Thunder @ Suns 3-6-14

[Cheesebeef]

The stretch run ahead will be a good test for the Morris twins. I must admit they have both surprised me this year, Markieff more than Marcus because I believed he'd never quit shooting 3's and go to work inside. Marcus hasn't curtailed his long range shooting but he's improved it some, enough to make it a plus.

However, I still don't rate them as above average at their positions at either end of the floor. I think they can improve but I want to see it before I worry about what kind of contract they deserve. Without improvement they are still backup players - good, solid ones but not starter material on a contending team. In fact I'd like to see them in the playoffs because I'm fearful that they will be physically overmatched in playoff basketball.

Agree with all of this.

 

[Catlover]

However, I still don't rate them as above average at their positions at either end of the floor. I think they can improve but I want to see it before I worry about what kind of contract they deserve. Without improvement they are still backup players - good, solid ones but not starter material on a contending team. In fact I'd like to see them in the playoffs because I'm fearful that they will be physically overmatched in playoff basketball.

Backup or not, Markieff has been an impact player for us this season. There's a reason he's at or near the top of everyone's list for top 6th man award. An award that almost always goes to the little guys and yet he's right there in the mix. He likely won't win it but he's clearly one of the leaders. We're a playoff contending team and he's been as key to our wins as anyone not named Goran.

He's averaging just over 18 and 8 per 36 and he's a credible threat to score from inside, from deep and from mid-range. You rarely find that in a player especially not one that's also willing to mix it up down low. The only thing keeping him from stardom is inconsistency but even given his occasional bad performance he's still playing at a level well above average. And as poor as our D has been he's probably been our our most effective defender this season. Once Fyre and Plumlee started fading he's had to handle the opposing big man rather than the four he should be guarding. If he's like most similar bigs, he'll really start to shine when you pair him with a true center.

We have them for another season before we have to decide on their qualifying offer but I think it would be a mistake to put it off till the last minute. I'd much rather deal them this offseason than wait until one of the deadlines rolls around that typically reduces their trade value. I think they are both good enough to start for a championship team but only Keef has the potential to become a top 3 player on a true contender. He may not be there yet but he's not far off that mark.

 

[JS22]

The stretch run ahead will be a good test for the Morris twins. I must admit they have both surprised me this year, Markieff more than Marcus because I believed he'd never quit shooting 3's and go to work inside. Marcus hasn't curtailed his long range shooting but he's improved it some, enough to make it a plus.

However, I still don't rate them as above average at their positions at either end of the floor. I think they can improve but I want to see it before I worry about what kind of contract they deserve. Without improvement they are still backup players - good, solid ones but not starter material on a contending team. In fact I'd like to see them in the playoffs because I'm fearful that they will be physically overmatched in playoff basketball.

Markieff is one of the best players off the bench this year. That puts him at above average.

 

[Errntknght]

Markieff is one of the best players off the bench this year. That puts him at above average.

If he can keep it up fairly consistently during the stretch run then I'll agree with you.

 

[Catlover]

If he can keep it up fairly consistently during the stretch run then I'll agree with you.

So when you called him average you were really rating him based on how you think he will play rather than how he has played this season? I'm not trying to be a smartass but I just don't see how someone could have watched every game this season and called Markieff's performance average.

Prior to this season he was a well below average player but this season he has been well above average. I have no idea what the future will hold. I can understand wanting to hold back judgement because of the fairly small sample size but I can't understand anything other than accolades for his performance this season.

 

[Cheesebeef]

So when you called him average you were really rating him based on how you think he will play rather than how he has played this season? I'm not trying to be a smartass but I just don't see how someone could have watched every game this season and called Markieff's performance average.

Prior to this season he was a well below average player but this season he has been well above average. I have no idea what the future will hold. I can understand wanting to hold back judgement because of the fairly small sample size but I can't understand anything other than accolades for his performance this season.

I think...and could be wrong...that he was saying he'd be an average starter. I think he's an above average big off the bench, but I think he'd be an average starter as a PF.

 

[Catlover]

I think...and could be wrong...that he was saying he'd be an average starter. I think he's an above average big off the bench, but I think he'd be an average starter as a PF.

Except he also said that "without improvement they are still backup players". They come in off the bench so they are in fact backup players but when you add in the "average" comment it seems to imply league wide average. As a starter I really don't know where Markieff would rate. Pair him next to a top 5 center and I think he becomes a star but put him next to a Channing Frye and I doubt he'd ever be good enough to carry that burden. Of course I feel similarly about Frye. Put him next to a star center and he could shine but if we end up pairing him and Markieff we're just courting disaster.

 

[sunsfan88]

Kieff sometimes reminds me a lot of the '10-11 version of Lamar Odom back when he won 6MOY.

Both have comparable per 36 numbers too:

Odom with 16 pts, 10 rebounds and .7 blocks a game on 53% shooting from the field, 38% shooting from 3 and 67% shooting from the FT line. Odom had a 19.4 PER and TS percentage of 60%.

Kieff with 19 pts, 8 rebounds and 1 block a game on 47% shooting from the field, 31% shooting from 3 and 80% shooting from the FT line. Kieff has a 18.4 per and TS percentage of 55%.

Odom's obviously more efficient and a better rebounder but both, like I said, are similar versatile players.

 

[elindholm]

http://stats.nba.com/playerVsPlayer.html?PlayerID=200794&VsPlayerID=202693&PerMode=Per36

I tried to come up with a closest match for Markieff Morris, and Paul Millsap was the best could find. That's not to say that they are especially similar, but I think they're more similar than Morris is with any other starting PF in the league. The above per-36 stat comparison shows that, numerically, they are pretty close.

If Morris could match Millsap's production, that would probably put him about average among the league's starting PFs. I realize that Millsap snuck onto the All-Star team this year, but that was in a conference with very few prototypical big men. So I think the main question is whether Morris can continue to do what he's done this year if carrying a heavier minutes load and going up against other teams' top players more regularly.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Kieff sometimes reminds me a lot of the '10-11 version of Lamar Odom back when he won 6MOY.

Both have comparable per 36 numbers too:

Odom with 16 pts, 10 rebounds and .7 blocks a game on 53% shooting from the field, 38% shooting from 3 and 67% shooting from the FT line. Odom had a 19.4 PER and TS percentage of 60%.

Kieff with 19 pts, 8 rebounds and 1 block a game on 47% shooting from the field, 31% shooting from 3 and 80% shooting from the FT line. Kieff has a 18.4 per and TS percentage of 55%.

Odom's obviously more efficient and a better rebounder but both, like I said, are similar versatile players.

Odom could also run the offense and create for himself AND others, which makes him much more versatile then Kieff. Those guys aren't really much the same at all to me. You're not seeing Kieff take someone off the dribble and score/dish the way Odom could.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Except he also said that "without improvement they are still backup players". They come in off the bench so they are in fact backup players but when you add in the "average" comment it seems to imply league wide average. As a starter I really don't know where Markieff would rate. Pair him next to a top 5 center and I think he becomes a star but put him next to a Channing Frye and I doubt he'd ever be good enough to carry that burden. Of course I feel similarly about Frye. Put him next to a star center and he could shine but if we end up pairing him and Markieff we're just courting disaster.

I don't think either of those guys could be stars next to great Cs.

 

[Catlover]

I don't think either of those guys could be stars next to great Cs.

Just so we're talking about the same thing, by star I meant a legit All Star player or thereabouts. I could be wrong but that's what I see when I watch Markieff (not Marcus). I see a player on his good nights that's one of the better power forwards in the league. If he were a wing player maybe I'd write off his good nights to the streakiness of shooters but it isn't really his shot that comes and goes. On his bad nights his whole game would disappear and it didn't seem to be the result of the defense he was facing. His disappearing act is happening less frequently so I choose to believe it's a problem being solved.

I think he has star potential but I do find it a bit tough to confidently predict his career growth, for a couple of reasons. First off, I think he needs to play alongside a legitimate center as so many power forwards do before he'll really be able to thrive. Secondly, he plays a lot of minutes against the other team's backup so there's always the possibility that he's excelling solely because of his matchup advantage.

 

[Catlover]

http://stats.nba.com/playerVsPlayer.html?PlayerID=200794&VsPlayerID=202693&PerMode=Per36

I tried to come up with a closest match for Markieff Morris, and Paul Millsap was the best could find. That's not to say that they are especially similar, but I think they're more similar than Morris is with any other starting PF in the league. The above per-36 stat comparison shows that, numerically, they are pretty close.

If Morris could match Millsap's production, that would probably put him about average among the league's starting PFs. I realize that Millsap snuck onto the All-Star team this year, but that was in a conference with very few prototypical big men. So I think the main question is whether Morris can continue to do what he's done this year if carrying a heavier minutes load and going up against other teams' top players more regularly.

I agree that he's probably the best comparison available but I don't think Millsap is average. Hollinger, for example, has him rated as 8th. Keef is rated at 15th for power forwards but he's playing eight fewer minutes. Paul is getting his stats against mostly starters but he's also facing the weaker Eastern competition much more often than Markieff is and most importantly, there's no reason to believe that Morris has peaked. It is true though that Markieff has yet to prove himself playing as a starter or while logging starter type minutes.

 

[sunsfan88]

Odom could also run the offense and create for himself AND others, which makes him much more versatile then Kieff. Those guys aren't really much the same at all to me. You're not seeing Kieff take someone off the dribble and score/dish the way Odom could.

Actually I have. This whole season, Kieff has used his size and speed to his advantage. When he gets a C or slow PF matched against him, he drives right by for the finish. When a SF or guard matched up against him, he posts them and kills em. He was killing Durant in the OKC game and that's why they switched Durant to Green. And when he gets doubled, he makes the right passes for the most part.

Even Eddie Johnson said recently during a game that Kieff is a very underrated passer and then I think there was an article in which Hornacek also said that Kieff is a good passer.

And he's actually very good at creating for himself on the days than he's "on". We usually just give him the ball on the low block and he either drives to the rim or dribbles to the mid range area and pulls up.

But I'll agree that he doesn't run an offense Odom did and actually bring the ball up the cough and everything. And he's probably not as good as Odom at creating for others but he's close imo.

 

[Catlover]

Lamar was an incredibly gifted player that rarely played to his ability. If he had played anywhere close to his talent level he'd easily make the NBA's top 100 when that anniversary rolls around. Markieff doesn't come close to Odom's overall ability but I wouldn't be shocked to see him put together a career that equals or exceeds Lamar's.

 

[sunsfan88]

Lamar was an incredibly gifted player that rarely played to his ability. If he had played anywhere close to his talent level he'd easily make the NBA's top 100 when that anniversary rolls around. Markieff doesn't come close to Odom's overall ability but I wouldn't be shocked to see him put together a career that equals or exceeds Lamar's.

Agreed. I think Lamar and Beasley are two guys who could have had at least long solid careers if they had the right attitude and mindset.

 

[PhxGametime]

I'm going to have-to eat crow, regarding Morrii - they've been great, great back ups with high level starter potential (mostly Markieff) but both have been solid. I didn't think they'd fit this current Team, though I outside of Trade proposals (before season) and dislike at Draft time - I've become big time fans of theirs.

 

[JustWinBaby]

If your goal was to insult me, success. If your goal was to display a lack of reading comprehension, again success. I never compared anyone let alone the twins to Dudley. I only suggested I'd be happy with them getting similar contract offers to what the Suns paid Dudley.

Sorry about that.

I just get bugged whenever Dudley's contract is brought up. It was and I expect still is regarded one of the best bargains in the league. I disagreed with that at the time and still do.

 

[KloD]

Sorry about that.

I just get bugged whenever Dudley's contract is brought up. It was and I expect still is regarded one of the best bargains in the league. I disagreed with that at the time and still do.

No big deal, we're good.

 

[sunsfan88]

This win looks a bit less impressive now that even the Lakers just beat OKC. Like Green, Jordie Meeks dropped over 40 on em.

 

[Mainstreet]

This win looks a bit less impressive now that even the Lakers just beat OKC. Like Green, Jordie Meeks dropped over 40 on em.

The Suns destroyed their confidence.

 

[Hoop Head]

This win looks a bit less impressive now that even the Lakers just beat OKC. Like Green, Jordie Meeks dropped over 40 on em.

Not saying it's the case but the loss to Phoenix could have started a slide for the them, shaking their confidence a good bit. OKC is one of the top 3-4 teams in the league and a game against a fringe playoff team like Phoenix without much of a frontline was probably seen as a gimme by them.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Not saying it's the case but the loss to Phoenix could have started a slide for the them, shaking their confidence a good bit. OKC is one of the top 3-4 teams in the league and a game against a fringe playoff team like Phoenix without much of a frontline was probably seen as a gimme by them.

they've been struggling ever since Westbrook came back.

still doesn't make it any less credible of a win for me. any win at this point is a good W.

 

[Hoop Head]

they've been struggling ever since Westbrook came back.

still doesn't make it any less credible of a win for me. any win at this point is a good W.

I agree with you, I don't see the point that Sunsfan88 was making about the win meaning less since the Thunder just lost to the Lakers. Regardless of the reason they aren't playing great right now I don't see that any reason to view the win differently. It was one of the best wins of the season so far, I think the 2 Indy wins were probably our best wins of the year, the first because we put up 124 and beat the best defense in the league by 24 points. The second game because we beat them again just over a week later in Indianapolis which kind of made the point that the first one wasn't a fluke.

 

[Catlover]

I agree with you, I don't see the point that Sunsfan88 was making about the win meaning less since the Thunder just lost to the Lakers. Regardless of the reason they aren't playing great right now I don't see that any reason to view the win differently. It was one of the best wins of the season so far, I think the 2 Indy wins were probably our best wins of the year, the first because we put up 124 and beat the best defense in the league by 24 points. The second game because we beat them again just over a week later in Indianapolis which kind of made the point that the first one wasn't a fluke.

I agree, nothing takes away from our win against the Thunder. We played like we were the better team in Indiana even though they clearly had something to prove against us so for me that was our strongest performance.

I enjoyed the OKC game, for me it's easily our most entertaining performance, but they gave us that chance to beat them. They did the same thing with the Lakers, they built a big lead and then they got complacent. We got hot when they did that with us and the Lakers did likewise. It can be awfully tough to break momentum when you give it away like that. So many times through the years I've watched us dominate a lesser opponent and then cringed as we started coasting. We've lost to a lot of weaker teams by doing that, it was nice to be on the other side for one of the few times I can remember.