Maurice Lucas (The Enforcer), but having to mix it up down low with Centers, while Adams stood at the top of the key, neutralized Luke's strengths. Imagine how much of a challenge it was for our weaker Power Forwards.

Again, you're talking about Adams near the end of his career. I've already acknowledged that he dropped off considerably in the early 80's and Lucas doesn't join the Suns until he's also over the hill in the 82 season.

I mean, look how scrawny Alvan's arms are. And he doesn't even look to be the same 6'9" height as Cowans.

Adams was lean but he wasn't the wimp you're making him out to be. Also, go find a picture of Bill Walton when he first came out. IIRC, his arms weren't much bigger either and for a year or two he was arguably the best center in the game, a game which still included Kareem Abdul Jabbar who was clearly still in his prime.

Cowans is standing upright and appears to be an inch taller than a hunched over Alvan Adams. Both fully upright, I'd definitely give the height advantage to Alvan. There's no denying that Cowans was a lot stronger and a lot more physical but he was one of the strongest, most physical players in the game at that time so that's no shock. Remember, back then it was still pretty rare for basketball players to do any kind of strength training as it was believed to limit their flexibility.

Steve

 

[Chaplin]

I mean, look how scrawny Alvan's arms are. And he doesn't even look to be the same 6'9" height as Cowans.

Are you kidding? Alvan is crouching and Cowans is standing straight up.

 

[BC867]

Are you kidding? Alvan is crouching and Cowans is standing straight up.

You're right. Alvan was the same 6'9' as Cowens at Center, but certainly not his match in the strength category.

Alvan crouching at Center reminds me of Lopez. It seems Robin has always tended to play shorter than his height, up until his most recent game -- his best in a long time. I hope that Bill Cartwright got through to him and Friday was not just a fluke.

The crouching reminds me also of Andrew Lang at Center for the Suns. He always crouched and brought the ball down low, on level with small Guards. One would think that any big man who has reached the NBA would know how to use his size.

Which brings us back to Adams. He just didn't have the size. If only John MacLeod had moved his college player to Small Forward in the Pro's -- at least until Larry Nance hit the scene as a 6'10" SF.

 

[Chaplin]

You're right. Alvan was the same 6'9' as Cowens at Center, but certainly not his match in the strength category.

Alvan crouching at Center reminds me of Lopez. It seems Robin has always tended to play shorter than his height, up until his most recent game -- his best in a long time. I hope that Bill Cartwright got through to him and Friday was not just a fluke.

The crouching reminds me also of Andrew Lang at Center for the Suns. He always crouched and brought the ball down low, on level with small Guards. One would think that any big man who has reached the NBA would know how to use his size.

Which brings us back to Adams. He just didn't have the size. If only John MacLeod had moved his college player to Small Forward in the Pro's -- at least until Larry Nance hit the scene as a 6'10" SF.

Agree there. But the game was a lot different back then.

 

[AzStevenCal]

You're right. Alvan was the same 6'9' as Cowens at Center, but certainly not his match in the strength category.

Alvan crouching at Center reminds me of Lopez. It seems Robin has always tended to play shorter than his height, up until his most recent game -- his best in a long time. I hope that Bill Cartwright got through to him and Friday was not just a fluke.

The crouching reminds me also of Andrew Lang at Center for the Suns. He always crouched and brought the ball down low, on level with small Guards. One would think that any big man who has reached the NBA would know how to use his size.

Which brings us back to Adams. He just didn't have the size. If only John MacLeod had moved his college player to Small Forward in the Pro's -- at least until Larry Nance hit the scene as a 6'10" SF.

Wow! You really just want to hate on the guy don't you. First off, not in a million years could anyone reasonably compare that pose of Adams to the way Lopez crouches. I don't know what in the world you're looking at but Adams is taking a fairly common position and Lopez looks like he's trying tie his shoes.

And Alvan had absolutely no business playing small forward. He didn't have the game for it and despite your comments, he did have the game for the center position. He wasn't Kareem, he wasn't Unseld, he wasn't Cowans, he wasn't Walton, he wasn't Gilmore, he wasn't Lanier but he held his own against most of the rest including a very solid Jack Sikma.

Also, perhaps I missed it but I don't remember Nance really playing small forward for us. I remember him spending most of his career at the PF spot and then center once Daugherty retired.

Steve

 

[Mainstreet]

I'm not sure why Alvin Adams is catching flak. He was was not a physical specimen but he played the high post center position for the Suns quite well. He could hit the outside shot and passed the ball from this position to help run the offense. His career stats are 14.1 points, 7.0 rebounds 4.1 assists and 1.3 steals per game. Not too shabby for a 13 year career and good by any standards. It seems some posters want to criticize him for something that was not his fault. I wish he were tall like Kareem and physical like Cowens but it was not in the cards.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/adamsal01.html

 

[Mainstreet]

Wow! You really just want to hate on the guy don't you. First off, not in a million years could anyone reasonably compare that pose of Adams to the way Lopez crouches. I don't know what in the world you're looking at but Adams is taking a fairly common position and Lopez looks like he's trying tie his shoes.

And Alvan had absolutely no business playing small forward. He didn't have the game for it and despite your comments, he did have the game for the center position. He wasn't Kareem, he wasn't Unseld, he wasn't Cowans, he wasn't Walton, he wasn't Gilmore, he wasn't Lanier but he held his own against most of the rest including a very solid Jack Sikma.

Also, perhaps I missed it but I don't remember Nance really playing small forward for us. I remember him spending most of his career at the PF spot and then center once Daugherty retired.

Steve

BC867 wants to blame Alvin Adams for the Suns not having a stereotypical center. In regards to Nance, he could play all three positions upfront.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Are you kidding? Alvan is crouching and Cowans is standing straight up.

Of course. Adams was/is taller. I remember Al McCoy talking about that in that series.

 

[BC867]

I don't remember Nance really playing small forward for us. I remember him spending most of his career at the PF spot and then center once Daugherty retired.

Steve

Yes, Larry Nance was the Suns small forward.

When he arrived, it moved Walter Davis to 2-guard, a great move. As often as the Suns moved players to different positions, it was actually the only time in their history when they pulled a power move by making Nance the first of the 6'10" small forwards and moving Sweet D to guard.

The "2" and "3" positions were no longer interchangeable wings once Nance arrived. He spent 6 1/2 seasons with the Suns, then 6 1/2 with Cleveland, where he was moved to PF when he filled out.

You could say that Rick Robey went from being 3rd string center with Boston to starting power forward with the Suns. But to segue back to previous posts on this thread, our power forwards covered for Adams at center anyway. Which made Alvan our power forward in actuality, while that combination lasted. Too bad Robey was still 3rd string quality anyway. Too bad we gave up DJ, who helped Boston to another championship.

But things are different now. We have centers playing center. The rest of the roster not playing positions over their head. We're playing defense and rebounding. Life is good!

 

[Mainstreet]

But things are different now. We have centers playing center. The rest of the roster not playing positions over their head. We're playing defense and rebounding. Life is good!

I hope this translates into wins.

 

[Mainstreet]

Of course. Adams was/is taller. I remember Al McCoy talking about that in that series.

This is so interesting. I know that Cowens was not tall but it's hard to imagine the Suns had a center (Adams) that towered over him.

 

[BC867]

I hope this translates into wins.

It has so far, Mainstreet, it has so far.