Thunder @ Suns 3-6-14

[Cheesebeef]

Actually I have. This whole season, Kieff has used his size and speed to his advantage. When he gets a C or slow PF matched against him, he drives right by for the finish. When a SF or guard matched up against him, he posts them and kills em. He was killing Durant in the OKC game and that's why they switched Durant to Green. And when he gets doubled, he makes the right passes for the most part.

Even Eddie Johnson said recently during a game that Kieff is a very underrated passer and then I think there was an article in which Hornacek also said that Kieff is a good passer.

And he's actually very good at creating for himself on the days than he's "on". We usually just give him the ball on the low block and he either drives to the rim or dribbles to the mid range area and pulls up.

But I'll agree that he doesn't run an offense Odom did and actually bring the ball up the cough and everything. And he's probably not as good as Odom at creating for others but he's close imo.

I pretty much disagree with all of the above so there's no point in further discussions here.

 

[Catlover]

I pretty much disagree with all of the above so there's no point in further discussions here.

You won't even consider that having watched just a couple of games that you are out in the cold on this argument? I've watched every game and in the games where Markieff is focused and aggressive, he plays just like 88 said.

It's probably just as reasonable to base his overall value on his weaker performances because he's had quite a handful of them even this year (which is clearly his best season) but if you had watched every game you would not have raised the issues that Sunsfan88 countered. Markieff clearly can and does beat his man off the dribble and he takes the ball strong to the basket. He posts up the smaller players, passes well and plays a smart game. On his good nights. On his bad nights, he makes lazy passes, he usually chucks from distance, plays uninspired defense and after the coach gets tired of him, he watches the game from the sidelines.

 

[Cheesebeef]

You won't even consider that having watched just a couple of games that you are out in the cold on this argument?

no. the guy's simply don't have I've watched about 15 games this season, and I can say without a doubt in my mind that Markieff and Odom's games are pretty far apart. Odom's ability to actually RUN an offense completely separates his game from Markieff. Can Markieff occassionally break down a bigger man? Or post up smaller players? Sure, but Odom could break down bigger men, smaller men and post up players of smaller and equal size. Didn't mean he was always focused to do so, but neither is Markieff.

 

[Catlover]

no. the guy's simply don't have I've watched about 15 games this season, and I can say without a doubt in my mind that Markieff and Odom's games are pretty far apart. Odom's ability to actually RUN an offense completely separates his game from Markieff. Can Markieff occassionally break down a bigger man? Or post up smaller players? Sure, but Odom could break down bigger men, smaller men and post up players of smaller and equal size. Didn't mean he was always focused to do so, but neither is Markieff.

I was referring to the simple points he made about Kieff's game and not your overriding difference of opinion. I agree his game has very little in common with that of Odom's. Lamar was part Magic, part Ice Man and part Chris Webber. Keef, even at his best, is nothing like any of those players. The biggest similarity between Markieff and Odom is their ability to disappear. Odom, reportedly, smoked a lot of pot and I can't help but wonder if that same issue is tied to Markieff's bad nights. Some athletes (not all, just some) occasionally lose their focus and competitiveness when they get high. I have no idea if the twins indulge but I can't come up with any other reason for the way they disappear.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I was referring to the simple points he made about Kieff's game and not your overriding difference of opinion. I agree his game has very little in common with that of Odom's. Lamar was part Magic, part Ice Man and part Chris Webber. Keef, even at his best, is nothing like any of those players. The biggest similarity between Markieff and Odom is their ability to disappear. Odom, reportedly, smoked a lot of pot and I can't help but wonder if that is tied to Markieff's bad nights. Some athletes (not all, just some) occasionally lose their focus and competitiveness when they get high. I have no idea if the twins indulge but I can't come up with any other reason for the way they disappear.

Okay...after reading the above, I now have literally no clue what we're talking about.

 

[Catlover]

Okay...after reading the above, I now have literally no clue what we're talking about.

I ignored the overall context of your argument and just responded to one single aspect of the conversation. Probably not the best thing to do. I didn't realize that when you answered his post that you were solely focusing on the Odom/Markieff comparison and that's why you said that you disagreed with everything he said and therefore there was nothing left to discuss.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I ignored the overall context of your argument and just responded to one single aspect of the conversation. Probably not the best thing to do. I didn't realize that when you answered his post that you were solely focusing on the Odom/Markieff comparison and that's why you said that you disagreed with everything he said and therefore there was nothing left to discuss.

Ah...gotcha.

 

[sunsfan88]

The Suns made nine turnovers and could not find easy shots, going 5 for 16 without Markieff Morris’ inside game to bail them out this time.

http://www.azcentral.com/sports/sun...irdquarter-run-too-much-for-phoenix-suns.html

Kieff is probably our best low post player. Don't know if that's a good thing but yea.

 

[Errntknght]

Markieff has had a good number of games when he looked much above average on offense and other nights he's been rather useless. I use stats to average the highs and lows of his contribution. On offensive efficiency he's just slightly below the league average for all PF's - today. A few days ago he was slightly above it. But he scores points at a higher than average rate - while the high scorers are often efficient quite a few of the most efficient players don't score too much - so I give Markieff a little bump for that. On the other hand, he rebounds 1 reb/36 below average and the story is worse when you look at rim protection. There are 64 players that have averaged 5 or more FGA's against them and played in 30 or more games - among those 64 Markieff had the fifth worst average. (Kevin Love was one of the 4 with a worse average. No one has compared Markieff to Love but to have a better appreciation of what an elite PF, outside of defense, looks like in these terms - KL is 4 reb/36 above average, his offensive efficiency is 20% above average and he scores 26.2 pts/36.)

Anyway, that's my reasoning behind labeling Markieff as average among PFs. He may well contribute more alongside a good center - lets hope we find that out before too long!

 

[Catlover]

Markieff has had a good number of games when he looked much above average on offense and other nights he's been rather useless. I use stats to average the highs and lows of his contribution. On offensive efficiency he's just slightly below the league average for all PF's - today. A few days ago he was slightly above it. But he scores points at a higher than average rate - while the high scorers are often efficient quite a few of the most efficient players don't score too much - so I give Markieff a little bump for that. On the other hand, he rebounds 1 reb/36 below average and the story is worse when you look at rim protection. There are 64 players that have averaged 5 or more FGA's against them and played in 30 or more games - among those 64 Markieff had the fifth worst average. (Kevin Love was one of the 4 with a worse average. No one has compared Markieff to Love but to have a better appreciation of what an elite PF, outside of defense, looks like in these terms - KL is 4 reb/36 above average, his offensive efficiency is 20% above average and he scores 26.2 pts/36.)

Anyway, that's my reasoning behind labeling Markieff as average among PFs. He may well contribute more alongside a good center - lets hope we find that out before too long!

He also has to log minutes at the center spot which can't be doing much for his defensive numbers. And those minutes at the center position come without a solid power forward playing next to him. I'd be fine with calling him average for his position if we're just talking about the starters and the backups that play significant minutes. If you're including all players though, such as the Kravtsov's of the league, which I thought you were doing, he should rate much higher.

 

[BC867]

If you're including all players though, such as the Kravtsov's of the league, which I thought you were doing, he should rate much higher.

But if we have aspirations of becoming a solid playoff team, then better, wouldn't it be meaningless to flood the field with sludges to make Markieff's average performances look better?

If you want to ride with the best, you have to compare yourself to the best.

 

[Catlover]

But if we have aspirations of becoming a solid playoff team, then better, wouldn't it be meaningless to flood the field with sludges to make Markieff's average performances look better?

If you want to ride with the best, you have to compare yourself to the best.

I'm not sure why you're going in this direction. I'm not against adding a player that's better than him, far from it. I just think he's had more of an impact on our season than many posters are giving him credit for. I would love to see him paired with someone like a Marc Gasol to see how he performs when given the same opportunity most power forwards get but I'd be fine watching him come in off the bench as long as the starter was clearly better. Right now though he's the best inside player we have.

If we keep the twins we need to find a strong inside player to pair with Keef and we need to improve at the backup spots too. I think a starting lineup of Bledsoe, Dragic, Green, Markieff along with a Gasol clone could be something special. I don't know if we'll ever get to see something like that but I smile every time I think about it. A lineup that can score, rebound and defend! I'd love to see that in Phoenix.

 

[BC867]

I'm not sure why you're going in this direction.

My post was just in reaction to your thought.

If you're including all players though, such as the Kravtsov's of the league, which I thought you were doing, he should rate much higher.

If we have to compare Kieff to the Kravtsov's of the league for him to rate higher, we're aiming for mediocrity.

 

[Catlover]

My post was just in reaction to your thought.

If we have to compare Kieff to the Kravtsov's of the league for him to rate higher, we're aiming for mediocrity.

So it's your understanding that I was parading Keef around as a good player because he's better than the Kravtsov's of the league? I think you must have joined the conversation late. I was responding to a comment that suggested that Markieff was just a backup and no more than an average player at that. I was trying to reach an agreement on what was meant by "average player". There's a big difference between being average out of the group of 220 or so players that get significant minutes as opposed to being average among the 470 or so players that play in the league each year.

 

[SirStefan32]

I think we can all agree that he is the best PF we have, so let's start him and give him 32+ minutes per game and see how he performs.

 

[Catlover]

I think we can all agree that he is the best PF we have, so let's start him and give him 32+ minutes per game and see how he performs.

I'd feel a lot better if we were starting him next to a true power player.

 

[hcsilla]

Millsap is an excellent target as Markieff's (future) comparison.

Millsap has 2-3 inches on him at wingspan, is a better rebounder and probably defender but the way they play and their skills are very similar.

 

[Hoop Head]

I think we can all agree that he is the best PF we have, so let's start him and give him 32+ minutes per game and see how he performs.

I don't know how well that would work but I think it would be worth it because it would also lessen the minutes he played with Marcus which would not only show us how valuable Kieff could be as as starter but also how well both Morri play without each other.

I think when Bledsoe gets worked back into the starting lineup is when Hornacek may experiment with things a little bit more. Other than swapping Kieff and Frye, I'd like to see Tucker go to the bench and slide Green over to the SF spot unless there is a wing player that needs a lockdown defender like Tucker. Unfortunately I don't think Tucker would be very effective at all coming off the bench since he is terrible offensively.

 

[Catlover]

I don't know how well that would work but I think it would be worth it because it would also lessen the minutes he played with Marcus which would not only show us how valuable Kieff could be as as starter but also how well both Morri play without each other.

I think when Bledsoe gets worked back into the starting lineup is when Hornacek may experiment with things a little bit more. Other than swapping Kieff and Frye, I'd like to see Tucker go to the bench and slide Green over to the SF spot unless there is a wing player that needs a lockdown defender like Tucker. Unfortunately I don't think Tucker would be very effective at all coming off the bench since he is terrible offensively.

Like any two teammates that know each other's game intimately, the twins play a little better when they are on the court together. But I think the main issue is keeping them on the same team not necessarily playing them at the same time. They already log a lot of minutes separately and I haven't really noticed a drop-off for either of them. Not that I've specifically focused on it but it hasn't appeared to be an issue.

One lineup I'd like to see them try is Bledsoe, Dragic, Green, Markieff and Tucker (with Tucker playing the five). PJ often matched up against the biggest player on the court in college and he's the only player with the frame to battle with the bigger centers. He'd need some help but we'd easily be the fastest and quickest team in the NBA and I could see it giving some opponents fits. I'd rather put Keef at the four next to a true center but until we find or develop one we're going to have to manufacture advantages in less than traditional ways.

 

[BC867]

One lineup I'd like to see them try is Bledsoe, Dragic, Green, Markieff and Tucker (with Tucker playing the five).

That PJ has become our most dependable rebounder (by default -- da fault of our Centers and Power Forwards ) is no indication of what he would do nightly vs. Centers.

Are you related to John MacLeod (who forced our Forwards to compete with Centers every game)? To the tune of zero championships.

 

[Catlover]

That PJ has become our most dependable rebounder (by default -- da fault of our Centers and Power Forwards ) is no indication of what he would do nightly vs. Centers.

Are you related to John MacLeod (who forced our Forwards to compete with Centers every game)? To the tune of zero championships.

Ish is probably our next best rebounder, we can try him if Tucker doesn't work out there. It's not Tucker's rebounding that makes me want to try him at center, it's our lack of options coupled with his lower body build that suggests it might be workable.

And no, I'm not related to Macleod and I'm not in favor of asking little guys to do the work of big guys. But I am in favor of living in the real world. We need to acquire or develop a player that fits the center position by virtue of his size AND his ability/skill set. Putting someone out there solely because he fits the size requirement does nothing for you other than eat up a few fouls. If I had to choose between size and skill set I suspect I'd choose skill set but I'd much rather not have to make that choice.

Regardless, unless and until Plumlee and Len learn to man the position for the full 48 minutes we're going to have to use the patchwork method. Tucker doesn't really fit the mold of a guard, forward or center. I'd just as soon try him at the five and leave us with only one player that's lining up out of position. When the question is center, Keef is no more the answer than Frye is so perhaps it's time to find a different SHORT TERM solution.

I know we've done this before and it's never the ideal solution but at some point it does make sense to just put your best basketball players on the court and forget about positions. I'm not positive it will work but Tucker seems to be the player most physically suited to body up against the real centers of the league. Frye has the length but the centers push him around the court like a wheelbarrow. Tucker won't be able to do much once the center gets into position but at least he has a fighting chance of keeping his man from getting that position.

 

[Mainstreet]

Ish is probably our next best rebounder, we can try him if Tucker doesn't work out there. It's not Tucker's rebounding that makes me want to try him at center, it's our lack of options coupled with his lower body build that suggests it might be workable.

And no, I'm not related to Macleod and I'm not in favor of asking little guys to do the work of big guys. But I am in favor of living in the real world. We need to acquire or develop a player that fits the center position by virtue of his size AND his ability/skill set. Putting someone out there solely because he fits the size requirement does nothing for you other than eat up a few fouls. If I had to choose between size and skill set I suspect I'd choose skill set but I'd much rather not have to make that choice.

Regardless, unless and until Plumlee and Len learn to man the position for the full 48 minutes we're going to have to use the patchwork method. Tucker doesn't really fit the mold of a guard, forward or center. I'd just as soon try him at the five and leave us with only one player that's lining up out of position. When the question is center, Keef is no more the answer than Frye is so perhaps it's time to find a different SHORT TERM solution.

I know we've done this before and it's never the ideal solution but at some point it does make sense to just put your best basketball players on the court and forget about positions. I'm not positive it will work but Tucker seems to be the player most physically suited to body up against the real centers of the league. Frye has the length but the centers push him around the court like a wheelbarrow. Tucker won't be able to do much once the center gets into position but at least he has a fighting chance of keeping his man from getting that position.

So I'm not the only one who fantasizes about Ish playing center.

 

[sunsfan88]

I don't like Frye starting but I don't think starting Kieff will solve any problems. Kieff tends to only play well and get into rhythm when coming off the bench and playing with his brother. We have tried starting Kieff before and its been disasters.

But yea I guess at this point, it doesn't hurt to try it out and see if he can handle a starting role now.