The Psychology Involved With The Suns Winning The Next 3

[SirStefan32]

What really pisses me off when I look at that list is that all four of those guys were guys that actually played defense. They were our best defenders from the prior year. Yet Kerr "cares about defense because he played for the Spurs" which is laughable because Kerr never played defense in his entire career.

OMG, are you serious? He couldn't play defense as a player, so he can not possibly put any importance on defense as a GM? WOW.

 

[SirStefan32]

I guess the easiest thing in the world is to blame the high priced guy. When was the last time the Suns were competative on the boards? In the 2007 playoffs the Spurs outrebounded the Suns by 1.7 rebounds a game, even with KT. Over the course of the year the Suns were outrebounded by -2.3 per game.

With Shawn Marion this season the Suns were something like -5 in rebounding and after the trade were close to +2. In the Dec 17th loss in San Antonio, the Spurs outrebounded the Suns 49-38. In the Jan 31st loss in Phoenix, the Spurs outrebounded the Suns by 6.

After the trade: on Mar 9 the Suns outrebounded the Spurs 52 to 44. On Apr 9 in in San Antonio, the Suns outrebounded the Spurs 40-36

In game 1, the Spurs outrebounded the Suns by 1 rebound
In game 2, the Spurs outrebounded the Suns by 3 rebounds
In game 3, the Spurs outrebounded the Suns by 1 rebound
In game 4, the Suns outrebounded the Spurs by 1 rebound.

The trade was a gamble, but it was clear to me that the entire run and gun style was just not working for the Suns any more. The Suns had a horrible record against the West including 0 of 4 against the Hornets. IMHO, the Suns had to get bigger and no one without an ugly contract wanted Marion.

I think the run and gun style it COULD if the Suns had better shooters who could make their own shots. That was the real loss when JJ left. As it was, the Spurs showed they could just shut down the Suns catch and shoot outside game while permitting no fast breaks.

The sad truth is that the entire Western Conference got much bigger this season and the Suns were set up to road kill if they did not get a serious big man.

IMHO, the real problem in this series was that the Suns simply could not afford to be without a healthy Grant Hill. Ironically, his injury had nothing to do with his gimpy ankles, which was the main concern when he signed. Hill gave the Suns a solid defender who could bother Parker as well as an offensive player and rebounder. When he went down in Game 1, the Suns all but fell apart.

IMHO, blaming Shaq for the fact that the Suns could not replace Hill is just wrong.

Exactly!

 

[nowagimp]

I guess the easiest thing in the world is to blame the high priced guy. When was the last time the Suns were competative on the boards? In the 2007 playoffs the Spurs outrebounded the Suns by 1.7 rebounds a game, even with KT. Over the course of the year the Suns were outrebounded by -2.3 per game.

With Shawn Marion this season the Suns were something like -5 in rebounding and after the trade were close to +2. In the Dec 17th loss in San Antonio, the Spurs outrebounded the Suns 49-38. In the Jan 31st loss in Phoenix, the Spurs outrebounded the Suns by 6.

After the trade: on Mar 9 the Suns outrebounded the Spurs 52 to 44. On Apr 9 in in San Antonio, the Suns outrebounded the Spurs 40-36

In game 1, the Spurs outrebounded the Suns by 1 rebound
In game 2, the Spurs outrebounded the Suns by 3 rebounds
In game 3, the Spurs outrebounded the Suns by 1 rebound
In game 4, the Suns outrebounded the Spurs by 1 rebound.

The trade was a gamble, but it was clear to me that the entire run and gun style was just not working for the Suns any more. The Suns had a horrible record against the West including 0 of 4 against the Hornets. IMHO, the Suns had to get bigger and no one without an ugly contract wanted Marion.

I think the run and gun style it COULD if the Suns had better shooters who could make their own shots. That was the real loss when JJ left. As it was, the Spurs showed they could just shut down the Suns catch and shoot outside game while permitting no fast breaks.

The sad truth is that the entire Western Conference got much bigger this season and the Suns were set up to road kill if they did not get a serious big man.

IMHO, the real problem in this series was that the Suns simply could not afford to be without a healthy Grant Hill. Ironically, his injury had nothing to do with his gimpy ankles, which was the main concern when he signed. Hill gave the Suns a solid defender who could bother Parker as well as an offensive player and rebounder. When he went down in Game 1, the Suns all but fell apart.

IMHO, blaming Shaq for the fact that the Suns could not replace Hill is just wrong.

Yeah but blaming Kerr and sarver for ditching marion, JR, KT, and banks thereby needing Hill to play major minutes, and having no quick defender at guard is pretty much right on. And ASFN posters mostly just sucked it up as the defense went out the window.

 

[SirStefan32]

Yeah but blaming Kerr and sarver for ditching marion, JR, KT, and banks thereby needing Hill to play major minutes, and having no quick defender at guard is pretty much right on. And ASFN posters mostly just sucked it up as the defense went out the window.

I don't think anybody is going to say that losing JR, Kurt and picks for nothing was a good move. I will defend Shaq for Marion and Banks though.

 

[Irish]

I don't think anybody is going to say that losing JR, Kurt and picks for nothing was a good move. I will defend Shaq for Marion and Banks though.

This was my point. I can understand why the salary dump moves last summer are still painful. Just like the using those picks to dump Googs back in 2004. (I'm still pissed about that one). Another was using a pick to unload Brian Grant - another messed up decision. We can rehash every bad pick and poor signing until now to doomsday and it won't help unless someone has a time machine.

The only issue I was concerned about is whether the Shaq for Marion deal made sense. All in all, I think it has worked better than keeping Marion would have. I always opposed the pure salary dump deals that people kept coming up with for Marion, but there was a risk that his tendency to be a locker room problem was making Shawn a liability.

As it is, I've always felt Shawn was not much help in the half court offense. He cannot make his own shot and is a weak three point shooter (career 34.1%). With the Heat, he shot only 25.8% for three (after shooting 31.7% for three in 2006-07). With the Heat he shot only 45.9% after averaging over 50% with Nash and the run and gun Suns

It's not that Marion didn't make a big contribution to the Suns success, but he was never as good in the playoffs. As it was, even his defense of Parker was only relative. Parker averaged 20.8 ppg on 45.1%, so it wasn't like Marion played shut down defense on Parker. He could not defend on the inside without a lot of help.

The sad part about this was that the best lineup from a defensive standpoint included KT at PF and Marion at SF. But with Marion being no serious threat in the half court offense and KT limited to jump shots; the Suns offense broke down while only slightly slowing down the Spurs.

The unusual aspect of last year's series was the Marion actually shot better against the Spurs than during the regular season. This was mostly because he was left wide open and he went through one of his infrequent hot streaks (8 of 17 for three). But in the first round he shot only 23.5%.

In the end, Marion was only marginally effective in the playoffs even when he was at the top of his game. With the Suns inability to beat the Western Conference teams, it was clear that Marion was no longer at the top of his game.

 

[nowagimp]

This was my point. I can understand why the salary dump moves last summer are still painful. Just like the using those picks to dump Googs back in 2004. (I'm still pissed about that one). Another was using a pick to unload Brian Grant - another messed up decision. We can rehash every bad pick and poor signing until now to doomsday and it won't help unless someone has a time machine.

You have to assign the blame for the state of the franchise to those who make the decisions. The decisions made this past year were made by the same people. marion ,KT, JR, Banks + picks for shaq plus cash. These guys are big boys and need to stand behind their decisions, giving them a free pass confuses the issue of who is responsible for trashing the teams title hopes. You can also add to sarvers(but not kerrs) resume the loss of JJ. Just call it like it is, refusal to understand the problem means the problem remains. When DA is fired this offseason, the myopic fan base will believe that the problems have been addressed, thus buying management more time to screw things up even more. The spurs front office is noted as the best in the NBA, the suns, well .....

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Those against the Shaq trade then, are using this series as evidence that it did not work. But really, I ask you, if we'd had Marion would we have miraculously won game 1, 2 or 3? Probably not. Nothing in those games was won or loss by one player. So in my opinion it has nothing to do with the Shaq trade.

Having Shaq helps us on the boards, and in team defense. Also he is a presence on the offensive end. More importantly he's a true center, which almost seems impossible to find anymore. Oh and the turnovers are more on Nash turning it over on the pick and roll now. Again, little to do with Shaq and/or not having Marion.

I really disagree with anyone who says the trade was bad. They got a true center. This team just got off to a bad start in this series and had an epically bad game 3.

I have been against the Shaq trade because it was a moronic trade.

You gave away a huge expiring deal to take on 40 million in salary and you can't even get an extra second round pick out of it? It's not just Shaq for Marion you know.

And Shaq hasn't done **** for our defense. We still routinely let guys shoot 50%. Our points allowed are down slightly because we are taking less shots.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

ya everyone was hating the shaq trade at first.. then we started getting some big wins and everyone absolutely LOVED the shaq trade even the haters came back and said ya i was wrong..

now that we are about to be ousted from the playoffs everyone hates it again..

holy **** you people are some sheep.. get a backbone..

My tune doesn't change. The trade was a bad trade and I have said so since the beginning. Kerr is a joke of a GM.

 

[Covert Rain]

We should have gotten more out of the trade but it wasn't a bad one. Having Marion in a Suns uniform would have made zero difference. Really you just traded perimeter defense and one on one defense for a true center with in the paint presence and rebounding. In the end if it doesn't get us a title then I say it was a push from a player standpoint. We were not going to win a title as is.

We have another year of Shaq but after that we will have some cap space. Marion was going to use his player option no matter what. So, that was going to cost us almost as much right? So, for next year it's nearly a push. In either scenario Marion or Shaq's dollars would have come off the books by the end next year right?

Sorry but to me it's only a bad trade if we traded away the opportunity for a title. We didn't. Marion wasn't going to get us any closer. You just traded away one set of skills for another in the hopes it would get you the title. Besides, I am not convinced as others Marion had all this trade value. People have been offering crap for him for years. It was a worthy gamble IMO.

 

[btimsah]

I have been against the Shaq trade because it was a moronic trade.

You gave away a huge expiring deal to take on 40 million in salary and you can't even get an extra second round pick out of it? It's not just Shaq for Marion you know.

And Shaq hasn't done **** for our defense. We still routinely let guys shoot 50%. Our points allowed are down slightly because we are taking less shots.

You must not be watching the same games I'm watching. The team defense has clearly been better since the Shaq trade. Even with playing some great teams later in the season.

You keep critizing the "Shaq" trade but you don't seem all that concerned with Marion. Marion wanted out of Phoenix and has for 2 years. Obviously not a lot of teams wanted him. Imo this series being 3-1 has little to nothing to do with trade. Oh and I was against the trade. Something that will never change is that Nash has to guard someone and when he doesn't have a Bowen to hide on his defense is always going to be a problem. He's just a small li'l guy.

The Shaq trade was a necessity because it got rid of a team cancer in Marion. I know they could have gotten more for it and that's worth criticism.. I just think it's lame to bring that up now in a series thats not been decided by the trade.

 

[nashman]

^ What he said, the trade was not a bad trade it immediately helped our team and we have seen this team win games against good teams since the trade. Games that probally were losses the way the team was headed with Marion and Banks.