Thinking Cardinals 8/16/11

[Catfish]

There's nothing wrong with being concerned that Larry might choose to go elsewhere. I think he'll re-sign but I'm far from confident. However, if you really think our not being an immediate Super Bowl contender is the reason he'll move on, then there is nothing to worry about. Even if we spent every single penny of the remaining CAP, we're not about to turn this team into an immediate championship contender so the pressure is off and Larry is gone. Turn the page.

Steve

I get your point, I hope that you get mine. I never said that the job had to be completed immediately. I only said they had to convince him that they were willing to do it period. I find it hard to believe that he is convinced of this after watching them spend enough to sign 51 people in 4 days, then close up the books and pass on at least 5 prospective players that could have made a very significant difference in the makeup of our team. Sadder yet, they did this with nearly 14 mil in cap space available. That hardly seems to me to be the way to show your face-of-the-franchise player that you are working very hard to plug up the holes. That is about the last I will say on this matter, because the situation is what it is. We will just have to be content to see how it comes out in the wash. I have said before, I hope I am wrong, I will be EXTREMELY happy if I am.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

Fitz knows he can't create a legacy if he doesn't win. thinking that hooking up with two of the best QBs of all time, who haven't won anything in a while and getting them back on top while winning himself won't hurt his legacy. it'll only enhance it. And the other QBs besides Brees has never won a Super Bowl, yet are proven winners.



not ignoring anything... but i've seen guys recruit players in MANY a sport and when it doesn't work, they don't stick around just because their idea didn't work.

but if you want to ignore that Fitz probably realizes there's more to rebuilding a team than just getting a QB, you can keep doing that.



and will be pissed.



lol... yeah, cause THAT'S what I do when something good happens to the Cardinals. good grief. I'll be happier than a pig in slop if he signs with us. But thanks for intimating that somehow I would think badly of him if came back. I mean... jesus.



and sometimes the details aren't the only things that matter... the big picture does as well.

Championships are not a given, as you appreciate,

They are players who've never won in Halls of Fame, and the names of hundreds of virtual nobodies on trophies and cups.

I think, Fitz helping to lead the Cards to a championship would be a highly satisfying result for him, and a crowning to his personal legacy. If it hasn't occurred between now and the end of his new contract, which I presuppose he'll sign, then moving on would seem more likely.

I'll take from your response that should he sign the BIG PICTURE is not as dire as you and others intimate.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I get your point, I hope that you get mine. I never said that the job had to be completed immediately. I only said they had to convince him that they were willing to do it period. I find it hard to believe that he is convinced of this after watching them spend enough to sign 51 people in 4 days, then close up the books and pass on at least 5 prospective players that could have made a very significant difference in the makeup of our team. Sadder yet, they did this with nearly 14 mil in cap space available. That hardly seems to me to be the way to show your face-of-the-franchise player that you are working very hard to plug up the holes. That is about the last I will say on this matter, because the situation is what it is. We will just have to be content to see how it comes out in the wash. I have said before, I hope I am wrong, I will be EXTREMELY happy if I am.

Read what Joeshmo keeps telling us about that number. According to him (and I think he's correct), that number is both inaccurate AND functionally meaningless. He explains it better than I can so I won't even try but you and a few others seem to disregard his information. If you think he's wrong, I'd love to see you make your case. I like to learn.

Steve

 

[Cheesebeef]

Championships are not a given, as you appreciate,

They are players who've never won in Halls of Fame, and the names of hundreds of virtual nobodies on trophies and cups.

Fitz's legacy as far as the above is already secure though. Dude's a first ballot HOFer right now if his career stays the same. But he never will become a legend if he doesn't start winning and doing it in the playoffs. That's just the way sports is.

I think, Fitz helping to lead the Cards to a championship would be a highly satisfying result for him, and a crowning to his personal legacy.

sure it would. who's arguing otherwise? but I just don't know if he believes he has the FO/team around him to do that and it wouldn't surprise me for a guy who wants to win as bad as him go to another team where he has a better shot at doing that.

If it hasn't occurred between now and the end of his new contract, which I presuppose he'll sign, then moving on would seem more likely.

so, you think he'll wait until the tail end of his prime to make that move? Again, I think Larry's smarter than that.

I'll take from your response that should he sign the BIG PICTURE is not as dire as you and others intimate.

huh? i think he should sign because I'M SELFISH and I don't want to lose him. I could care less what he wants. that has nothing to do with me thinking the big picture is on pretty shaky ground.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Read what Joeshmo keeps telling us about that number. According to him (and I think he's correct), that number is both inaccurate AND functionally meaningless. He explains it better than I can so I won't even try but you and a few others seem to disregard his information. If you think he's wrong, I'd love to see you make your case. I like to learn.

Steve

huh? that number might not dictate just how much we've actually spent in player salary, but it's certainly not functionally meaningless. it means they still have that much room to work with regardless of what they've already spent.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

I get your point, I hope that you get mine. I never said that the job had to be completed immediately. I only said they had to convince him that they were willing to do it period. I find it hard to believe that he is convinced of this after watching them spend enough to sign 51 people in 4 days, then close up the books and pass on at least 5 prospective players that could have made a very significant difference in the makeup of our team. Sadder yet, they did this with nearly 14 mil in cap space available. That hardly seems to me to be the way to show your face-of-the-franchise player that you are working very hard to plug up the holes. That is about the last I will say on this matter, because the situation is what it is. We will just have to be content to see how it comes out in the wash. I have said before, I hope I am wrong, I will be EXTREMELY happy if I am.

Who said they simply passed on players of interest? Who says that they were actually interested in some of the names bandied about? We have no idea who they exchanged with or didn't, what offers were made, refused, and the all important why. The only case where we have a bit of detail is on Braylon Edwards, and he refused MORE MONEY from AZ to sign with SF.

What is sad is that there is so much $$$ chasing after so little talent, which is obvious from the fact that the average is $10/11 below the CAP per team. Some have twice the space of the Cards and they are considerably less talented and more in need. Only one team (Rams) is slightly over at this point.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Who said they simply passed on players of interest? Who says that they were actually interested in some of the names bandied about? We have no idea who they exchanged with or didn't, what offers were made, refused, and the all important why. The only case where we have a bit of detail is on Braylon Edwards, and he refused MORE MONEY from AZ to sign with SF.

What is sad is that there is so much $$$ chasing after so little talent, which is obvious from the fact that the average is $10/11 below the CAP per team.

that's great and all, but considering we were AWFUL last year, shouldn't we have been trying to do more than the average team since we have so long to go before we play like an average team?

Some have twice the space of the Cards and they are considerably less talented and more in need.

so, because worse teams aren't spending money, it's okay that we're doing the same thing? that's a pretty low bar to set for this team. Hey... BAD teams are doing what we're doing! as if we weren't one of the worst teams in the league last year.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

that's great and all, but considering we were AWFUL last year, shouldn't we have been trying to do more than the average team since we have so long to go before we play like an average team?



so, because worse teams aren't spending money, it's okay that we're doing the same thing? that's a pretty low bar to set for this team. Hey... BAD teams are doing what we're doing! as if we weren't one of the worst teams in the league last year.

For one who constantly complains about people taking you out of context or twisting your deeper meaning, you do take liberties.

My point, which was clear, is that there is a dirth of talent available to the point that even teams with greater needs than the Cards are eschewing the FA market.

And, we did more than the average. Go check the number of signing per team across the league.

 

[Cheesebeef]

For one who constantly complains about people taking you out of context or twisting your deeper meaning, you do take liberties.

My point, which was clear, is that there is a dirth of talent available to the point that even teams with greater needs than the Cards are eschewing the FA market.

now you're point is clear... but still, you're saying that other teams did the same things as the Cardinals so it's okay... which I find perplexing. Not all other teams were HORRENDOUS like we were. when you have the #5 pick in the draft and there was a huge flux of FA at positions like LT, CB and WR and we addressed those by signing one guy who had a horrible year last year (Marshall), it's cause for concern in my book.

And, we did more than the average. Go check the number of signing per team across the league.

quantity does NOT equal quality.

 

[joeshmo]

huh? that number might not dictate just how much we've actually spent in player salary, but it's certainly not functionally meaningless. it means they still have that much room to work with regardless of what they've already spent.

It doesnt even mean how much room they have to work with. We can spend another 30 mill in player salary and still be within cap. (now that I just made the "naysayers" debate point stronger, I will duck and run)

There is a reason why Washington can spend 160 mill in player salary and still be under the cap of 100 mill, Or why Green bay Can only spend 80 Mill in player salary yet be close to the 100 mill cap.

 

[joeshmo]

quantity does NOT equal quality.

Thats not what she said.

 

[az jam]

This thread has given me a headache.

 

[desertdawg]

I thought every team had to spend 99% of their thingy on their best wide receiver this year, and then it goes up each year after that.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

now you're point is clear... but still, you're saying that other teams did the same things as the Cardinals so it's okay... which I find perplexing. Not all other teams were HORRENDOUS like we were. when you have the #5 pick in the draft and there was a huge flux of FA at positions like LT, CB and WR and we addressed those by signing one guy who had a horrible year last year (Marshall), it's cause for concern in my book.



quantity does NOT equal quality.

Well, I read one report that we'd approached Doug Free's agent; we were in the Ndambi (sp) sweepstakes, and Braylon turned down more $$$ to sign with SF. So, if all true, then efforts you would approve of were made.

Bottom line for me, is the quantity / quality of our offseason acquisitions (so far) have made us a better team.

QB with the addition of Kolb
RB with the addition of Williams
FB with the addition of Sherman
Gd with the addition of Colledge
TE with the additions of Heap, King and Housler
LB with the addition of Bradley and Acho

Vet depth: Eason, Holiday, Womack

(and, I don't dismiss the addition of Marshall who is a better fit for Horton's "D" and Peterson)

This and improved play from second year starters like Washington, Williams, Schofield, Toler.... makes me feel pretty good going into September.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Well, I read one report that we'd approached Doug Free's agent; we were in the Ndambi (sp) sweepstakes, and Braylon turned down more $$$ to sign with SF. So, if all true, then efforts you would approve of were made.

there were better options at CB, you listed zero options at T and no one as far as OLB. and teams don't get an A for effort IMO. They get an A for results.

Bottom line for me, is the quantity / quality of our offseason acquisitions (so far) have made us a better team.



QB with the addition of Kolb
RB with the addition of Williams
FB with the addition of Sherman
Gd with the addition of Colledge
TE with the additions of Heap, King and Housler
LB with the addition of Bradley and Acho

Vet depth: Eason, Holiday, Womack

a couple of those may have made us better, but we were AWFUL last year and i'm not sure the impact of the guys above, especially the rookies who are more behind the eight ball than usual this year, will make that much of a difference.

(and, I don't dismiss the addition of Marshall who is a better fit for Horton's "D" and Peterson)

neither do I, nor do I ignore the reality of having a first time DC, who didn't have a full off-season to implement a scheme... nor depending on a rookie.

This an improved play from second year starters like Washington, Williams, Schofield, Toler.... makes me feel pretty good going into September.

but you're assuming improved play from second year starters, when so far, we've yet to really see improvement from the majority of Wiz/RG drafted players. hell, almost all of their first draft aren't even on the team and some high picks they made never even played a down before they were cut. I just can't assume all of the above make strides this year when I've yet to see much of any of our previous draft picks under this regime do so in the past.

 

[crisper57]

Flipped through the dial yesterday. Bickley and MJ were interviewing Larry, so I listened. They joked that he was really the team's GM and then pressed him on his contract status.

What surprised me was how angry Larry sounded. Even though they were clearly joking about the GM piece, he took two minutes to deny everything. Then when they asked about the contract, he said they went back on a promise to not bring it up.

He said something like, "Fans are tired of hearing about what the players want with the lockout. They are more concerned with touchdowns than contracts."

Uh, no Fitz. We would much rather hear about you being locked up for the nex 4-5 years than hear about your scoring a meaningless TD in preseason.

It was the first time I got concerned because he would not even offer any reassurances to the fans. No glimmer of hope. He said he wants to be a Cardinal and loves AZ, but refused to speak on his confidence level of getting something done.

I am tired of hearing him repeat the mantra that he is just trying to get prepared for the season. Yeah, we know that. Stop evading the questions!!! You're giving me an ulcer Fitz!

 

[Shane]

Flipped through the dial yesterday. Bickley and MJ were interviewing Larry, so I listened. They joked that he was really the team's GM and then pressed him on his contract status.

What surprised me was how angry Larry sounded. Even though they were clearly joking about the GM piece, he took two minutes to deny everything. Then when they asked about the contract, he said they went back on a promise to not bring it up.

He said something like, "Fans are tired of hearing about what the players want with the lockout. They are more concerned with touchdowns than contracts."

Uh, no Fitz. We would much rather hear about you being locked up for the nex 4-5 years than hear about your scoring a meaningless TD in preseason.

It was the first time I got concerned because he would not even offer any reassurances to the fans. No glimmer of hope. He said he wants to be a Cardinal and loves AZ, but refused to speak on his confidence level of getting something done.

I am tired of hearing him repeat the mantra that he is just trying to get prepared for the season. Yeah, we know that. Stop evading the questions!!! You're giving me an ulcer Fitz!

If Fitz does leave it will suck sure. But will hardly be the end of the world or set the franchise in the dark ages like many hear claim.

Plain and simply put he is just a WR. If and it's a big if Kolb becomes who we all hope he will be. The face of the franchise will not be Fitz and that is a good
thing. The fact that a WR is our current face is nit a good thing no matter how good a guy Fitz is.

 

[Cheesebeef]

If Fitz does leave it will suck sure. But will hardly be the end of the world or set the franchise in the dark ages like many hear claim.

losing Fitz alone wouldn't set us back to the dark ages, but it would be the final HUGE straw that broke this camel's back as him leaving wouldn't happen in a vacuum. Losing every key member of the Super Bowl team within two years (most of them in their prime... save Dockett) will certainly put this franchise in the dark ages. Larry leaving wouldn't be happening in a vaccum.

If you don't think losing Larry, Q, Dansby, Breaston, Rolle, etc. etc. won't send a message to the rest of the league that something stinks in this franchise, you're fooling yourself. No one likes to believe they're the Los Angeles Clippers, but when you literally lose every key FA (but Dockett) you have within a two year window, that's exactly how people will see you... and they should.

 

[crisper57]

If Fitz does leave it will suck sure. But will hardly be the end of the world or set the franchise in the dark ages like many hear claim.

Plain and simply put he is just a WR. If and it's a big if Kolb becomes who we all hope he will be. The face of the franchise will not be Fitz and that is a good
thing. The fact that a WR is our current face is nit a good thing no matter how good a guy Fitz is.

I agree, but if we're willing to hand him the keys to the kingdom (and the vault) and he gives Mr. Graves the middle finger, what does that say about this franchise?

 

[Mulli]

losing every key member of the Super Bowl team within two years (most of them in their prime) will certainly put this franchise in the dark ages. If you don't think losing Larry, Q, Dansby, Breaston, Rolle, etc. etc. won't send a message to the rest of the league that something stinks in this franchise, you're fooling yourself. No one likes to believe they're the Los Angeles Clippers, but when you literally lose every key FA (but Dockett) you have within a two year window, that's exactly how people will see you... and they should.

Players will still sign here.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Players will still sign here.

good ones? because i seem to remember NO ONE wanting to touch us with a ten foot pole for years... and those that did, were simply using us for leverage for the better part of 23 years before DG had one amazing draft.

how soon we forget the bonanza off-season when our big signings were Hodgins, Dexter Jackson, Jeff Blake and Emmitt Smith!

 

[Mulli]

good ones? because i seem to remember NO ONE wanting to touch us with a ten foot pole for years... and those that did, were simply using us for leverage for the better part of 23 years before DG had one amazing draft.

how soon we forget the bonanza off-season when our big signings were Hodgins, Dexter Jackson, Jeff Blake and Emmitt Smith!

Yes, good ones.

 

[Renz]

good ones? because i seem to remember NO ONE wanting to touch us with a ten foot pole for years... and those that did, were simply using us for leverage for the better part of 23 years before DG had one amazing draft.

how soon we forget the bonanza off-season when our big signings were Hodgins, Dexter Jackson, Jeff Blake and Emmitt Smith!

Jackson chose the Cards over the Steelers. Duane Starks left the Ravens to sign here. They never really panned out, but they were sought-after FA's.

Money talked then and it still does.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Yes, good ones.

what in our history leads you to believe this? we don't even go out and sign good free agents NOW. We sign middle of the road guys... but if we lost every impact player, then we'd go after the big boys... and they'd come here? Really curious as to your logic here.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Jackson chose the Cards over the Steelers. Duane Starks left the Ravens to sign here. They never really panned out, but they were sought-after FA's.

Money talked then and it still does.

you just named two Free agents in how many years? and starks didn't leave the Ravens... they had no interest in bringing him back.