Trail Blazers @ Suns game thread 2-24-18

[Mainstreet]

And before anyone tries to say Mainstreet was talking about the team starting the year with that intention, the conversation was CLEARLY about fandom and how people viewed the season.

I question whether I should dignify this with a response.

Tanking has no place in the NBA. So if I say the behavior of tanking is repugnant or abhorrent to me... well I mean it.

Only teams can tank.

However, I did not aim my words at any posters.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I question whether I should dignify this with a response.

Tanking has no place in the NBA. So if I say the behavior of tanking is repugnant or abhorrent to me... well I mean it.

Only teams can tank.

However, I did not aim my words at any posters.

But wait, you’re rooting for losses now, right? Wanting losses is wanting losses no matter when they occur.

 

[Mainstreet]

But wait, you’re rooting for losses now, right? Wanting losses is wanting losses no matter when they occur.

It's the methodology that matters to me... playing the young players.

After Bledsoe left the Suns, they were thrust into reworking the team. Also the coaching change turned the focus of the Suns into developing the young players.

I want the Suns to get a good draft pick but not at any cost.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I question whether I should dignify this with a response.

Tanking has no place in the NBA. So if I say the behavior of tanking is repugnant or abhorrent to me... well I mean it.

Only teams can tank.

However, I did not aim my words at any posters.

good grief... go look back at the conversa... actually, forget it.

You guys are right. None of you have contributed to the toxicity of the board. It's only me and the tankers. Hope you all enjoy your luxurious glass homes.

 

[Cheesebeef]

That is not calling you abhorrent... come on cheese...

Phraz... the conversation leading up to that comment was all about OUR attitudes. Not the team's. come on man.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Phraz... the conversation leading up to that comment was all about OUR attitudes. Not the team's. come on man.

Yeah you gotta look at context.

 

[AzStevenCal]

It's the methodology that matters to me... playing the young players.

After Bledsoe left the Suns, they were thrust into reworking the team. Also the coaching change turned the focus of the Suns into developing the young players.

I want the Suns to get a good draft pick but not at any cost.

I've always described myself as "anti-tank" simply because the word means something else to me. But having accepted the modern usage of the word, I have no problem with a team tanking (everyone above the level of coach, that is). I look at it this way - each team has a right to decide what is in its best interests. And that includes valuing long term decisions over the short term.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I've always described myself as "anti-tank" simply because the word means something else to me. But having accepted the modern usage of the word, I have no problem with a team tanking (everyone above the level of coach, that is). I look at it this way - each team has a right to decide what is in its best interests. And that includes valuing long term decisions over the short term.

That is a helpful distinction--above the level of coach. But what about when mgmt dictates who gets a DNP and who doesn't or playing time is dictated to a coach?

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I've always described myself as "anti-tank" simply because the word means something else to me. But having accepted the modern usage of the word, I have no problem with a team tanking (everyone above the level of coach, that is). I look at it this way - each team has a right to decide what is in its best interests. And that includes valuing long term decisions over the short term.

Amen. I support this

 

[Mainstreet]

I've always described myself as "anti-tank" simply because the word means something else to me. But having accepted the modern usage of the word, I have no problem with a team tanking (everyone above the level of coach, that is). I look at it this way - each team has a right to decide what is in its best interests. And that includes valuing long term decisions over the short term.

I do not like tanking as a means to achieving a goal. Losing should not be rewarded IMO. It may be the system but I do not have to like it.

The analytics of the way the NCAA determines which teams are in the playoffs was a direction I was leaning (towards determining the worst teams) but the way they did it this season left me with a lot of doubts.

 

[Mainstreet]

That is a helpful distinction--above the level of coach. But what about when mgmt dictates who gets a DNP and who doesn't or playing time is dictated to a coach?

The coach is going to do what management wants in terms of achieving goals. If management wants the team to focus on developing young players... that's what the coach will do. So I don't think a line can be made.

Clearly Mark Cuban went too far.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I do not like tanking as a means to achieving a goal. Losing should not be rewarded IMO. It may be the system but I do not have to like it.

The analytics of the way the NCAA determines which teams are in the playoffs was a direction I was leaning (towards determining the worst teams) but the way they did it this season left me with a lot of doubts.

I understand, I really do, and in an ideal world there would be no need of it. But Milwaukee ain't LA and Salt Lake City isn't Miami. Telling a team it can't "tank" would be dooming some franchises to mediocrity. You can't roll back the clock on free agency and you can't control the decisions of a bunch of rich young men. Tanking is sometimes the best tool in the box when you're talking about an uneven playing field.

 

[pokerface]

I understand, I really do, and in an ideal world there would be no need of it. But Milwaukee ain't LA and Salt Lake City isn't Miami. Telling a team it can't "tank" would be dooming some franchises to mediocrity. You can't roll back the clock on free agency and you can't control the decisions of a bunch of rich young men. Tanking is sometimes the best tool in the box when you're talking about an uneven playing field.

That is so well said. And part of what makes things so unequal is rich teams going over the cap. Lessor teams have to fight for scraps then already loaded teams like Golden State get bonus superstars such as Durant.

 

[Mainstreet]

I understand, I really do, and in an ideal world there would be no need of it. But Milwaukee ain't LA and Salt Lake City isn't Miami. Telling a team it can't "tank" would be dooming some franchises to mediocrity. You can't roll back the clock on free agency and you can't control the decisions of a bunch of rich young men. Tanking is sometimes the best tool in the box when you're talking about an uneven playing field.

I'm a believer in changing the way the NBA selects teams for the best draft picks. The NBA is changing the odds for the best picks next season. It's a step in the right direction. I'd take it even further or look at a new system entirely like using analytics.

Of course teams that have never had a #1 pick would move get more points.

 

[pokerface]

See the thing too is quality free agents usually gravitate towards established winners. It's the classic case of the rich getting richer.

 

[pokerface]

Funny thing...if a team sits a player with the intention of tanking that's taboo. But if they trade that same player with the same intentions it's perfectly acceptable. That's why Bledsoe should have been traded last season instead of being sat.

 

[Mainstreet]

Funny thing...if a team sits a player with the intention of tanking that's taboo. But if they trade that same player with the same intentions it's perfectly acceptable. That's why Bledsoe should have been traded last season instead of being sat.

Bledsoe should have been traded. I'm not totally sure why he wasn't. Maybe the Suns wanted to take a look at how the season unfolded first.

Then you have Kent Bazemore missing the rest of the season when he should have been traded.

http://www.nba.com/article/2018/03/12/kent-bazemore-knee-out-season

 

[AzStevenCal]

I'm fine with management telling a coach, in general terms, to develop the young players. I'd have a problem if an owner or a GM was instructing a coach to play specific lineups for specific minutes.

I'm a believer in changing the way the NBA selects teams for the best draft picks. The NBA is changing the odds for the best picks next season. It's a step in the right direction. I'd take it even further or look at a new system entirely like using analytics.

Of course teams that have never had a #1 pick would move get more points.

I actually think they're making a mistake. They'd be better off returning to a straight reverse order draft. Then, at least, you'd take away the value of tanking for the "good" bad teams as they'd know that a top pick was out of their reach. Is it really harming the game if truly bad teams play poorly?

I think there needs to be strong penalties for tanking at the player, trainer or coach level. Penalties such as a life time ban for any coach that intentionally uses a closing lineup designed to lose. But other than those kind of problems, I really have no issue with organizations trying to lose now to improve their future.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Bledsoe should have been traded. I'm not totally sure why he wasn't. Maybe the Suns wanted to take a look at how the season unfolded first.

Three major knee surgeries and rumors that his agent was going to play hardball for big bucks. Remember, even before we sat Bledsoe last year there were complaints about his sore and heavily iced knees.

 

[Phrazbit]

Phraz... the conversation leading up to that comment was all about OUR attitudes. Not the team's. come on man.

So what, he made his point in that post clear and specific. He did not call you abhorrent. If that is your best example of him getting personal then you don't have any examples.

 

[Mainstreet]

I'm fine with management telling a coach, in general terms, to develop the young players. I'd have a problem if an owner or a GM was instructing a coach to play specific lineups for specific minutes.


I actually think they're making a mistake. They'd be better off returning to a straight reverse order draft. Then, at least, you'd take away the value of tanking for the "good" bad teams as they'd know that a top pick was out of their reach. Is it really harming the game if truly bad teams play poorly?

I think there needs to be strong penalties for tanking at the player, trainer or coach level. Penalties such as a life time ban for any coach that intentionally uses a closing lineup designed to lose. But other than those kind of problems, I really have no issue with organizations trying to lose now to improve their future.

In a reverse order draft wouldn't teams be still be tanking to be as bad as they can for a better draft pick... although the better teams may have trouble getting there? Maybe this is what you are saying.

Enforcement of tanking would be hard unless there is a very strong commissioner. Punishment could be taking away their first round pick. That would get some attention.

 

[Mainstreet]

Three major knee surgeries and rumors that his agent was going to play hardball for big bucks. Remember, even before we sat Bledsoe last year there were complaints about his sore and heavily iced knees.

This definitely could have been the reason although McDonough was hoping the market would improve for Bledsoe. I think the suns could have received a first round pick for him this past off season.

 

[AzStevenCal]

This definitely could have been the reason although McDonough was hoping the market would improve for Bledsoe. I think the suns could have received a first round pick for him this past off season.

I'm sure he was but I'm not so sure about the pick. Maybe a Cleveland first but probably not a lottery pick. At that point, it's a tough sell to ownership when you want to dump one of your best players for chump change.

 

[Mainstreet]

I'm sure he was but I'm not so sure about the pick. Maybe a Cleveland first but probably not a lottery pick. At that point, it's a tough sell to ownership when you want to dump one of your best players for chump change.

Agreed, Bledsoe's value dropped after he made it clear he wanted out and the Suns still received a first round pick.

I think in the off season the Suns could have received more... I'm not sure what.

 

[pokerface]

This definitely could have been the reason although McDonough was hoping the market would improve for Bledsoe. I think the suns could have received a first round pick for him this past off season.

I think last season just before trade deadline his value was at it's peak. A team trading for him could have gotten three playoffs out of him instead of just two.