The Truth About Leinart and Warner

[earthsci]

Warner was a turnover machine in 2001 as mentioned above. Just out of curiosity AF, would you have sat Warner in place of Leinart due to all those T.O.'s? Would you have thought it wise for Wis. to do likewise for ball control purposes?

We have potential to make a lot of noise this year given the whole picture. Next year, we may lose Warner, Boldin, & perhaps others that would change the dynamic of what we have THIS year. We could go a long ways this year. We know what we have w/ Warner, we don't know yet w/ Lienart. Do you really want to bet on the come in hopes that we still have everything in place, that Lienart progresses, that the f.o. makes all the right moves next year, a couple of years from now?

I personally would rather take the sure thing now & see what happens in the future, in the future. The Card fans have seen what betting on the come has produced for decades. The cards are in place (no pun intended) this year. I say it is wise to take advantage of that this year rather than wait to see what may progress in years to come. Just my opinion of course.

Like I said before, my main (only) interest is seeing the Cardinals win. Whether with Warner or Leinart. Warner ceiling is dropping and Leinart's has (hopefully) not been realized. So in light of that, everything else being equal, it would be better for the team to start Leinart. I'll trust Whiz's opinion, not yours.

 

[Cards232]

Perspective is one thing and you make good points.

But in both your analogies on the decisive play they MADE the play. Not turned over the ball. The problem with Warner is he does it at the worst possible time, at least at this point in his career. For proof look to the SF game at home and the New Orleans game. Those are times you need a QB to protect the ball AND make the play. But most importantly protect the ball so you live another day.

Thats the difference between Joe Cool and modern day Warner.

Remember, the whole picture! The whole picture is that Joe Cool & yesterday's Warner had far better packages (teams) to work with. How do you feel Montana would have faired w/ the Saints of the 80's? If Montana would have been w/ the Saints, the only way he would have gone to the HOF would have been w/ a paid ticket.

Warner threw for 27 td's last year. He did that in less than 16 games, w/ one arm tied behind his back, w/ a team far less than the Niners or Rams of yester year. Are you kidding me? How do you think pretty boy from the Patriots, or Manning, etc. do under those circumstances? Perspective man, perspective.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Take a look at Warner's int. numbers circa 99-01. He was a three time MVP! He became the MVP by trying to make plays. He had a lot of int's those 3 years, he also had a ton of td's! In 2001, Warner threw 22 int.'s & had 10 fumbles. What a turnover machine! Oh, he also won the MVP as I recall.

Since 2001:

Kurt Warner has not start for 16 straight games.

Kurt Warner has had one good season out of the last seven.

Kurt Warner has fumbled the ball over 10 times in three out of those seven seasons, in 2002 he had 8 fumbles in 7 games, and in 2003 he had 6 fumbles in two games.

Kurt Warner is now 37 years old, Brett Farve just retired at age 38.

Is Kurt Warner a good QB ? Yes.

Is he capable of starting and producing ? HECK yes.

Can he get through an entire season ? Probably not, but he is tough as heck.

Does Kurt Warner deserve a shot a the starting spot ? Of course.

Should Kurt Warner be handed the starting spot over Leinart ? NO

The intellegent, logic, and correct choice is to make Matt the starter. Whiz is an ex-player and knows a team needs to know who the QB is. No questions, no dissention in the ranks. If Kurt beat Leinart out then he does and that will be that. But as of right now the coaches for the Arizona Cardinals think Matt Leinart is the guy for the job. They know better than us.

Furthermore, if some of you need a little something to put behind Matt as proof....then think about this.

Kurt Warner is a MANIAC. 37 years old. Works harder then anyone bar none. Knows the game like the back of his hand. Is a fierce competitor. And the list goes on.

Matt Leinart is still ahead of him as the starter. That has to count for something. Whiz just doesn't seem like the guy that would stay with Leinart if Warner was head and shoulders (which Mitch implied) better than Leinart.

With all that said the best is still to come. Preseason is going to be CRAZY! Whomever walks out onto the field against the Niners will have certainly earned his spot, and the support of the team & the fans.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Warner threw for 27 td's last year. He did that in less than 16 games, w/ one arm tied behind his back, w/ a team far less than the Niners or Rams of yester year. Are you kidding me? How do you think pretty boy from the Patriots, or Manning, etc. do under those circumstances? Perspective man, perspective.

Come on that is a slap in the face to Payton Manning. That guy took his lumps in his first few seasons.

I do agree with the Joe Montana thing. Montana was unstoppable with Walsh at the helm. When Walsh, left Montana lost a little and Steve Young, being the younger, more mobile guy with more in his tank was able to take over and succeed.

The Cardinals we not the best team last year but we do have Fitzgerald, Boldin, and a unappreciated Edgerrin James back there.

But to help your point along we also had Neil Rackers. That will stop any team from going to the playoffs.

I do agree with the whole picture thing too. We got a young team looking to be good for a loooong time. Warner is not going to last a full season as a starter let alone for a couple seasons after this one.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Next year, we may lose Warner, Boldin, & perhaps others that would change the dynamic of what we have THIS year.

I see your point. But this team is built to be better for years to come. This is just the beginning IMO. We have a lot of young guys on this team that can produce for years to come.

We know what we have w/ Warner, we don't know yet w/ Lienart. Do you really want to bet on the come in hopes that we still have everything in place, that Lienart progresses, that the f.o. makes all the right moves next year, a couple of years from now? .

I don't agree with that at all. We definately do not know what we have in Warner anymore than with Leinart. Warner has had his first good season in seven years. When was benched for Leinart he was playing HORRIBLY.

 

[red desert]

Some of you folks need to get a better understanding of this whole turnover montra. It's one thing to criticize a qb for to's if he's flat out making stupid throws & decisions frequently. It's quite another thing if a qb is making to's b/c he's trying to make the play. The qb's that play it safe rarely, if ever, become the great ones.

Take a look at Warner's int. numbers circa 99-01. He was a three time MVP! He became the MVP by trying to make plays. He had a lot of int's those 3 years, he also had a ton of td's! In 2001, Warner threw 22 int.'s & had 10 fumbles. What a turnover machine! Oh, he also won the MVP as I recall.

At some point, the great qb's learn to trust their receivers to make the play. Sometimes that leads to int's, more often than not however, it leads to great plays. If Warner had had a miserable year last year in the td dept., perhaps some of you would have a point in slamming him. But of course that's not the case, & he played the majority of those games w/ one arm to boot!

Let me give you 2 prime examples of what I'm talking about. In the 1980 SB, Bradshaw throws 3 int.s yet still wins the game as well as the MVP. In the NFC playoff game between the Niners & Cowboys best known for "the catch" to win the game for the Niners, Montana also throws 3 int's that game. In either of those examples, if they lose those games instead, Bradshaw & Montana go down as goats. Funny thing, this perspective thing. Also, a very important side note, both of those teams had great defenses as well as the Rams in 99, 01 w/ Warner.

One last thing that bares mentioning, all those teams, & many more we could all point to as well, had receivers that ran great routes, great running games, as well as great o-lines. We had none of those last year. All of those areas improved markedly, but were far from great none the less. I like Fitz & his potential & athleticism, but he runs some of the worst routes in the league at his level. All of these areas will undoubtedly improve yet again this season which will benefit whoever is qb.

So in short, one must look at the whole picture when evaluating the performance of qb's. The WHOLE picture would leave me to believe that Warner actually had a spectacular year last year given the circumstances & was indeed one of the best qb's in the league let alone this team.

It will be interesting to see if Leinart plays it safe this year b/c of the pressure by football illiterate fans to not turn the ball over. He's smart enough to push the envelope intelligently. The question is, will he? No need ask what Warner will/would do. Warner has already shown his greatness. Will Leinart do likewise this year?

After reading this post I sat back for a moment and comtemplated what I had just read. I then read it again and had the same reaction. Yup. This is the most coherent, intelligent, and articulate post I have read on the ASFN board site this offseason.

Well said.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

I can even throw the Minny game in there where the coaching staff ask him to put the whole offense on his back because they decided from the get go to only run the ball 6 times during the game, in that situation that was a really good promising game coming from a rookie with no run game what so ever.

That Minnesota game was all I needed to back Leinart. He just did not quit EVER in that game.

It seems everyone wants to talk about past accomplishments with Warner. I think Leinart had a little bit of success before coming into the NFL.

Its like the people trying to knock down Fitz a peg to make Boldins pedistal higher, or vice versa.

On this board? Never.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

After reading this post I sat back for a moment and comtemplated what I had just read. I then read it again and had the same reaction. Yup. This is the most coherent, intelligent, and articulate post I have read on the ASFN board site this offseason.

Well said.

I am insulted !

Obviously joking, RD.

 

[earthsci]

Let's just win! I don't care if Big Red is the frickin' QB as long as it's the right decision and we win.

 

[red desert]

Warner was a turnover machine in 2001 as mentioned above. Just out of curiosity AF, would you have sat Warner in place of Leinart due to all those T.O.'s? Would you have thought it wise for Wis. to do likewise for ball control purposes?

We have potential to make a lot of noise this year given the whole picture. Next year, we may lose Warner, Boldin, & perhaps others that would change the dynamic of what we have THIS year. We could go a long ways this year. We know what we have w/ Warner, we don't know yet w/ Lienart. Do you really want to bet on the come in hopes that we still have everything in place, that Lienart progresses, that the f.o. makes all the right moves next year, a couple of years from now?

I personally would rather take the sure thing now & see what happens in the future, in the future. The Card fans have seen what betting on the come has produced for decades. The cards are in place (no pun intended) this year. I say it is wise to take advantage of that this year rather than wait to see what may progress in years to come. Just my opinion of course.

Another good one. You are just knocking them out of the park today.

 

[cardsfanmd]

After reading this thread I have to say that Cards232 is my new favorite poster.

Good stuff man.

 

[red desert]

I am insulted !

Obviously joking, RD.

I gave your posts much consideration. But in the end, had to go with the rookie.

 

[red desert]

After reading this thread I have to say that Cards232 is my new favorite poster.

Good stuff man.

 

[Cards232]

As far as the Whis. knows best, & if he has selected Lienart as the starter, he must know better argument........Remember, Whis. selected Lienart as the starter last year as well. Does anyone really believe in their heart of hearts that Lienart was doing a better job before the injury. We'll never know for sure whether he would have improved as the season went on, but the odds are significant that he wouldn't have done better than Warner or probably even close.

In fact, w/ the o-line still trying to gel, Boldin & Fitz not playing a lot together, putrid t.e. play, all the crucial drops, the run game less than avg., the defense struggling, & Rackers.......well, you know, the odds are that .500 might have been a pipe dream w/ someone w/ so little experience.

Now either there were alterior motives to starting Lienart, or Whis isn't quite as bright as we may think. I tend to think the former is the appropriate answer. Whis. seems to be a very bright coach & I think will serve the Cards well. Remember however that some here used to make the same claim about Denny Green, "Surely he's a coach & knows better"

Just food for thought.

 

[moklerman]

Matt Leinart is still ahead of him as the starter. That has to count for something. Whiz just doesn't seem like the guy that would stay with Leinart if Warner was head and shoulders (which Mitch implied) better than Leinart.

The various reports that I've seen have said that Warner looks razor sharp and Leinart looks improved.

I don't agree with that at all. We definately do not know what we have in Warner anymore than with Leinart. Warner has had his first good season in seven years. When was benched for Leinart he was playing HORRIBLY.

Very good point. The timeline is pretty relevant in regards to Warner's fumbles. In 06 he was benched because of his continued fumbling problems. When Leinart got hurt and Warner got another chance to start, he was wearing the gloves.
2002-2006 (Before gloves)
675/1,060 63.7% 7,479 yds 26 td(2.4%) 30 int(2.8%) 80.9 rating
45 fumbles (1/26 att + sacks)
2006-2007 (With gloves)
312/496 62.9% 3,878 yds 28 td(5.6%) 17 int(3.4%) 91.7 rating
12 fumbles (1/43 att + sacks)

As far as the Whis. knows best, & if he has selected Lienart as the starter, he must know better argument........

It also should be noted that Leinart was named the starter when he was still unable to throw the ball. It didn't have much to do with onfield performance. Warner outplayed Leinart last preseason as well so it's clear that performance was(is?) a secondary issue with naming a starter.

 

[black]

Warner and Leinart debates will happen thoughout the pre-seaon, regular season and the playoffs.

I truly believe there is noone on this team that is going to hurt us by not playing. If anyone was to get hurt or benched I feel any backup can get the job done. This includes the QB position.

It's the offseason so my as well enjoy the debates. So that saying, I like Leinart and all my cards are on the table with him. If he does well at the beginning of the season many will jump on the bandwagon. If he fails, I'll jump ship with you all too.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

I think we'd all be delirious if Leinart is lights out from the start this year.

So would the Cardinals coaches.

But...the truth is...they like Warner for their system better.

They didn't draft Leinart.

Prediction: Cards draft a QB next year.

Their system???

The system, from what I can gather, is a play action passing game with a close to 50 / 50 ratio of run to pass. That is certainly not the way Warner the gunslinger wants to play this game

Yes, they didn't draft Leinart... and, by the way - the didn't hire Warner.

So what!

Everything I've read, quoting the coach, indicates that the job is Leinart's to lose.

You predict drafting a QB. In what round? I don't think that many on this board would consider a second day pick of a QB particularly significant.

PS: please drop the "truth is" stuff. You're offering an opinion, from great distance, nothing more or less.

Q & A - with coach Whiz re: Leinart

Brooke Georgetti asked, How do you feel Matt Leinart is progressing after missing most of last season?

A: “It has been a very good spring for Matt. Physically he looks very good. He is strong and throwing the ball well. He is suffering no ill effects from his shoulder and I think he has worked diligently in the strength and conditioning program with John Lott so he is bigger, stronger and is moving around very well. I think from that standpoint he is much further along. I have also been very pleased with his mental preparation and his growth in that area. This started when he was injured last year and the amount of time he put in during the season. The thing I really like is you see confidence in him on the field because he is more comfortable with the system and when he steps into the huddle and calls the plays there is a different presence about him now. Now we still have to translate that into games but I’ve been very encouraged.”

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Warner and Leinart debates will happen thoughout the pre-seaon, regular season and the playoffs.

I truly believe there is noone on this team that is going to hurt us by not playing. If anyone was to get hurt or benched I feel any backup can get the job done. This includes the QB position.

It's the offseason so my as well enjoy the debates. So that saying, I like Leinart and all my cards are on the table with him. If he does well at the beginning of the season many will jump on the bandwagon. If he fails, I'll jump ship with you all too.

That's one big table.

 

[Mitch]

Their system???

The system, from what I can gather, is a play action passing game with a close to 50 / 50 ratio of run to pass. That is certainly not the way Warner the gunslinger wants to play this game

Yes, they didn't draft Leinart... and, by the way - the didn't hire Warner.

So what!

Everything I've read, quoting the coach, indicates that the job is Leinart's to lose.

You predict drafting a QB. In what round? I don't think that many on this board would consider a second day pick of a QB particularly significant.

PS: please drop the "truth is" stuff. You're offering an opinion, from great distance, nothing more or less.

Q & A - with coach Whiz re: Leinart

Brooke Georgetti asked, How do you feel Matt Leinart is progressing after missing most of last season?

A: “It has been a very good spring for Matt. Physically he looks very good. He is strong and throwing the ball well. He is suffering no ill effects from his shoulder and I think he has worked diligently in the strength and conditioning program with John Lott so he is bigger, stronger and is moving around very well. I think from that standpoint he is much further along. I have also been very pleased with his mental preparation and his growth in that area. This started when he was injured last year and the amount of time he put in during the season. The thing I really like is you see confidence in him on the field because he is more comfortable with the system and when he steps into the huddle and calls the plays there is a different presence about him now. Now we still have to translate that into games but I’ve been very encouraged.”

What do you expect Whiz to say? Ideally, Leinart, because he is far younger, was the team's 1st round pick in 2006, and is signed through 2011, is the most hopeful answer at QB, provided he produces and wins.

Whiz's remarks are right in line with my argument...ideally, the coaches would like Leinart to start. But...as Whiz said, "now we still have to translate that into games..."

My contention is...and I believe it to be the truth (you don't, so that's your opinion)...and time will tell...that the Cardinal organization does not want to pay Warner starter's money...but, Warner is the better fit---at this time---for the system, because he makes quicker reads and delivers the ball 20 yards downfield faster and more accurately...and no one knows this better than the coaches. Plus, Warner last year developed the kind of chemistry with the receivers that made this offense click.

The truth is...31 points a game for the last 8 games...and Warner was the catalyst, playing with one good arm, no less. That truth is hard to ignore.

 

[cardsfanmd]

I truly believe there is noone on this team that is going to hurt us by not playing. If anyone was to get hurt or benched I feel any backup can get the job done.

I too feel better about our overall depth, but if Edge, any OT, or any CB goes down I will be quite worried.

 

[joeshmo]

But...My Opinion is...they like Warner for their system better.

Fixed it for you. Not sure why you keep calling your opinion the Truth. Especially when everything the Cards are saying doesnt say its the truth. Since when have you known the Cards to play games or to be completely unhonest, which is what they would be doing if your so called truth taht they are saying what they are saying is to force Warner to take a lower salary. When in reality the Cards dont or have never played those games, Warner is already making more then Matt, and wont get starter money from any other team even if we did let him go at the age of 38.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Warner was a turnover machine in 2001 as mentioned above. Just out of curiosity AF, would you have sat Warner in place of Leinart due to all those T.O.'s? Would you have thought it wise for Wis. to do likewise for ball control purposes?

We have potential to make a lot of noise this year given the whole picture. Next year, we may lose Warner, Boldin, & perhaps others that would change the dynamic of what we have THIS year. We could go a long ways this year. We know what we have w/ Warner, we don't know yet w/ Lienart. Do you really want to bet on the come in hopes that we still have everything in place, that Lienart progresses, that the f.o. makes all the right moves next year, a couple of years from now?

I personally would rather take the sure thing now & see what happens in the future, in the future. The Card fans have seen what betting on the come has produced for decades. The cards are in place (no pun intended) this year. I say it is wise to take advantage of that this year rather than wait to see what may progress in years to come. Just my opinion of course.

I might be in the minority but I think Leinart with a year to sit on the bench and the beating he has taken publicly is going to outplay Warner from traning camp on - especially when you consider the offense Wiz brings was made for a QB like Leinart rather then a statue with a cannon arm in Warner.

I think Leinart was behind the eight ball last year and was overwhelmed by the new offense and coaching staff. From what I can tell he has it down now and the buy in of the coaches.

So I guess my point is this: Instead of annoiting a starter before a snap in TC, why don't we see how far the golden boy has progressed.

If he gets completely outplayed by Warner then yeah - its a no brainer to go with Warner going into the season. Wis will lose credibility with the team if he goes with the first round pick even though Warner is outplaying him.

But i just don't see it happening. Warner will be good but will continue to turnover the ball. Thats just who he is now. He could have the 78 Steelers aroudn him and he would he would force the ball for INT's and hold onto long in the pocket. Leinart will be steady and make enough plays to win. Thats how i see it going.

If that doesn't happen then of course we should go with Warner. I want to win now. But i think the pieces are in place for Leinart to take off this year. And i think the coaching staff does too.

My biggest concern is that Matty is too injury prone. Thats the only way I see Kurt getting extended playing time IMO.

 

[joeshmo]

Although better than 2 years ago, I still have doubts about how good this O-line can be. I don't think it will be much better if at all than last season.

I think it has to be mentioned that when an OL is rebuilt, the run blocking scheme is usually the last thing to click. Way more communication, scheme, and smarts then pass protection. Ask any OL coach and they will tell you that Run Blocking is usually the last thing to click for an OL unit. You might have individual players who are good blockers but run blocking is more of a unit thing then pass block and why it is harder for a Unit to get "It".

 

[Crazy Canuck]

What do you expect Whiz to say? Ideally, Leinart, because he is far younger, was the team's 1st round pick in 2006, and is signed through 2011, is the most hopeful answer at QB, provided he produces and wins.

Whiz's remarks are right in line with my argument...ideally, the coaches would like Leinart to start. But...as Whiz said, "now we still have to translate that into games..."

My contention is...and I believe it to be the truth (you don't, so that's your opinion)...and time will tell...that the Cardinal organization does not want to pay Warner starter's money...but, Warner is the better fit---at this time---for the system, because he makes quicker reads and delivers the ball 20 yards downfield faster and more accurately...and no one knows this better than the coaches. Plus, Warner last year developed the kind of chemistry with the receivers that made this offense click.

The truth is...31 points a game for the last 8 games...and Warner was the catalyst, playing with one good arm, no less. That truth is hard to ignore.

Try: "In my opinion" - "In my estimation" - "Given what I've read, I can reasonably conclude...", etc., etc... But, spare us the revealed truth, according to Mitch.

Until proven otherwise, I'll take the Coach at his word.

 

[john h]

Matt Leinart was deemed, by the coaching staff, as the team's starter heading into TC for one simple reason: the Cardinals do not want to have to pay Kurt Warner a starter's salary.

Sure...the Cards would love to get maximum value on Leinart, the team's 1st round pick in 2006, #10 overall. No question.

But...if they appointed Warner the starter heading into TC, and applauded Warner for throwing 27 TDs and a top three in the league red zone proficiency with torn ligs--no less--in his left elbow...Warner would be in a logical position to command a starter's salary.

Now...the team wants to reup Warner on a short-term extension, and some say the deal will get done before TC...not so fast...Warner may likely take his chances, seize the starter's job, as some, including myself, expect him to do, and then parlay this year's performance into a lucrative two-year extension (with the Cards) or on the free agent market come next March.

Warner, as loyal and gracious as he is, may accept a hometown discount with the Cards...and may even sign an extension before TC...as he and his family are probably tired of changing residences.

All this said, expect for Warner to be the team's starting QB come game one. Kent Somers said that Leinart will be not be given a quick hook? How quick will it seem when Warner trots out with the offense versus the 49ers?

IMO, Warner deserves to be the starter...he performed more than well enough last year to merit the job. Yes, the coaches want to see him protect the ball better...but they have already been stressing this with him.

It's no fluke that Warner was getting as many reps with the first team offense during voluntary workouts...he gives the team the best chance to win, because he can make the throws that Whiz and Haley want, more than just a tad better than Leinart.

It's really this simple.

IMHO the starter should be the guy who performs best in training camp. No one should be designated as the starter. I personally think it will be Warner. He has the experience to read defenses and knows our offensive system better than Leinart. He still has the quick release and can still get very hot. My guess is he has the most respect from the team. He has be ability to make smart changes and calls at the line of scrimmage.

Leinart has missed a lot of time due to injuries. Nothing replaces having actually been on the field with real live action so Matt has a lot to learn under fire. Maybe Matt is what we hoped he would be when we drafted him and come out firing strikes? Matt is still basically a rookie and rookies rarely take over a team. We still do not know what we have in Matt. Perhaps this year we will start to find out. Warner is still the guy who has won it all on the field of battle. It will be hard for Matt to replace him at this point even though Warner is getting old.