Trade down scenarios with the #1 pick

[BleedRed]

I don’t know how many games y’all watched but I watched every game I could. He may not have been bolted to the floor in the lane but a lot of the commentary paints an image of Ayton parked at the arc defensively and that just wasn’t the case. A full additional block per game is a big overstatement. I could see, at most, an additional half block a game and even then I’m not sold that is accurate. His defensive awareness and timing in rim protection was less than impressive.

Tell me one 7 footer who's primary defensive responsibility is not protecting the rim who is considered a shot blocker. ....... doubt you can name one. Ayton was clearly playing out of position. Getting the number one pick this year is a big deal, especially when their is a generational talent like Ayton. Unfortunately we're in that period of overanalyzing and undervalueing... Ayton will prove many wrong starting in the summer league. The doubters alone while fuel him defensively and some coaching at the 5 and a player like chandler to mentor him. ... poo, can't wait to watch this kid in a Suns uni.

 

[Hoop Head]

Tell me one 7 footer who's primary defensive responsibility is not protecting the rim who is considered a shot blocker. ....... doubt you can name one. Ayton was clearly playing out of position. Getting the number one pick this year is a big deal, especially when their is a generational talent like Ayton. Unfortunately we're in that period of overanalyzing and undervalueing... Ayton will prove many wrong starting in the summer league. The doubters alone while fuel him defensively and some coaching at the 5 and a player like chandler to mentor him. ... ****, can't wait to watch this kid in a Suns uni.

Not really sure what you're asking for there. A defender who isn't the primary rim protector who is good at blocking shots? Anthony Davis comes to mind but he's listed at 6'11, so does that disqualify him? He did lead the league in blocks also. Andrei Kirilenko in his prime was great at sailing in from the weakside for blocks also, before injuries slowed him down too much. Garnett wasn't his teams primary rim protector until the end of his career but he was a good shot blocker. Josh Smith also put up some gaudy block numbers as well as a stretch 4. Not really sure what you are asking for though.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

I don’t know how many games y’all watched but I watched every game I could. He may not have been bolted to the floor in the lane but a lot of the commentary paints an image of Ayton parked at the arc defensively and that just wasn’t the case. A full additional block per game is a big overstatement. I could see, at most, an additional half block a game and even then I’m not sold that is accurate. His defensive awareness and timing in rim protection was less than impressive.

This is correct. He is extremely passive on defense and gets lost in space. He isn't a good rim protector at this time.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

BTW this is a big topic of conversation on 98.7 during the Bickley show. Jared on the show is a giant U of A fan who watched every game that Ayton played in college. He basically echoed everything that Ouchie said with the caveat that he doesn't think he is a generational talent.

Basically he was dominant for about 6 games and very passive in rest. He rebounds well but nothing else is elite.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Now again that is one guys opinion but the overall arch of the show was that they would take Ayton but its very likely he won't be the best player in 3 years. He is just the best player now.

 

[Cheesebeef]

BTW this is a big topic of conversation on 98.7 during the Bickley show. Jared on the show is a giant U of A fan who watched every game that Ayton played in college. He basically echoed everything that Ouchie said with the caveat that he doesn't think he is a generational talent.

Basically he was dominant for about 6 games and very passive in rest. He rebounds well but nothing else is elite.

you don't score 20 ppg in college... as a freshman... with horrendous guard play if you don't have elite scoring ability.

Say what you want about his D (and there's room to say a lot), but saying he's not an elite scorer, with elite skills from a 5 just doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

I kinda wonder if he's getting the treatment I erroneously gave Tatum last year. Thinking he was pretty much a finished product and ceiling wouldn't get much higher. I was dead wrong there and think you'll be proven dead wrong here. This dude offensive arsenal for a freshman is pretty stunning and I think he's got the ability to get much much better.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Now again that is one guys opinion but the overall arch of the show was that they would take Ayton but its very likely he won't be the best player in 3 years. He is just the best player now.

people are acting like Ayton is fifth year senior though, IMO. He's not even close to a finished product and yet he put up outstanding rebounding numbers and was an elite scorer... again... as a freshman.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

you don't score 20 ppg in college... as a freshman... with horrendous guard play if you don't have elite scoring ability.

Say what you want about his D (and there's room to say a lot), but saying he's not an elite scorer, with elite skills from a 5 just doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

Good video about this. Under our page look at Ayton's weaknesses.

Basically they 100% dispute the idea that he was on the perimeter.

They show him standing in the middle of the lane and making zero effort to block shots on drives.

The offensive identity is also what they bring up here.

http://www.espn.com/nba/team/_/name/phx/phoenix-suns

 

[Chris_Sanders]

people are acting like Ayton is fifth year senior though, IMO. He's not even close to a finished product and yet he put up outstanding rebounding numbers and was an elite scorer... again... as a freshman.

People are disputing that he is a "generational" big man.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Found the article they were discussing

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/23765414/2018-nba-draft-best-player-go-no-1-overall

Then there's Ayton, who has new-age qualities with his shooting, passing potential, ability to score against a switch and agility for his size as a perimeter defender. Yet his mediocre defensive instincts and lack of a clear elite skill -- outside of rebounding -- are reasons for concern. Embiid, Gobert and Anthony Davis all helped their teams advance in playoffs by being among the most impactful defensive players in the league. If Ayton can't match that, how high is his ceiling?

There are some big praises though and this is what I agree with

Because of his sheer physicality and continually improving skill level, Ayton is going to be a 20-and-10 threat early on in his career. He has arguably the best combination of floor and ceiling in the draft, and even if his work ethic doesn't evolve and his struggles with feel and decision-making on defense persist, it seems unlikely that he completely busts at the NBA level given his physical gifts and talent. There's comfort in knowing that he'll be productive while providing fans enough highlights to keep them coming to games. Ayton's development situation will play a big role in how he pans out, as he still has a handful of bad habits to cut.

Then who will be the best

Schmitz: I'll go with Ayton, Doncic and Bamba, with Jackson right on the fringe. As we often harp on, so much of what a player does or does not become is a product of situation. It's not out of the question that, in the right situation, Jackson could very well be the best player from this group long-term. It's just as likely that Bamba could end up with a less than desirable franchise and fail to maximize his potential, never improving the motor that's in question. Even Ayton could struggle to improve his work habits and discipline if mired in a losing environment, failing to ever impact winning like some had hoped. And it might be most likely that at least one player selected outside the top five or 10 becomes one of the top three players to come out of this draft (see Donovan Mitchell).

The term "best" could also be interpreted in different ways. Guys like Bamba and Jackson may never be 20 point per game scorers in the NBA, but their switching, rim protection and timely 3s could impact winning more than Ayton's 25-and-15 games with sub-par defense and contested midrange jumpers.

 

[BleedRed]

Ayton is the only big in this draft who has a chance if being generational in my opinion. We already have one dimensional seven footers in the league and that's all Bamba and JJJ are and will be. But anyways I'm not going to get into this video shows this and this nobody talent evaluator says that, or I work at the post office and have never played an organized sport in my life and think Ayton is. ... whatever. My opinion is he's going to be a generational big and I still can't believe we're in position to take him. We can ask reference back in a few years and look stupid for our uneducated guesses at anything. For the record I think Ayton will be an all star by year two.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Ayton is the only big in this draft who has a chance if being generational in my opinion. We already have one dimensional seven footers in the league and that's all Bamba and JJJ are and will be. But anyways I'm not going to get into this video shows this and this nobody talent evaluator says that, or I work at the post office and have never played an organized sport in my life and think Ayton is. ... whatever. My opinion is he's going to be a generational big and I still can't believe we're in position to take him. We can ask reference back in a few years and look stupid for our uneducated guesses at anything. For the record I think Ayton will be an all star by year two.

Well one of the guys in that video is Jonathan Givony of Draft Express who pretty much watches scouting film all day and is a widely respected draft expert.

The other played in the NBA for a decade.

So I think those are the opposite of what you stated here.

 

[BleedRed]

Well one of the guys in that video is Jonathan Givony of Draft Express who pretty much watches scouting film all day and is a widely respected draft expert.

The other played in the NBA for a decade.

So I think those are the opposite of what you stated here.

There are hundreds of so called experts this time of the year and that includes many who played in the league and just trying to find that second career. You don't really even need to respond to my posts, I rarely even post here because when I do I just get jumped by the negative regulars. I'm excited about this draft and the opportunity to add a very talented 5 to our core and optimistic about the other picks we have as well. Grew up in Tempe listening to the Suns on 620 and attending a game here or there when my pops could swing tickets .... loved those old playoff teams of KJ, Chambers, Thunder Dan, ...my son is 12, he loves the Suns now too, hopeful for some playoff basketball in the near future. Sorry if you'll be disapointed when that happens soon. Go Suns! Ayton or bust. Prove the haters wrong.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Literally everyone wants to draft Ayton yet there are "Haters" and "People will be disappointed when we make the playoffs"

It's over the top crap like this...

Look Bleedred. You don't get to tell people who gets to respond to you. You don't get to pretend you are some better fan than anyone else and not get called on it.

 

[BleedRed]

Literally everyone wants to draft Ayton yet there are "Haters" and "People will be disappointed when we make the playoffs"

It's over the top crap like this...

Look Bleedred. You don't get to tell people who gets to respond to you. You don't get to pretend you are some better fan than anyone else and not get called on it.

Look Chris you don't get to tell people whos evaluations are the right ones and who's are wrong. ... oh well maybe you do get to do that. Personally I think zero of your opinion. And I never said I was better than anyone else. Just that I grew up around this team and optimistic for the future.

 

[Cheesebeef]

People are disputing that he is a "generational" big man.

no... you're saying he does nothing elite besides rebound and I just don't think that's the case on the offensive end.

and that he only dominated 6 times last year. Which is a quite frankly a joke. Dude scored 26 or more 13 times last, while recording 25 double doubles and averaging 20 ppg.

What exactly are you expecting from a freshman?

You realize that Davis only averaged 14 ppg, right? That Shaq only averaged 15 ppg as a freshman? That KAT only averaged 15 ppg as a freshman?

Again, concerns about Ayton's D are COMPLETELY VALID, but to denigrate him by saying he "only dominated 6 games" last year when most freshman would KILL to dominate 6 games and play like a beast in at least 10 others is pretty ridiculous.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Good video about this. Under our page look at Ayton's weaknesses.

Basically they 100% dispute the idea that he was on the perimeter.

They show him standing in the middle of the lane and making zero effort to block shots on drives.

The offensive identity is also what they bring up here.

http://www.espn.com/nba/team/_/name/phx/phoenix-suns

did you even read my post? If so, I don't know why you're bringing up D when I specifically said he deserves brows raised about his skills there.

 

[BleedRed]

Literally everyone wants to draft Ayton yet there are "Haters" and "People will be disappointed when we make the playoffs"

It's over the top crap like this...

Look Bleedred. You don't get to tell people who gets to respond to you. You don't get to pretend you are some better fan than anyone else and not get called on it.

And btw i didn't say you can't respond to my posts, only that you don't have to. Haha and what did I get called out on anyways, that I love the Suns and grew up on them? I'm sure many fall in the same boat. ... our was it that I think Ayton is generational? There are a ton of so called "experts" who think that as well, probably even as many who think he's not. Only stating my opinion.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

did you even read my post? If so, I don't know why you're bringing up D when I specifically said he deserves brows raised about his skills there.

I did yes. Sorry that was in response to the reason his blocks are down is solely because of where he played, which wasn't by you.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

no... you're saying he does nothing elite besides rebound and I just don't think that's the case on the offensive end.

and that he only dominated 6 times last year. Which is a quite frankly a joke. Dude scored 26 or more 13 times last, while recording 25 double doubles and averaging 20 ppg.

What exactly are you expecting from a freshman?

You realize that Davis only averaged 14 ppg, right? That Shaq only averaged 15 ppg as a freshman? That KAT only averaged 15 ppg as a freshman?

Again, concerns about Ayton's D are COMPLETELY VALID, but to denigrate him by saying he "only dominated 6 games" last year when most freshman would KILL to dominate 6 games and play like a beast in at least 10 others is pretty ridiculous.

I wasn't saying it. I am just saying what the discussion on Bickley's show was today since it and David Johnson was all they really talked about.

I just had to find the article that they were referencing to give clarity.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

And yes I agree that his stats as a freshmen are fantastic from an offensive and rebounding end.

I thought it was funny in the article that they were like "Well when he scores 20 and 10" like it wasn't that impressive.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Look Chris you don't get to tell people whos evaluations are the right ones and who's are wrong. ... oh well maybe you do get to do that. Personally I think zero of your opinion. And I never said I was better than anyone else. Just that I grew up around this team and optimistic for the future.

I welcome you to expound upon your love of Ayton and why you think he is a generational talent that we shouldn't even consider another player. By all means post articles, videos, whatever you like.

Discussion is the point of a message board.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

There are hundreds of so called experts this time of the year and that includes many who played in the league and just trying to find that second career. You don't really even need to respond to my posts, I rarely even post here because when I do I just get jumped by the negative regulars. I'm excited about this draft and the opportunity to add a very talented 5 to our core and optimistic about the other picks we have as well. Grew up in Tempe listening to the Suns on 620 and attending a game here or there when my pops could swing tickets .... loved those old playoff teams of KJ, Chambers, Thunder Dan, ...my son is 12, he loves the Suns now too, hopeful for some playoff basketball in the near future. Sorry if you'll be disapointed when that happens soon. Go Suns! Ayton or bust. Prove the haters wrong.

Lol, your last few posts were the most negative posts in here in a month.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

no... you're saying he does nothing elite besides rebound and I just don't think that's the case on the offensive end.

and that he only dominated 6 times last year. Which is a quite frankly a joke. Dude scored 26 or more 13 times last, while recording 25 double doubles and averaging 20 ppg.

What exactly are you expecting from a freshman?

You realize that Davis only averaged 14 ppg, right? That Shaq only averaged 15 ppg as a freshman? That KAT only averaged 15 ppg as a freshman?

Again, concerns about Ayton's D are COMPLETELY VALID, but to denigrate him by saying he "only dominated 6 games" last year when most freshman would KILL to dominate 6 games and play like a beast in at least 10 others is pretty ridiculous.

In chris’ Defense I don’t think HE was saying that, I think he was pointing out that others in an article or podcast were saying that.

 

[Mainstreet]

I'm a little uncertain where the division happens to be on Ayton other than rim protection.