The Truth About Leinart and Warner

[earthsci]

If Whiz thinks that they are even close to even then Leinart should start. He will get better, Warner has hit the ceiling. If he starts chocking like a dog, yank him, we need to win.

 

[BigRedRage]

Now, you don't really know what Whis thinks, do you?
My list was to illustrate that I could come up with just as many names(or more) that have put up poor stat's to start their career and never got better. Many seem to be using Eli as some kind of proof that a team should always stick with their young QB and eventually it will lead to post season success. This discussion gets muddied because Warner was in NY and now in Arizona but he wasn't the same QB in NY that he is now. 2002-2006 Warner had physical limitations that meant he could not sustain a starter's job. It appears that the gloves have reduced that and he is playing with 1999-2001 form. The better comparison, to me, is Eli and Leinart are both being forced into action because of the size of their contract.
I think you go with the shot at the playoffs when you can get it. I understand not wanting to worry about the QB position but with Warner you've got a guy who is a good leader, puts up good numbers and can lead the team to wins. With Leinart...? No one knows. Is he going to be another high round bust for the Cards or not? I don't understand why, if you want a solid/good QB you'd toss out the guy who's putting up good numbers for the guy who's been on a steady decline since very early success. Leinart isn't getting progressively better, he's progressively getting worse. Oh, and that whole "get's injured every year" thing. He's also signed 'til 2011. What's so horrible about Warner in 08 and 09(if he's still producing at a high level) and then Leinart in 10 and 11?
That's true but his best season was last year. Leinart hasn't looked so promising since his third start in 06. Actually, now that I think about it, I don't agree with Warner only having one good year since 02. His seasons have been relatively good. The fumbilitis was the actual issue with him. That seems to have been reduced to an acceptable level.
Again, I don't disagree with the sentiment but I don't see any name on that list who had the type of production Warner offers as an option. Before anyone points to Kitna, the writing was on the wall and he knew it and had a huge dropoff in 04 before he was benched.

actually, I could quote whiz saying matt is the future, he is impressed with matt and he wants matt to start.

 

[moklerman]

he is impressed with matt and he wants matt to start.

That still falls under the mind-reading category. For all we know, he may secretly want St. Pierre to start.

Your arguement just turned absolutley ridiculous. McNown? Is that really whom you want to try and consider as a possible comparison to Matt?

No, I'm not comparing "them", just their numbers. Leinart isn't in McNown's dubious class but neither has Leinart shown himself to be the consummate professional.

I understand you like Warner and that makes you biased, we all do it with what ever we feel strongly about. But lets at least be realistic with our biases.

I agree with you but I don't think McNown's character issues alone were his problem. His onfield performance had the largest part to do with him failing. He had a lot more fumbles than Leinart as well so statistically, Leinart is better overall at this point but the teams McNown were on were a lot worse. Leinart has been given some pretty good protection for the most part and McNown was constantly running for his life. That kind of balances things and although Leinart is a little better, statistically they are in the very same class.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

you have no idea who is right.

Nobody knows who is right or wrong better or worse.

We are debating that now.

No need to get fired up about ....myself included.

 

[moklerman]

Nobody knows who is right or wrong better or worse.

Hey, I'm always right. It's just a conspiracy by the rest of the world to make it appear that I'm wrong.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Hey, I'm always right. It's just a conspiracy by the rest of the world to make it appear that I'm wrong.

Tell me about it.


I told the Lottery Commision the same thing about my pick 6 numbers and they just didn't understand that they got thier numbers wrong, people these days.

 

[moklerman]

I told the Lottery Commision the same thing about my pick 6 numbers and they just didn't understand that they got thier numbers wrong, people these days.

Lottery? Money? You're one of them aren't you? Whatever I want should just be given to me. What is this talk of money?

 

[D-Dogg]

Some Laker avatar or something of a front runner type fan thing.

Did you not see the small type when you quoted me? I had a Sasha avatar.

And no, I'm not a front runner Laker fan.

 

[Mulli]

Did you not see the small type when you quoted me? I had a Sasha avatar.

And no, I'm not a front runner Laker fan.

Because the Lakers are not in front. the Celtics are!!

woot!

 

[cardsfanmd]

Stop the presses! We agree on a topic. OMG

You must be getting smarter in your old age.

 

[chickenhead]

I have to admit, I'm still intrigued by the two-headed monster we had last year. It makes it that much harder for opposing defenses to plan for the Cards, and the rest of the offense seemed to respond to the changes in pace. I understand that it could be an ego blow to the "starting" QB, but in a positive light it actually takes some pressure off. It's definitely better than switching QBs game-to-game. Running backs all around the league have learned to adapt, I see no reason why this can't be effective at QB.

Of course, you have to have the right personnel to do it. You would never split time between Peyton Manning and someone else, for example, and ultimately Leinart will probably be the sole starter unless he flames out--but in the meantime I think it could work for us.

 

[joeshmo]

The fumbilitis was the actual issue with him. That seems to have been reduced to an acceptable level.

This doesnt make any sense. If it was fixed to an acceptable level then why are they making that the focus of his training this offseason?

 

[joeshmo]

That's true but his best season was last year. Leinart hasn't looked so promising since his third start in 06.

This is where your Warner blinders become obvious. You cannot honestly believe that he hasnt show any promise since the Chicago game?

What about his game against Detriot, STL, Seattle, S.F. to end the year of 2006. All of those games he very much so showed great promise. I can even throw the Minny game in there where the coaching staff ask him to put the whole offense on his back because they decided from the get go to only run the ball 6 times during the game, in that situation that was a really good promising game coming from a rookie with no run game what so ever. In 2007 he showed something versus Seattle, and showed promise leading the O in the game winning drive.

You can make your case for Warner very well and until Matt proves he can do what Warner did last year I cant come up with a solid enough arguement against that case. But in that process you dont have to make bad thought out comments about his competition to try and raise Warner up.

Its like the people trying to knock down Fitz a peg to make Boldins pedistal higher, or vice versa.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

Stopped reading after: THE TRUTH...

 

[Cards232]

Some of you folks need to get a better understanding of this whole turnover montra. It's one thing to criticize a qb for to's if he's flat out making stupid throws & decisions frequently. It's quite another thing if a qb is making to's b/c he's trying to make the play. The qb's that play it safe rarely, if ever, become the great ones.

Take a look at Warner's int. numbers circa 99-01. He was a three time MVP! He became the MVP by trying to make plays. He had a lot of int's those 3 years, he also had a ton of td's! In 2001, Warner threw 22 int.'s & had 10 fumbles. What a turnover machine! Oh, he also won the MVP as I recall.

At some point, the great qb's learn to trust their receivers to make the play. Sometimes that leads to int's, more often than not however, it leads to great plays. If Warner had had a miserable year last year in the td dept., perhaps some of you would have a point in slamming him. But of course that's not the case, & he played the majority of those games w/ one arm to boot!

Let me give you 2 prime examples of what I'm talking about. In the 1980 SB, Bradshaw throws 3 int.s yet still wins the game as well as the MVP. In the NFC playoff game between the Niners & Cowboys best known for "the catch" to win the game for the Niners, Montana also throws 3 int's that game. In either of those examples, if they lose those games instead, Bradshaw & Montana go down as goats. Funny thing, this perspective thing. Also, a very important side note, both of those teams had great defenses as well as the Rams in 99, 01 w/ Warner.

One last thing that bares mentioning, all those teams, & many more we could all point to as well, had receivers that ran great routes, great running games, as well as great o-lines. We had none of those last year. All of those areas improved markedly, but were far from great none the less. I like Fitz & his potential & athleticism, but he runs some of the worst routes in the league at his level. All of these areas will undoubtedly improve yet again this season which will benefit whoever is qb.

So in short, one must look at the whole picture when evaluating the performance of qb's. The WHOLE picture would leave me to believe that Warner actually had a spectacular year last year given the circumstances & was indeed one of the best qb's in the league let alone this team.

It will be interesting to see if Leinart plays it safe this year b/c of the pressure by football illiterate fans to not turn the ball over. He's smart enough to push the envelope intelligently. The question is, will he? No need ask what Warner will/would do. Warner has already shown his greatness. Will Leinart do likewise this year?

 

[Skkorpion]

Interesting post Cards232. You made some valid points.

 

[Mitch]

Interesting post Cards232. You made some valid points.

Ditto, Cards 232.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

I haven't read all the posts so excuse me if I am repeating this but why is all the Warner fanatics fail to realize that both Wiz and Haley don't want Warner to start? It's just not the kind of team they envision.

Not because Leinart is a first round pick and the "chosen one". But because Warner is a TURNOVER MACHINE.

Every quote since the end of the season has had Wiz and Haley profess amazement at what he does but wary of his turnovers.

They have annoited Leinart as the starter because he is safer and runs the ball control offense they want. They are being wishy washy because they know if Leinart implodes, Warner is an A+ insurance policy.

Its not that difficult. Let Leinart prove he doesn't deserve the job and then go to you back up cannon. Warner has alot to like and brings things to the table Leinart cannot yet. But he turns over the ball too much.

Plain and simple.

 

[moklerman]

You cannot honestly believe that he hasnt show any promise since the Chicago game?

I didn't say he hasn't shown "any" promise, just that he hasn't looked as good as he did during those first couple of starts. The Seattle game was the one game that I mentioned where he had more than 1 TD pass. During the games you mentioned, his passing efficiency and yardage were pretty much the best he's ever done but it makes me wonder if the numbers are somewhat misleading since there aren't any TD's to accompany them. I'm not suggesting giving up on him but his overall performance thus far is very pedestrian and there is a very viable option for now.

But in that process you dont have to make bad thought out comments about his competition to try and raise Warner up.

I'm sorry it seems that way, I don't think I was exaggerating any of my points or statistics though so we may have to just disagree.

This doesnt make any sense. If it was fixed to an acceptable level then why are they making that the focus of his training this offseason?

If you're limiting it to either "acceptable" or "unacceptable" it wouldn't make sense. However, I think there are other options. His ball protection is much improved over 2002-2006 but there is still room for more improvement. The fumbles are at an acceptable enough level that he's able to stay on the field and from what I saw, he isn't simply dropping the ball like in the past. He is putting himself in situations where the ball is stripped or knocked loose but, in my opinion, that's far different than when he was just unable to handle the ball. I think that's what they're working on. Getting rid of it more quickly and protecting it with both hands while in the pocket. Those are just fundamentals that have never seemed to be a priority for Warner.

It makes it that much harder for opposing defenses to plan for the Cards,

I don't think either QB wants to be a part of that experiment at this point and I don't think it would be nearly as effective as it was last year. Whis surprised a couple of pretty good teams by doing something that most teams wouldn't do. Now that there's film on it, I don't think the league would be terribly unprepared for it.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Some of you folks need to get a better understanding of this whole turnover montra. It's one thing to criticize a qb for to's if he's flat out making stupid throws & decisions frequently. It's quite another thing if a qb is making to's b/c he's trying to make the play. The qb's that play it safe rarely, if ever, become the great ones.

Take a look at Warner's int. numbers circa 99-01. He was a three time MVP! He became the MVP by trying to make plays. He had a lot of int's those 3 years, he also had a ton of td's! In 2001, Warner threw 22 int.'s & had 10 fumbles. What a turnover machine! Oh, he also won the MVP as I recall.

At some point, the great qb's learn to trust their receivers to make the play. Sometimes that leads to int's, more often than not however, it leads to great plays. If Warner had had a miserable year last year in the td dept., perhaps some of you would have a point in slamming him. But of course that's not the case, & he played the majority of those games w/ one arm to boot!

Let me give you 2 prime examples of what I'm talking about. In the 1980 SB, Bradshaw throws 3 int.s yet still wins the game as well as the MVP. In the NFC playoff game between the Niners & Cowboys best known for "the catch" to win the game for the Niners, Montana also throws 3 int's that game. In either of those examples, if they lose those games instead, Bradshaw & Montana go down as goats. Funny thing, this perspective thing. Also, a very important side note, both of those teams had great defenses as well as the Rams in 99, 01 w/ Warner.

One last thing that bares mentioning, all those teams, & many more we could all point to as well, had receivers that ran great routes, great running games, as well as great o-lines. We had none of those last year. All of those areas improved markedly, but were far from great none the less. I like Fitz & his potential & athleticism, but he runs some of the worst routes in the league at his level. All of these areas will undoubtedly improve yet again this season which will benefit whoever is qb.

So in short, one must look at the whole picture when evaluating the performance of qb's. The WHOLE picture would leave me to believe that Warner actually had a spectacular year last year given the circumstances & was indeed one of the best qb's in the league let alone this team.

It will be interesting to see if Leinart plays it safe this year b/c of the pressure by football illiterate fans to not turn the ball over. He's smart enough to push the envelope intelligently. The question is, will he? No need ask what Warner will/would do. Warner has already shown his greatness. Will Leinart do likewise this year?

Perspective is one thing and you make good points.

But in both your analogies on the decisive play they MADE the play. Not turned over the ball. The problem with Warner is he does it at the worst possible time, at least at this point in his career. For proof look to the SF game at home and the New Orleans game. Those are times you need a QB to protect the ball AND make the play. But most importantly protect the ball so you live another day.

Thats the difference between Joe Cool and modern day Warner.

 

[Mitch]

I think we'd all be delirious if Leinart is lights out from the start this year.

So would the Cardinals coaches.

But...the truth is...they like Warner for their system better.

They didn't draft Leinart.

Prediction: Cards draft a QB next year.

 

[jefftheshark]

I haven't read all the posts so excuse me if I am repeating this but why is all the Warner fanatics fail to realize that both Wiz and Haley don't want Warner to start? It's just not the kind of team they envision.

Not because Leinart is a first round pick and the "chosen one". But because Warner is a TURNOVER MACHINE.

Every quote since the end of the season has had Wiz and Haley profess amazement at what he does but wary of his turnovers.

They have annoited Leinart as the starter because he is safer and runs the ball control offense they want. They are being wishy washy because they know if Leinart implodes, Warner is an A+ insurance policy.

Its not that difficult. Let Leinart prove he doesn't deserve the job and then go to you back up cannon. Warner has alot to like and brings things to the table Leinart cannot yet. But he turns over the ball too much.

Plain and simple.

I agree with what you are concluding, but would disagree with how you get there.

While the turnovers are game killers, I think the reason the Cards want to see Leinart take the reins is because he is the future of the team, while Warner will soon be the past. Cards232 brings up some good points, but the Warner who was winning multiple MVP's just doesn't exist anymore. His skill set is eroding; as do the skills of any player who is still playing late into his 30's.

Edge was quoted this offseason about how the game plan changed after Leinart got hurt. To me this shows that the coaching staff wanted to implement a type of football strategy different from what Warner brings to the table, but was forced to play the hand that Leinart's injury dealt them. To think that the coaches would now toss that original gameplan and philosophy out the window because Warner didn't completely stink the place up, is in my mind complete folly.

JMHO

JTS

 

[Buckybird]

I haven't read all the posts so excuse me if I am repeating this but why is all the Warner fanatics fail to realize that both Wiz and Haley don't want Warner to start? It's just not the kind of team they envision.

Not because Leinart is a first round pick and the "chosen one". But because Warner is a TURNOVER MACHINE.

Every quote since the end of the season has had Wiz and Haley profess amazement at what he does but wary of his turnovers.

They have annoited Leinart as the starter because he is safer and runs the ball control offense they want. They are being wishy washy because they know if Leinart implodes, Warner is an A+ insurance policy.

Its not that difficult. Let Leinart prove he doesn't deserve the job and then go to you back up cannon. Warner has alot to like and brings things to the table Leinart cannot yet. But he turns over the ball too much.

Plain and simple.

Not to mention we still don't have the physical line or the running game Wiz had in Pittsburgh. Although better than 2 years ago, I still have doubts about how good this O-line can be. I don't think it will be much better if at all than last season. Gandy has his best season at OT, Wells has been graded as the most consistant performer (even though people on this board still see big mistakes from him), Al Johnson is solid at best, Deuce may never live up to his draft status and Levi played solid through injuries, but is probably playing out of position. Is the line better? Yes, but to run the football on a regular basis you have to have a VERY good line!!! Do we have that? I don't think so. Not to mention our lack of speed in the backfield with James and Hightower. I'm not mentioning Shipp and Arrington because this team never lets them carry the ball. Tell me why we draft a tackle in the 7th round that weighs 345 lbs? I hear Keith has some talent, but the teams in the league that run the football well in the league right now, do not have kids that weigh this much playing tackle. Prove me wrong Cards, but I think our O-line is still a concern.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Prediction: Cards draft a QB next year.

I'll take you up on that bet too.

Ridiculous.

Let's draft a QB before we ever even know what we have with a guy that has a HUGE upside, and 3 years of learning the NFL system.

It is just stupid.

 

[Cards232]

I haven't read all the posts so excuse me if I am repeating this but why is all the Warner fanatics fail to realize that both Wiz and Haley don't want Warner to start? It's just not the kind of team they envision.

Not because Leinart is a first round pick and the "chosen one". But because Warner is a TURNOVER MACHINE.

Every quote since the end of the season has had Wiz and Haley profess amazement at what he does but wary of his turnovers.

They have annoited Leinart as the starter because he is safer and runs the ball control offense they want. They are being wishy washy because they know if Leinart implodes, Warner is an A+ insurance policy.

Its not that difficult. Let Leinart prove he doesn't deserve the job and then go to you back up cannon. Warner has alot to like and brings things to the table Leinart cannot yet. But he turns over the ball too much.

Plain and simple.

Warner was a turnover machine in 2001 as mentioned above. Just out of curiosity AF, would you have sat Warner in place of Leinart due to all those T.O.'s? Would you have thought it wise for Wis. to do likewise for ball control purposes?

We have potential to make a lot of noise this year given the whole picture. Next year, we may lose Warner, Boldin, & perhaps others that would change the dynamic of what we have THIS year. We could go a long ways this year. We know what we have w/ Warner, we don't know yet w/ Lienart. Do you really want to bet on the come in hopes that we still have everything in place, that Lienart progresses, that the f.o. makes all the right moves next year, a couple of years from now?

I personally would rather take the sure thing now & see what happens in the future, in the future. The Card fans have seen what betting on the come has produced for decades. The cards are in place (no pun intended) this year. I say it is wise to take advantage of that this year rather than wait to see what may progress in years to come. Just my opinion of course.