Trail Blazers @ Suns 1-24-18

[taz02]

I just don't know why anyone would expect something else from this roster? The NBA is a grown man's game and we play 10 guys that average 22 years of age (Booker, Oubre, Jackson, Ayton, Okobo, Melton, Holmes, Bender, Bridges, Warren. That's an awful lot of players who are not yet what they will become.

Portland and Denver are both younger teams and have both won more than 30 games.

I'm sure there are nuances that I don't feel like researching

 

[AzStevenCal]

Portland and Denver are both younger teams and have both won more than 30 games.

I'm sure there are nuances that I don't feel like researching

Denver is a really young team, almost as young as we are but history shows they are a rarity. Portland is quite a bit older than either Denver or Phoenix. Our team might appear older on paper than it really is because of the age of Crawford and Anderson (and Ariza pre-trade) but Anderson never plays and Crawford shouldn't and they are not part of even our near future. Portland BTW has 6 players that log regular minutes that fall in the prime 26 to 30 group, we have ZERO. Those aren't nuances.

 

[AzStevenCal]

It's insane I see Ayton drop 24 in a quarter they have no answers for him at all then get no touches in the second half. Im so tired of this BS with Igor.

This team has to much talent to be this bad

Every team has talent, the only ones with less developed talent than we have are in contention with us for the worst record.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Yeah no. This ain't a 35 year old Tim Duncan this is a 22 year Old Devin Booker.

You ride the hot hand. KD the other day came out and aid they sold out just to get Klay the ball when he was hot the other day. It's What all good teams do. This happens way to much with Igor he doesn't read the team he's clueless

It's a 22 year old Devin Booker that between injuries and rehabbing has missed much of the season and probably hasn't even been able to get into game shape yet. And if you've been watching this team regularly you've seen that Devin gets tired and sloppy the longer he's out there.

 

[Chaplin]

It's insane I see Ayton drop 24 in a quarter they have no answers for him at all then get no touches in the second half. Im so tired of this BS with Igor.

This team has to much talent to be this bad

I'm much more concerned with your Ayton quote than I am with Booker sitting in the 2nd quarter.

 

[Mainstreet]

How about Total Eclipse of the Suns. They disappear from sight.

How about the "next year" Suns.

 

[taz02]

I somehow deleted the end of my previous post before hitting reply.

To clarify: I know youth is a factor but IMO the team is under performing.

By nuances I meant I didn't feel like researching the age of various line ups with multiple teams. Again, I'm not suggesting that the team isn't young or that youth isn't a variable. Its just starting to feel like an excuse to me.

Teams can and do win with young players, maybe not 50 games but 30 wins in a season doesn't seem unreasonable if the young guys are talented well coached.

Holmes and Oubre are 25 and 23 respectively. A line up of Booker, Holmes, Oubre, TJ and Crawford is 26.6 yoa. Replace Oubre with Ayton and the line up would be 26 yoa.

Maybe the older guys should be starting or at least logging more minutes if youth is such a problem. Crawford and Melton have the same assist numbers and Crawford scores 1 ppg more than Melton in 3 less minutes.

Why not at least try a staring line up of:

Crawford
Booker
Holmes
Oubre
Ayton

(25.6 yoa)

I guess I have just grown tired of the "youth" excuse and wanted to make the point that other teams win with youth and we do have the option of playing older players more minutes but choose not too.

 

[95pro]

Crawford and Book next to each other on defense?

Holmes and Ayton can't shoot further than 20ft.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I somehow deleted the end of my previous post before hitting reply.

To clarify: I know youth is a factor but IMO the team is under performing.

By nuances I meant I didn't feel like researching the age of various line ups with multiple teams. Again, I'm not suggesting that the team isn't young or that youth isn't a variable. Its just starting to feel like an excuse to me.

Teams can and do win with young players, maybe not 50 games but 30 wins in a season doesn't seem unreasonable if the young guys are talented well coached.

Holmes and Oubre are 25 and 23 respectively. A line up of Booker, Holmes, Oubre, TJ and Crawford is 26.6 yoa. Replace Oubre with Ayton and the line up would be 26 yoa.

Maybe the older guys should be starting or at least logging more minutes if youth is such a problem. Crawford and Melton have the same assist numbers and Crawford scores 1 ppg more than Melton in 3 less minutes.

Why not at least try a staring line up of:

Crawford
Booker
Holmes
Oubre
Ayton

(25.6 yoa)

I guess I have just grown tired of the "youth" excuse and wanted to make the point that other teams win with youth and we do have the option of playing older players more minutes but choose not too.

Youth is a huge factor and it's not just an excuse although sure, they might be underperforming somewhat too. But just playing our older players isn't the solution at all IMO, at least not Crawford. Even if he made us better (and I don't believe he does) it would just prolong the development period for Melton and Okobo and to what end, a couple more wins in a lost season?

Our biggest problem IMO is that we have a lot of players that are pre-peak, some of whom are years away from hitting their prime AND we have ZERO quality players that are actually in their prime. Maybe there's a handful of coaches such as Pop that would have these guys playing a little better but our current roster makeup would be an incredible hurdle to overcome even for the best coaching staffs in the league.

 

[Finito]

It's a 22 year old Devin Booker that between injuries and rehabbing has missed much of the season and probably hasn't even been able to get into game shape yet. And if you've been watching this team regularly you've seen that Devin gets tired and sloppy the longer he's out there.

Excuses..

I don't want to hear about a 22 year old NBA player getting tired in January

 

[AzStevenCal]

Excuses..

I don't want to hear about a 22 year old NBA player getting tired in January

And I don't care what you want to hear about. It happens, you can either deal with it or cover your eyes and ears.

 

[BC867]

Excuses..

I don't want to hear about a 22 year old NBA player getting tired in January

He's a 44 year old player as the best shooter AND best distributor on the court for the Suns.

 

[Finito]

And I don't care what you want to hear about. It happens, you can either deal with it or cover your eyes and ears.

Lol. He's in his 4th year he's not a kid anymore. Stop making excuses for him and this team.

 

[SirStefan32]

Lol. He's in his 4th year he's not a kid anymore. Stop making excuses for him and this team.

Yes, he is a kid by the NBA standards. These things are not excuses. They are facts. Players enter their prime around the age of 26-27, and remain there until they are about 31-32. Suns have nothing in that range. Yeah, they will be less consistent, less durable too. It's not just their basketball minds that are not fully developed- their bodies are not fully developed.

I get that you are frustrated. I am too. I am sure Steve is frustrated too. Everyone on this board is frustrated. Facts, however, don't care about frustration. Frustration is not going to make Booker, Jackson, Bridges, Oubre, and Ayton add dozen pounds of muscle each, and it's not going to give them additional five years of experience a piece.

 

[1tinsoldier]

is the "Booker gets tired" excuse coming from someone who raged against the "Booker is over-extended playing pg and top scorer" argument?

 

[Hoop Head]

Lol. He's in his 4th year he's not a kid anymore. Stop making excuses for him and this team.

No one is making excuses. This team sucks and is years away from competing. It's that simple. If you don't like it then don't watch because nothing is going to happen that miraculously transports these players into their prime versions of themselves. I bet Warriors fans had similar complaints when they started a backcourt of Curry and Klay and everyone gave them nicknames but they couldn't sniff the playoffs or actually win consistently. They stuck with it and built a title team over time though because they were patient and let their youth develop together, like many believe OKC should have done with Harden, Westbrook, and Durant. They were awful in their first 2 years in OKC and then they started tearing up the league without the benefit Golden State had of adding a veteran like Iggy. Their owner got cold feet at the luxury tax when it looked like they were a Dynasty in the making and now they're talked about as one of the NBA's biggest "What if" sort of situations.

You need to let young players develop and take their lumps, it sucks for fans but it can and does pay off. At least we're not the shmucks paying 2 grand a seat for courtside season tickets, we just pay $100 or so bucks for League Pass. The worst should be behind us, half of our young core wasn't here last year, let these guys develop some chemistry with each other.

 

[Finito]

You can't play this BS about guys not being in there prime. This is the NBA. Ben Simmons is 22. Guys have dominated out of high school this is not well we gotta wait till there 26 no the NBA doesn't work that way. That excuse don't fly in the NBA . Giannis is 23/24? He's a kid to and an MVP candidate at this point. I love Booker but it's his 4th year and it's pretty clear he doesn't make guys better.

The Kings have won 20 plus games this year. Why? Because they play hard every damn night,have you watched them?

This team is lazy I've never seen a team not come ready to play like they do I've never seen a team start games this bad.

I've never seen a team play great one night against a top team then get blown out by a team like the nets. You know why that happens? Effort. This team ain't good enough to not play hard every night but they think they are.

That also falls on the coach.

It's not that they are losing its the way they are losing. Most 20+ losses in a season record coming soon.

Look at the Kings.

 

[Hoop Head]

You can't play this BS about guys not being in there prime. This is the NBA. Ben Simmons is 22. Guys have dominated out of high school this is not well we gotta wait till there 26 no the NBA doesn't work that way. That excuse don't fly in the NBA . Giannis is 23/24? He's a kid to and an MVP candidate at this point. I love Booker but it's his 4th year and it's pretty clear he doesn't make guys better.

The Kings have won 20 plus games this year. Why? Because they play hard every damn night,have you watched them?

This team is lazy I've never seen a team not come ready to play like they do I've never seen a team start games this bad.

I've never seen a team play great one night against a top team then get blown out by a team like the nets. You know why that happens? Effort. This team ain't good enough to not play hard every night but they think they are.

That also falls on the coach.

It's not that they are losing its the way they are losing. Most 20+ losses in a season record coming soon.

Look at the Kings.

Ok, Ben Simmons had a year to learn the NBA system before he played a single game. When he did debut he was rookie of the year, who on our team is the top player from their draft class? Yes, Simmons is great but he's the exception to the rule and not a not a case for saying that all 22 years old who have been in the NBA one year should be putting up All-Star numbers. You expect Ayton to lead us to the playoffs as a rookie because Ben Simmons did that for the Sixers? It doesn't matter they are completely different players with entirely different backgrounds either, we should be in the playoffs, right? It only took Lebron 3 years to make the playoffs but that doesn't matter, the Suns suck.

Let's look at the Kings, they have 1 starter that is 21, De'Aaron Fox. The rest are Buddy Hield who is 26, Cauley-Stein is 25, Shumpert is 28, and Bjelica is 30. That definitely compares to the Suns. They have more experience, they are more mature and their games are more mature. Is that really so hard to see?

Giannis' nickname is the Greak Freak because he's not normal. I wish we had a player like him we don't. You don't get called "freak" because you're normal. He's 7 foot tall and has the ball handling skills of a PG with the strength of a PF and the jumping ability of virtually no one in NBA history. He's able to leap over and around people to dunk from anywhere within the 3pt line, it's crazy. He makes prime Amare look like New York Knicks Amare by comparison. His athleticism is insane and he's on track to break the single season record for dunks in a year and he's a Guard/Forward combo. 25% of his shots are dunks and no non-Center has ever had that sort of average before, especially someone who averages 17 shots a game. You want to compare that guy to Booker? Ok, that's fair. He's only been in the NBA for 2 whole seasons longer and has a team around him that is all older than he is with Brogdan being 26, Middleton is 27, Bledsoe is 29, and Lopez is 30. He also has a highly respected and successful head coach this year, someone who the Suns tried to hire but he turned the Suns down. We don't know why Budenholzer turned the Suns down but he did. They did try though so it was an attempt to not be bad.

Young teams are inconsistent and comparing the Suns to the Kings is faulty because there really isn't a fair comparison between the ages of the players on each team. You can say you haven't seen a team be this lazy and that could be true, I don't know what you've seen but I bet if you watched the Sixers before Simmons and Embiid you'd have seen a similarly "lazy" team. They happen to have the same coach now they did then also so it's not all on the coach, it's that young players aren't used to the NBA grind and that's why you hear things about the "Rookie Wall" that players hit, it's actually fairly common. The Suns aren't the first or the last team to suffer from it. That doesn't make the games where they suck any easier to deal with but perhaps if you didn't compare them to teams that are much older then they you wouldn't have unrealistic expectations.


You keep mentioning the Suns setting the record for the most 20+ point losses, who holds that record and when it was set? I'll bet that team was young. I don't know who it was but since you seem so aware the Suns are on their way of surpassing it why don't you fill us in?

This season sucks, no one says it doesn't but it also shouldn't be a shock. No one is saying the Suns are good either but that doesn't seem to matter to you. You take any post that doesn't bash the team as someone making excuses when that's not happening. Some of us choose not to wallow in misery and look at the bright side, as hard as it is to see. You don't have to follow the team and if you don't like watching them or talking about then don't, it's that simple. Sports are supposed to be fun and if you aren't having fun following the team then stop, it's that simple. There is no sense in taking it personally because others don't view the team as negatively as you do and don't want to see stop gaps so they can appear a little better then they currently are.

 

[1Sun]

Ok, Ben Simmons had a year to learn the NBA system before he played a single game. When he did debut he was rookie of the year, who on our team is the top player from their draft class? Yes, Simmons is great but he's the exception to the rule and not a not a case for saying that all 22 years old who have been in the NBA one year should be putting up All-Star numbers. You expect Ayton to lead us to the playoffs as a rookie because Ben Simmons did that for the Sixers? It doesn't matter they are completely different players with entirely different backgrounds either, we should be in the playoffs, right? It only took Lebron 3 years to make the playoffs but that doesn't matter, the Suns suck.

Let's look at the Kings, they have 1 starter that is 21, De'Aaron Fox. The rest are Buddy Hield who is 26, Cauley-Stein is 25, Shumpert is 28, and Bjelica is 30. That definitely compares to the Suns. They have more experience, they are more mature and their games are more mature. Is that really so hard to see?

Giannis' nickname is the Greak Freak because he's not normal. I wish we had a player like him we don't. You don't get called "freak" because you're normal. He's 7 foot tall and has the ball handling skills of a PG with the strength of a PF and the jumping ability of virtually no one in NBA history. He's able to leap over and around people to dunk from anywhere within the 3pt line, it's crazy. He makes prime Amare look like New York Knicks Amare by comparison. His athleticism is insane and he's on track to break the single season record for dunks in a year and he's a Guard/Forward combo. 25% of his shots are dunks and no non-Center has ever had that sort of average before, especially someone who averages 17 shots a game. You want to compare that guy to Booker? Ok, that's fair. He's only been in the NBA for 2 whole seasons longer and has a team around him that is all older than he is with Brogdan being 26, Middleton is 27, Bledsoe is 29, and Lopez is 30. He also has a highly respected and successful head coach this year, someone who the Suns tried to hire but he turned the Suns down. We don't know why Budenholzer turned the Suns down but he did. They did try though so it was an attempt to not be bad.

Young teams are inconsistent and comparing the Suns to the Kings is faulty because there really isn't a fair comparison between the ages of the players on each team. You can say you haven't seen a team be this lazy and that could be true, I don't know what you've seen but I bet if you watched the Sixers before Simmons and Embiid you'd have seen a similarly "lazy" team. They happen to have the same coach now they did then also so it's not all on the coach, it's that young players aren't used to the NBA grind and that's why you hear things about the "Rookie Wall" that players hit, it's actually fairly common. The Suns aren't the first or the last team to suffer from it. That doesn't make the games where they suck any easier to deal with but perhaps if you didn't compare them to teams that are much older then they you wouldn't have unrealistic expectations.


You keep mentioning the Suns setting the record for the most 20+ point losses, who holds that record and when it was set? I'll bet that team was young. I don't know who it was but since you seem so aware the Suns are on their way of surpassing it why don't you fill us in?

This season sucks, no one says it doesn't but it also shouldn't be a shock. No one is saying the Suns are good either but that doesn't seem to matter to you. You take any post that doesn't bash the team as someone making excuses when that's not happening. Some of us choose not to wallow in misery and look at the bright side, as hard as it is to see. You don't have to follow the team and if you don't like watching them or talking about then don't, it's that simple. Sports are supposed to be fun and if you aren't having fun following the team then stop, it's that simple. There is no sense in taking it personally because others don't view the team as negatively as you do and don't want to see stop gaps so they can appear a little better then they currently are.

Take a look at the thread predicting number of wins for this team heading into the season. I'm the only one who was even close on that. How can you say that this season is not a shock to the rest of you? And how can you not notice how historically bad this team is and how it is worse than last season? The likes of the Warriors and even Sixers in the start of their rebuilds were never this bad.

 

[Finito]

Take a look at the thread predicting number of wins for this team heading into the season. I'm the only one who was even close on that. How can you say that this season is not a shock to the rest of you? And how can you not notice how historically bad this team is and how it is worst than last season? The likes of the Warriors and even Sixers in the start of their rebuilds were never this bad.

Lol

We've gone backwards the last 4 years our record keeps going in the wrong direction.

This was not supposed to be a bad year this was supposed to be fun competitive team this year and instead were worse than last year when we made it known we were ranking lol

Somebody explain that.

Well...uh...uh...uh.

But...but...but.

Give me a break something is seriously wrong and it's not youth if you can't see it then idk

 

[AzStevenCal]

Lol

We've gone backwards the last 4 years our record keeps going in the wrong direction.

This was not supposed to be a bad year this was supposed to be fun competitive team this year and instead were worse than last year when we made it known we were ranking lol

Somebody explain that.

Well...uh...uh...uh.

But...but...but.

Give me a break something is seriously wrong and it's not youth if you can't see it then idk

So you think they fired Ryan before the season started because we were going to be competitive?

This league is about continuity (stability) and experience (maturity). It's one of the few things that Barkley gets right when he talks about the NBA. Besides changing our management, scouting and coaching departments, we had 17 players on our roster at some point last season that aren't on our roster today. We have 10 players on our roster (most of them rookies) that weren't on our roster last season.

Sarver and the Front Office recognized we weren't going to start competing until 2020 but changed their stance (publicly) because the 21 year old face of our franchise said he didn't want to miss the playoffs any more. But wanting something doesn't change reality. We started this season with the worst point guard rotation in the league which immediately takes us out of contention. Add in the fact that our power forward rotation was arguably even worse than our PG situation and you have a team fighting for their place in history.

 

[Hoop Head]

We won 21 games last year and replaced 10 of those players with younger, inexperienced new players. In what business can you turn over 66% of your staff and increase productivity with trainees? Not to mention we have a new "manager" of sorts who is training that new staff for the first time ever. Why was this year supposed to be better?

 

[Mainstreet]

I think one of the primary reasons the Suns fired McDonough is his poor drafting and now the Suns are paying the consequences.

It would have been nice to know his plans for a starting point guard.

 

[Hoop Head]

I think one of the primary reasons the Suns fired McDonough is his poor drafting and now the Suns are paying the consequences.

It would have been nice to know his plans for a starting point guard.

It wouldn't surprise me to learn that McD was upset that Igor and Sarver didn't like his plan for a starting PG, that plan being Brandon Knight. McD said that Knight was the PG for the team during the offseason a couple of times in interviews. If Sarver was meddling like some news outlets have reported perhaps he and Jones worked the Chriss/Knight for Anderson/Melton deal to remove Knight as an option because going with youth was the right move if the alternative was Knight. McD gave up a lot for him and has never said he regretted that deal. He says he regretted the IT trade but that's it. Then he's told to find a starting PG and he can't, doesn't, or won't and is canned.

 

[Mainstreet]

It wouldn't surprise me to learn that McD was upset that Igor and Sarver didn't like his plan for a starting PG, that plan being Brandon Knight. McD said that Knight was the PG for the team during the offseason a couple of times in interviews. If Sarver was meddling like some news outlets have reported perhaps he and Jones worked the Chriss/Knight for Anderson/Melton deal to remove Knight as an option because going with youth was the right move if the alternative was Knight. McD gave up a lot for him and has never said he regretted that deal. He says he regretted the IT trade but that's it. Then he's told to find a starting PG and he can't, doesn't, or won't and is canned.

I suspect Knight was not the Suns primary plan for a starting point guard. Sure there was talk of Knight being the Suns starting point guard but I never put faith in it.

There was talk after the draft that he may have wanted to trade for a point guard. Until McDonough opens up we may never know.