Thinking Cardinals 8/16/11

[spanky1]

that's still 10.6 million bucks that the team CAN manuever with to help boost what was an awful team last year and is choosing not to.

Cheese,

You and I have "battled" in the past....and I have spent time in pergatory as a result.

But with this post, I have to respond.....the signing "game" is far from over.

Please wait until the dust settles before assessing if the team is sandbagging cash.

 

[kerouac9]

that's still 10.6 million bucks that the team CAN manuever with to help boost what was an awful team last year and is choosing not to.

Whom do you want to get? This team is with even adequate quarterback play an 8-8 team with a chance to be relevant through the end of December (IMO).

Would you rather blow our wad on expensive scrubs and redundant players, or lock up the future of the team in Fitz, Deuce, Campbell, and Keith? This team has a ton of players with contracts expiring in 2012, and if we don't lock some of them up, we'll be hearing the same refrain that the Cards were pro-active in free agency even if they lost three of their six best players (or whatever).

If the team extends Fitz and two other pending free agents during the season, then I'll be happy. But we'll have to wait until October likely for Fitz's deal (remember that it wasn't until October that Dockett got paid last year), and we'll have to wait until November or December for the next deal.

Even if Fitz gets done, the core of the team carrying through to 2012 would be the rookies and 2nd year players, Fitz, Dockett, Wilson, Bradley, and Sendlein. Everyone else pretty much will be free agents or a year away. I don't want to see that scenario happen again.

As to the OP, I'm not sure why Mitch wants to bring Asante Samuel to town after being happy to part with a no-more-physical DRC. If DRC was a bad fit to the supposed defensive scheme, Samuel is as much so. The secondary will only be as good as the pass rush in front of them.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Cheese,

You and I have "battled" in the past....and I have spent time in pergatory as a result.

But with this post, I have to respond.....the signing "game" is far from over.

Please wait until the dust settles before assessing if the team is sandbagging cash.

why? should we hold off on everything and anything as to what will happen this season until after it happens? it's a message board. if we're not going to talk about the here, now and future, we literally have nothing to talk about.

and the dust HAS settled on worth while FA.

and people told me LAST YEAR to let the dust settle and that we would probably be using the 30 million bucks in savings to sign some guys after the first wave of FA... then during the season... we'd be using it to sign some of our own and... and it didn't happen. This team is predictable and I'm just predicting what I think will happen... just like you are predicting the signings aren't over.

 

[Mitch]

why? should we hold off on everything and anything as to what will happen this season until after it happens? it's a message board. if we're not going to talk about the here, now and future, we literally have nothing to talk about.

and the dust HAS settled on worth while FA.

and people told me LAST YEAR to let the dust settle and that we would probably be using the 30 million bucks in savings to sign some guys after the first wave of FA... then during the season... we'd be using it to sign some of our own and... and it didn't happen. This team is predictable and I'm just predicting what I think will happen... just like you are predicting the signings aren't over.

You summed it up perfectly, cheese.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Whom do you want to get? This team is with even adequate quarterback play an 8-8 team with a chance to be relevant through the end of December (IMO).

Would you rather blow our wad on expensive scrubs and redundant players, or lock up the future of the team in Fitz, Deuce, Campbell, and Keith? This team has a ton of players with contracts expiring in 2012, and if we don't lock some of them up, we'll be hearing the same refrain that the Cards were pro-active in free agency even if they lost three of their six best players (or whatever).

If the team extends Fitz and two other pending free agents during the season, then I'll be happy. But we'll have to wait until October likely for Fitz's deal (remember that it wasn't until October that Dockett got paid last year), and we'll have to wait until November or December for the next deal.

Even if Fitz gets done, the core of the team carrying through to 2012 would be the rookies and 2nd year players, Fitz, Dockett, Wilson, Bradley, and Sendlein. Everyone else pretty much will be free agents or a year away. I don't want to see that scenario happen again.

As to the OP, I'm not sure why Mitch wants to bring Asante Samuel to town after being happy to part with a no-more-physical DRC. If DRC was a bad fit to the supposed defensive scheme, Samuel is as much so. The secondary will only be as good as the pass rush in front of them.

my call is Fitz gets done and that's it. that's what I'm expecting. other FA? come on... you know they're going to let everyone else hit FA next year and then bring back the cheapest ones. It's how they've done business the last four years... it's how they've done business for years PERIOD.

 

[Renz]

why? should we hold off on everything and anything as to what will happen this season until after it happens? it's a message board. if we're not going to talk about the here, now and future, we literally have nothing to talk about.

and the dust HAS settled on worth while FA.

and people told me LAST YEAR to let the dust settle and that we would probably be using the 30 million bucks in savings to sign some guys after the first wave of FA... then during the season... we'd be using it to sign some of our own and... and it didn't happen. This team is predictable and I'm just predicting what I think will happen... just like you are predicting the signings aren't over.

Come on. Everyone knew the CBA was going to expire and there was going to be a lockout. You can't use last season as an example of anything.

 

[D-Dogg]

Thou art a swaggerer.

What, ho! you men, you beasts. Throw your mistemper'd postings on the ground and hear the proclamations of your moved moderators.

 

[Mitch]

Come on. Everyone knew the CBA was going to expire and there was going to be a lockout. You can't use last season as an example of anything.

Renz: other teams didn't stash away the money like acorns the way the Bidwills did. There were efforts made by a number of teams to try to win. The Packers and Steelers certainly did not cheat their fans, did they?

 

[kerouac9]

my call is Fitz gets done and that's it. that's what I'm expecting. other FA? come on... you know they're going to let everyone else hit FA next year and then bring back the cheapest ones. It's how they've done business the last four years... it's how they've done business for years PERIOD.

That's kind of what I expect to happen, as well, but I have to give them a chance to impress me or change my mind before I complain that it's not done yet. Fitz's negotiation is going to hamstring the front office's personnel moves for the next two and a half months, just like it did after his fourth year with the team.

For the number of players that were available in free agency, there weren't a ton of great fits for what we're trying to do here. I never even bothered putting a free agent wish list together, because I think that Coach is right that last year's situation was so dreadful that it's really difficult to determine who is good on the roster and who's awful.

Braylon Edwards was a bad fit. Lee Evans was a bad fit. Steve Breaston got a good deal elsewhere, but that departure was on the horizon for two years. If Deuce, Keith, and Campbell are allowed to walk out that door come next February, I'll be pretty much done with this organization from Monday to Saturday.

 

[Mulli]

That's kind of what I expect to happen, as well, but I have to give them a chance to impress me or change my mind before I complain that it's not done yet. Fitz's negotiation is going to hamstring the front office's personnel moves for the next two and a half months, just like it did after his fourth year with the team.

For the number of players that were available in free agency, there weren't a ton of great fits for what we're trying to do here. I never even bothered putting a free agent wish list together, because I think that Coach is right that last year's situation was so dreadful that it's really difficult to determine who is good on the roster and who's awful.

Braylon Edwards was a bad fit. Lee Evans was a bad fit. Steve Breaston got a good deal elsewhere, but that departure was on the horizon for two years. If Deuce, Keith, and Campbell are allowed to walk out that door come next February, I'll be pretty much done with this organization from Monday to Saturday.

Who among us hasn't already said that 100 times?

 

[Crazy Canuck]

Sorry, Mitch, I can understand your impatience with the lack of speed and number of moves made by the front office; and, in the end it may prove that you're right, but:

I suspect there may be a lot we don't know (or will ever know) about why certain moves weren't considered or made.

It may have to do with unsaid problems of a player, a player's trying to manipulate the FA process, problem with system fit etc.

Or not.

It's just that I'm reluctant to make any sweeping judgments of the CardInal FO with such certitude. I'd prefer to have s little faith & wait and see.

The average below the CAP space for all 32 teams neighbours the $11/12m, at this point. Evidently, there is no shortage of $$$ to spend, and just as true, FO's throughout the league have concluded there is a shortage of talent to spend it on.

"All in" to my mind, does not include spending for the sake of spending. And, I agree, that we simply are not privy to the hundreds of conversations between the FO and agents, so it's difficult, not to say impossible, to know what has transpired so far.

If Fitz signs on the dotted line, and we come to agreements with some of the younger talent in this fiscal year, I'll consider this process a success.

 

[spanky1]

And that is precisely why I feel so uneasy right now Dems. I know that Larry has said that he wants to retire a Cardinal. He has also said that he desperately wants a chance to play for a championship caliber team so that he has a legitimate shot at his ring, and maybe a HOF career. The thing is, that everything has halted while Larry's agent is studying the offer sheet, (if indeed one has been offered yet). Has anyone actually heard that an offer has been made? Even it it has, who do YOU trust to ensure that ALL the details have been completed satisfactorily to Larry and his agent? I am more inclined to believe that Larry's demands, (which have been very specific), are not quite being balanced by the proposed offer at this time.

Meanwhile the window is slowly, but surely closing. Remember, Larry has stated previously that once the season starts, it is time to play ball, not negotiate contracts. Him having said that, and him having said that he wants to play for a championship caliber team, is exactly what is making me uneasy. If there is ANYTHING that has been left undone, it is finishing off the need to address holes on the defense. That does nothing good for me when I look at whether or not we have met Larry's demands.

Meanwhile the Cardinals calmly sat by while Kurt Warner was obviously taken for granted by the FO. He ultimately walked with a year remaining on his contract because he was tired getting physically abuse by failure to address problems on the O'line. He was a face of this franchise. Anquan Boldin left because he rightfully felt that his contributions had taken a back seat in this organization. He too, was a face of this franchise. Now Larry Fitzgerald is maybe within two weeks of being past where he is willing to work on a new contract. I know Larry said he wants to retire a Cardinal. He ALSO said that he wants the chance to win a championship. You can't give more credence to one of those statements and ignore the other. Both must be addressed to his complete satisfaction. He has only so much time to devote towards his goals. How could you not be uneasy at this point, with the thought that unless our FO hits a home run in the next two weeks he will walk???????

What team can quarantee that they will win a Super Bowl? None....point of fact. Can we compete? This is the $64MM question....not according to Mitch/Cheese and a plethora of others. Me, I'm not sure we can't. I believe that Fitz feels the same way....but then, I'm not in his head.

After all, we damn near won it a couple of years ago.

Fitz will be a Cardinal going forward...of this I am sure, but if I'm wrong, then we will pull off the trade that he will want and we will get value....real value.

I'm in the Executive Recruiting business....it's not about the face of the franchise....it's about shareholder value... that's business and that means winning the war on talent acquisition. Fitz is a chip that we control...for the time being. New England (and a host of other teams) have demonstrated their willingness to alter the face of the landscape...with the bigger picture in mind.

Now, is our FO capable of this understanding....time will tell.

 

[kerouac9]

Renz: other teams didn't stash away the money like acorns the way the Bidwills did. There were efforts made by a number of teams to try to win. The Packers and Steelers certainly did not cheat their fans, did they?

Yes. These two teams were immense buyers on the 2010 free agent market. C'mon. What do they do year after year? Lock up their best players on the roster and develop the players underneath them.

The issue for the team is not a lack of activity in free agency. It's an inability to draft and retain the players who become the core of the roster.

 

[DemsMyBoys]

Fish, On the pre-game show Thursday night Graves said an offer has been sent to Larry's agent.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

Renz: other teams didn't stash away the money like acorns the way the Bidwills did. There were efforts made by a number of teams to try to win. The Packers and Steelers certainly did not cheat their fans, did they?

Neither was active in FA market.

Dallas was... see what it got them....

 

[Cheesebeef]

Come on. Everyone knew the CBA was going to expire and there was going to be a lockout. You can't use last season as an example of anything.

very few other teams sat on their hands and did NOTHING, while letting mutliple players walk and other teams DID sign guys to extensions.

this team not getting key players signed to extensions and letting them hit FA wasn't a first time thing last year Renz.

 

[Cheesebeef]

What team can quarantee that they will win a Super Bowl? None....point of fact. Can we compete? This is the $64MM question....not according to Mitch/Cheese and a plethora of others.
After all, we damn near won it a couple of years ago.

where did i say that? i just think we'd have a BETTER ability to compete if we actually used the funds available to upgrade positions, namely at T, WR, and CB where there were good solid options out there that we passed on.

Fitz will be a Cardinal going forward...of this I am sure, but if I'm wrong, then we will pull off the trade that he will want and we will get value....real value.

he's got a no-trade clause. why wouldn't he just wait until he hit FA... and if we pull off a trade that HE wants, we'll get our asses fleeced.

 

[LoyaltyisaCurse]

Yes. It's an inability to draft and retain the players who become the core of the roster.

Can't argue with that...

 

[spanky1]

Renz: other teams didn't stash away the money like acorns the way the Bidwills did. There were efforts made by a number of teams to try to win. The Packers and Steelers certainly did not cheat their fans, did they?

Mitch,

Talk to me about about the Panthers, the Seahawks, the Bengals, the Bills and lots of others. Last year was an "abberation", knowing that here was going to a lockout.

Not a fair comment IMHO.

The Packers and the Steelers were already "stacked".

 

[Cheesebeef]

Neither was active in FA market.

maybe that's because they didn't see the caliber of players like Boldin, Dansby and Warner walk?

 

[Cheesebeef]

Mitch,

Talk to me about about the Panthers, the Seahawks, the Bengals, the Bills and lots of others. Last year was an "abberation", knowing that here was going to a lockout.

Not a fair comment IMHO.

The Packers and the Steelers were already "stacked".

that's because they take care of their own and draft like banshees... neither or which this organization does.

 

[Mitch]

Mitch,

Talk to me about about the Panthers, the Seahawks, the Bengals, the Bills and lots of others. Last year was an "abberation", knowing that here was going to a lockout.

Not a fair comment IMHO.

The Packers and the Steelers were already "stacked".

None of the teams you mentioned had a winning record last year, Spanky. There was still a Lombardi to be won last year. And none of the teams you mentioned were coming off of back to back playoff seasons and division titles.

You and others may wish to give the Bidwills a mulligan for last year and call it an abberation. I don't. Their response to the Super Bowl appearance was unacceptable to me as well. It should have inspired them to make the Cardinals "stacked."

 

[DemsMyBoys]

You and others may wish to give the Bidwills a mulligan for last year and call it an abberation. I don't. Their response to the Super Bowl appearance was unacceptable to me as well. It should have inspired them to make the Cardinals "stacked."

Well, that's the rub Mitch.

I've been asking on this board since the day I got here how much power Mr. B has. From what I've been reading lately, not much. Michael has pretty much taken over. Not to push Mr. B out of the big chair at the end of the table but I hope that's true.

Michael and Mr. B may share a lot of DNA but I think we're going to find a WHOLE different mind-set in Michael. An illustration: Mr. B was pretty proud of his NFC champs ring. I'm betting Michael tucked his away in a drawer because he wants something a whole lot more gaudy.

 

[slanidrac16]

my call is Fitz gets done and that's it. that's what I'm expecting. other FA? come on... you know they're going to let everyone else hit FA next year and then bring back the cheapest ones. It's how they've done business the last four years... it's how they've done business for years PERIOD.

Amen! Our front office sits around an contemplate and lets players contracts run out with the thought of signing them at our price or somebody else. When Steve Breaston is offered 5M we say, "That's to much to pay him". But had we been proactive 2 years ago and signed him to an extention he'd still be here and more than likely at a less tha 5M per year cap hit.

 

[Buckybird]

Yes. These two teams were immense buyers on the 2010 free agent market. C'mon. What do they do year after year? Lock up their best players on the roster and develop the players underneath them.

The issue for the team is not a lack of activity in free agency. It's an inability to draft and retain the players who become the core of the roster.

Nobody has said it better K9

A leopard all of a sudden doesn't change it spots & neither will our Redbirds. They are what they are & always will be...history says that.