The Sky is Falling

[SunsTzu]

If keeping Nash prevents the Suns from getting Kemba Walker then I really want to keep Nash.

 

[Evil Ash]

You bring up Boston as an example when blowing it up lead to success for them, funny.

How do you think they picked up Garnett? By moving the assets they got from blowing it up just like Ray Allen.

Minnesota never was that good of a team to begin with.

Of course there are examples of teams who never got good again but that is due to bad management and bad draft picks.

On the other hand show me a team that stayed mediocre all the time and eventually became a contender? That is not happening at some point we will be so bad that we will get high lottery pick anyway Babby is just forcing us to wait for this another 2-3 years while we watch this poopy mediocre team struggle to reach .500.


Miami, Orlando, Cleveland, New Orleans, Portland, Utah, San Antonio, Denver, Oklahoma, Chicago ALL of them were bad and than became good after a good high draft pick or multiple draft picks

It is Babby's job to make sure we follow that route and not Golden States or the Clippers.

By having Al Jefferson who was considered a young developing BIG. Nash isn't going to get you what Al Jefferson is going to get you in return. Not even close

 

[BC867]

It also seems that Gentry hasn't realized how bad this team really is since he thinks they are still good and blowing it up would make it hard to become good again when in reality we are an old as dirt declining mediocre team already.

Again I disagree with you on this point. I don't think there is anyone on this board who believes that Gentry doesn't realize exactly what he has been given to work with by the out-with-the-old-in-with-the-new Front Office and their two major sets of roster changes this season.

Keeping us in second place in the Division, just two games below .500, has been a major accomplishment for Alvin Gentry.

We would be at .500 right now if Carter hadn't let us down with the Oklahoma City game on the line. But his disappointments and those of Pietrus are worth it to have Gortat in the post, who now has to adjust to being double-teamed so often, so soon.

 

[mojorizen7]

Babby is right. Blowing it up is usually a path to years of mediocrity. Unless you have specific plan and the players you already know you want, its a disaster.

Look at Minnesota and Boston. Minny blew it up. Boston was bad too, but picked Garnett and literally turned it around in one summer.

By keeping Nash & Hill here for 2 more years and continuing to recycle around them....mediocrity is exactly what we're going to get.....that IS the specific plan.
There is no vision here from Sarver,Babby and co.

Wake me when up when all the names i mentioned above are gone.

 

[slinslin]

I agree. Unless we are getting back quality young players, extra picks (good ones), or clearing space to go after a free agent (that we already have targeted, and no, there is not one on the market this summer that looks like a fit), then having the possibility of picking earlier in the draft does not make that much of a difference.

Picking earlier makes a huge difference. First of all it gives you a better chance to move into the top3 on lottery day as Atlanta did when we should have had their pick.

Second of all it means less teams picking infront of you that might target the same player, it means more players on the board, likely more good players still in the draft pool.

As I said all the top power forward prospects will likely go in the top 10.

Please go back and check what a couple of spots difference can mean. From the top of my head I am thinking New York at #8 and Golden State at #7 when New York wanted Stephen Curry badly but ended up with Jordan Hill who they traded in his rookie season.

 

[Magnus]

Picking earlier gives you a much better chance, yes. But that doesn't mean neccesarily that the team won't strike lucky and get a really good player in the later part of the draft. I mean, look at Landry Fields. He was a 2nd round pick, 39th overall, and he's playing extremely well for the Knicks.

All in all, it's a lottery

 

[CaptainInsano]

It is all just so stupid to me I could almost be sick. Right now there are FIVE teams that are all in contention for the 8th seed in the west for gods sake, is it really a good idea to roll the dice on believing we are going to get into the playofffs in that type of competition? For an 8th seed? Just to get thoroughly wrecked by our nemesis spurs? Come the F on.

You pretty much cannot have much better and more obvious of a scenario that it is time to blow it up, and yet here we are. It is just all so flat out stupid and shameful at this point, no common sense or really any thought process from our FO, just money money money from a first round exit. Shameful.

 

[chickenhead]

What do you guys think is being offered in return for Steve Nash?

Joe

+1

Trading for trading's sake is not the same as rebuilding. I am not against trading Nash in the right deal, nor am I much interested in competing for the #8 spot indefinitely. But the whole idea of "trade him while he still has value" depends on the value. The player who comes back brings his own set of financial liabilities to the payroll. And if in the end it "allows" the Suns to slide a few spots in the standings and get a slightly higher pick, but the player they select would have been available with the lower pick--of God forbid the player selected in their old spot turns out to be the better player--than where is the value?

So the bottom line is that I'm ready to be convinced that a trade is the right move, but I'm not going to agitate for any trade.

 

[boisesuns]

The question is, can we trade and get more value for nash than the player we might convince to come here with his cap $ once his contract is up?

 

[elindholm]

Three of last season's top six scorers (Stoudemire, Richardson, Barbosa) are gone, replaced by a de facto expiring contract (Carter), younger talent, increased cap space, and an extra draft pick. Aside from giving Nash away just for the sake of doing it, how much more rebuilding do you want?

 

[mojorizen7]

Three of last season's top six scorers (Stoudemire, Richardson, Barbosa) are gone, replaced by a de facto expiring contract (Carter), younger talent, increased cap space, and an extra draft pick. Aside from giving Nash away just for the sake of doing it, how much more rebuilding do you want?

Thats called recycling around Nashball,not rebuilding.

 

[slinslin]

Three of last season's top six scorers (Stoudemire, Richardson, Barbosa) are gone, replaced by a de facto expiring contract (Carter), younger talent, increased cap space, and an extra draft pick. Aside from giving Nash away just for the sake of doing it, how much more rebuilding do you want?

Younger talent? Where??

Pretty sure we got older if you exclude the scrubs Siler, Lawal and Dowdell.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Younger talent? Where??

Pretty sure we got older if you exclude the scrubs Siler, Lawal and Dowdell.

Frye (new contract), Gortat, Childress, Dudley (extension), and Warrick are a younger average age than Richardson, Amare, and Barbosa. If you consider Amare's age in "knee years" its even more of a descrepancy. Vince Carter does not count since he is an expiring we never planned on keeping.

 

[slinslin]

Oh Vince Carter does not count but Dudley and Frye who we already had counts, not even mentioning that Dudley wasn't even RFA.

Way to fake statistics.

 

[Chaplin]

Oh Vince Carter does not count but Dudley and Frye who we already had counts, not even mentioning that Dudley wasn't even RFA.

Way to fake statistics.

What is your problem? Seriously. You are trying so hard to come up with every conceivable excuse to hate the Suns, and yet your only solution is to draft. Drafting is one way to move things along, but it's not the only way.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Oh Vince Carter does not count but Dudley and Frye who we already had counts, not even mentioning that Dudley wasn't even RFA.

Way to fake statistics.

I think I explained it well enough. If you consider it faking statistics, fine.

 

[jagu]

What is your problem? Seriously. You are trying so hard to come up with every conceivable excuse to hate the Suns, and yet your only solution is to draft. Drafting is one way to move things along, but it's not the only way.

+2 for you
-2 for Slinslin

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Babby is right. Blowing it up is usually a path to years of mediocrity. Unless you have specific plan and the players you already know you want, its a disaster.

Look at Minnesota and Boston. Minny blew it up. Boston was bad too, but picked Garnett and literally turned it around in one summer.

you do realize that the only reason boston could do that was b/c they sucked badly enough to have a draft pick high enough to trade for the pieces they needed to turn it around.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

In conclusion, it's a huge risk with a very low percentage succes rate. Is it really the only thing left to do? Remember how bad the Suns looked like before the Gortrat trade, and now after that it looks a lot more like a real NBA team. Maybe another trade like that can give Suns an extra push. I don't know, I think this team just needs to be paitent.

some of you guys seemingly think, "hey we just made a trade that seemingly made us better, why not keep doing that?"

the problem is, we only had one really servicable player who wasn't ancient and was an expiring contract . . . j-rich. there is no other player on this team that had his unique set of facts and circumstances. hedo was a throw-in, but he was a throw-in that really only would have been seen as valuable to a single team . . . orlando. we just don't have any more of those types of chits left in our basket. nash has some value, but that's tantamount to blowing it up (of which i'm in favor), so that doesn't work with your concept of "[m]aybe another trade like that can give Suns an extra push." there isn't
"another trade like that" possible with the remaining parts imo. hill doesn't qualify - too old. pietrus doesn't qualify - not good enough. carter doesn't qualify - not consistent enough (though he's the closest piece conceptually).

 

[Chaplin]

Oddly enough, the Magic aren't particularly happy with JRich.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Except for the Spurs, every other team has gone through rough times before they got good. Staying with the #14 pick every season doesnt help us at all.

and it REALLY doesn't help us in this day and age where high schoolers are not available during the draft. it's very rare these days that a team ends up with a superstud surprise in the teens. in the days of the high schoolers it was more probable b/c there was a big risk with those players, you just didn't know what you might get. hence a kobe could fall into the low teens. that doesn't happen anymore. and, scouting has seemingly gotten a lot better too. sure there are your occasional boozer/arenas guys that sneak through, but those are rare. who are the last teen-selected superstars?

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Picking earlier gives you a much better chance, yes. But that doesn't mean neccesarily that the team won't strike lucky and get a really good player in the later part of the draft. I mean, look at Landry Fields. He was a 2nd round pick, 39th overall, and he's playing extremely well for the Knicks.

All in all, it's a lottery

"playing extremely well" and being a potential franchise player are two widely disparate things. yeah you can get a good player later, but the odds decrease exponentially of that happening, and even then it's usually just a good player, not a franchise player. and a host of good players leaves you in the middle of the pack. it takes a franchise player to be a contender. a team full of landry fields isn't winning a lot.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Oddly enough, the Magic aren't particularly happy with JRich.

sucks for them. glad we finally won a trade for a change.

 

[jagu]

Don't forget about Turkoglu..

``I don’t like the way that he’s playing at all. I don’t like his decision-making or his energy at all,’’ Van Gundy said. ``Usually with Turk there will be two or three plays that are a little crazy, but for the most part I think his decisions are good. He might not make shots, but at least he’s making the right decisions as to what to do. But I’ve never been through a stretch with him where the majority of the plays that he’s making I’m sort of saying, `What the (heck) is he doing?’ He comes off a pick and has a lane to the basket and he’s shooting the step-back jumper.

http://www.nba.com/magic/news/denton_feature_020711.html

 

[Covert Rain]

Oddly enough, the Magic aren't particularly happy with JRich.

Ironically enough.....can you imagine how much more explosive this team would be if we reacquired him somehow?

Subtract Vince Carter and put JRich back on this team and this team could probably do some damage. I am not saying title...I am saying damage.

Orlando got rid of Carter because they thought they could get more out of of the combo of JRich/Turk right away but it's been an adjustment. It's looking better though. JRich as scored 15+ points in 12 out of the last 19. Put up more then 18 points 11 out of the last 19. If they are not happy about that then ship him back. The Suns will take that over Carter in a heart beat.

I didn't find much negative though in Orlando articles. Everyone is talking about Turks "re-slump". After tearing it up for a stretch, he is back to not producing and making stupid decisions. I am not sure the disappointment is with JRich as much as the overall result of the trade.