Warner, Holt, Lombardi - Total Access about Kolb

[moklerman]

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-network-total-access/09000d5d820dbce4/Is-Kolb-changing-his-feathers

Basically a consensus of "not really sure if he's worth the cost" and "would like to see more".

 

[Zeno]

Worth watching.

Kolb scares me to death to be honest. Nothing about him screams franchise guy to me but there are a lot of people that love him.

I really do wonder what Philly can honestly expect to receive for him.

 

[Goldfield]

I agree but he is better than what we have.

 

[Totally_Red]

Well Kurt is like a lot of us, "Not sure he is worth a team's #1 pick because of what the acquiring team will have to pay him and his inconsistency with the Eagles."

 

[mrbyte]

Worth watching.

Kolb scares me to death to be honest. Nothing about him screams franchise guy to me but there are a lot of people that love him.

I really do wonder what Philly can honestly expect to receive for him.

me too
I really hope we have done our home work on him, for me he's done nothing I would rather have Orton any day

 

[Crazy Canuck]

me too
I really hope we have done our home work on him, for me he's done nothing I would rather have Orton any day

"Orton any day", would include the day he played the Cards last season.

 

[joeshmo]

me too
I really hope we have done our home work on him, for me he's done nothing I would rather have Orton any day

Two different teams giving up on the kid before he has even reached the age of 30 doesnt scare you a little bit with Orton?

 

[Pariah]

"Orton any day", would include the day he played the Cards last season.

Yes, yes it would.

Kolb is capable of those days, too.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Two different teams giving up on the kid before he has even reached the age of 30 doesnt scare you a little bit with Orton?

Nope.

 

[Pariah]

Two different teams giving up on the kid before he has even reached the age of 30 doesnt scare you a little bit with Orton?

Not when you look at the circumstances, no.

I don't think Orton is going to be a "franchise" QB the way Manning or Brady is, but I think he'll be a good starter for the next handful of years. That's worth a 2nd round pick, IMO.

I think Kolb is basically the same player as Orton, so why not go with the guy who's proven what he can do on the field and costs less?

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Not when you look at the circumstances, no.

I don't think Orton is going to be a "franchise" QB the way Manning or Brady is, but I think he'll be a good starter for the next handful of years. That's worth a 2nd round pick, IMO.

I think Kolb is basically the same player as Orton, so why not go with the guy who's proven what he can do on the field and costs less?

I usually agree with you Pariah but i think your proximity to Orton in Denver is viewing this through a different perspective then myself.

Kolb hasn't theoretically hit his ceiling - Orton almost certainly has and I'm not sure his ceiling makes sense for what we want out of this next QB. meaning we dont just need a stopgap. We need a guy that could theoretically carry us. I'm interested too see what Ortn does without McDaniels and I'm inclined to think he'll never get close to those stats again.

What i have been reading by teammates, eagles fans, and others recently has me high on Kolbs potential. I never hear anyone referring to Orton like that. I just don't think he has the leadership and work ethic qualities we need t be successful with Wiz. From all accounts Kolb does.

I guess my question is if cost doesn't come into play - do you still favor Orton to Kolb in that scenario?

 

[kerouac9]

I usually agree with you Pariah but i think your proximity to Orton in Denver is viewing this through a different perspective then myself.

Kolb hasn't theoretically hit his ceiling - Orton almost certainly has and I'm not sure his ceiling makes sense for what we want out of this next QB. meaning we dont just need a stopgap. We need a guy that could theoretically carry us. I'm interested too see what Ortn does without McDaniels and I'm inclined to think he'll never get close to those stats again.

What i have been reading by teammates, eagles fans, and others recently has me high on Kolbs potential. I never hear anyone referring to Orton like that. I just don't think he has the leadership and work ethic qualities we need t be successful with Wiz. From all accounts Kolb does.

I guess my question is if cost doesn't come into play - do you still favor Orton to Kolb in that scenario?

Since when doesn't cost come into play? If cost doesn't come into play, then sign Peyton Manning.

I'm not sure I understand the other bolded section. I understand that asserting this fits your argument in favor of Kolb, but why do we NEED a long-term answer to the quarterback problem right now? Especially in a situation where the solutions available are so unappetizing.

This isn't a team that is a quarterback away from winning the Super Bowl, and with a closing window of opportunity for that Lombardi Trophy. We aren't the 2006 Baltimore Ravens. If you're more in love with Whis than you are with the long-term success of the Arizona Cardinals, maybe that's basically the case, but I don't feel that way.

To me, if you aren't certain that a long-term answer is there (and I understand that you have no questions that Kolb is going to be a franchise quarterback spoken of in the same breath as Brees, Manning, and Brady), then you can just get a stopgap. If you can't get a guy that won't definitely carry us for the next decade--not just "theoretically"--then don't give up a first-round pick plus a high eight-figure contract to do so.

I think that a guy like Orton or Hasselback would make us competitive for the next two years while we figure out what is on the roster that we have. IMO, the QB play was so dreadful last year that it's difficult to get a bead not only on the kind of players we have on offense, but on defense. Is this a 5-11 roster that bad quarterback play made an embarrassing 5-11, or is this an 8-8, maybe 9-7 roster that bad quarterback play spoiled? I'm not sure anyone can say right now.

Kolb didn't seem to elevate the Eagles to be better than they were at any point during his tenure in Philly. You have Mike Lombardi saying that Philly was a seven-win team with Kolb as the starter for 16 games. If that really is the case, then what's the rush to bring a middling starter here? We can build an effective roster for the next Kevin Kolb that comes around, or develop our own.

 

[Mulli]

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MFitzgerald Marcus Fitzgerald @



@RJMulliganJr Hope they get Kolb, but not for DRC!

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Fitz' brother to me....

 

[Stout]

I would take Kolb for a 2nd rounder. Well, a conditional first, because if he makes the pro bowl (the condition) he'll have been worth it. Nothing more!

 

[Pariah]

Kolb hasn't theoretically hit his ceiling - Orton almost certainly has and I'm not sure his ceiling makes sense for what we want out of this next QB.

Here's where the sticking point is for me. I agree that Orton is probably as good as he's going to be (which is pretty good--just a notch below pro-bowl calibre, IMO), and I also agree that Kolb has yet to hit his ceiling. Problem is, I think it's the same ceiling, and since Kolb is largely potential right now I think it makes more sense to go with the proven commodity.

Don't get me wrong. I think Kolb is alright. I'd even be okay with giving up next year's first for him (and maybe even a later round pick, too)--I'd just rather have Orton. I'm not fooling myself into thinking Kolb is going to be the next superstar QB.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Since when doesn't cost come into play? If cost doesn't come into play, then sign Peyton Manning.

I'm not sure I understand the other bolded section. I understand that asserting this fits your argument in favor of Kolb, but why do we NEED a long-term answer to the quarterback problem right now? Especially in a situation where the solutions available are so unappetizing.

This isn't a team that is a quarterback away from winning the Super Bowl, and with a closing window of opportunity for that Lombardi Trophy. We aren't the 2006 Baltimore Ravens. If you're more in love with Whis than you are with the long-term success of the Arizona Cardinals, maybe that's basically the case, but I don't feel that way.

To me, if you aren't certain that a long-term answer is there (and I understand that you have no questions that Kolb is going to be a franchise quarterback spoken of in the same breath as Brees, Manning, and Brady), then you can just get a stopgap. If you can't get a guy that won't definitely carry us for the next decade--not just "theoretically"--then don't give up a first-round pick plus a high eight-figure contract to do so.

I think that a guy like Orton or Hasselback would make us competitive for the next two years while we figure out what is on the roster that we have. IMO, the QB play was so dreadful last year that it's difficult to get a bead not only on the kind of players we have on offense, but on defense. Is this a 5-11 roster that bad quarterback play made an embarrassing 5-11, or is this an 8-8, maybe 9-7 roster that bad quarterback play spoiled? I'm not sure anyone can say right now.

Kolb didn't seem to elevate the Eagles to be better than they were at any point during his tenure in Philly. You have Mike Lombardi saying that Philly was a seven-win team with Kolb as the starter for 16 games. If that really is the case, then what's the rush to bring a middling starter here? We can build an effective roster for the next Kevin Kolb that comes around, or develop our own.

Agree with all of this. I hope our front office isn't as desperate as some of our fans. I would prefer one of the competent stop gaps (Orton, Hasslebeck) who frankly can be just as effective as Kolb and won't cost an arm and a leg.

While Orton and Hasslebeck aren't long term solutions, that affords us the opportunity to wait until a legit franchise qb comes around, be it through the draft/trade/FA, in lieu of the gigantic risk associated with Kolb.

 

[JeffGollin]

Agree with all of this. I hope our front office isn't as desperate as some of our fans. I would prefer one of the competent stop gaps (Orton, Hasslebeck) who frankly can be just as effective as Kolb and won't cost an arm and a leg.

When considering stop-gaps, don't forget some of the promising second-echelon up and comers like Flynn and the kid from Pats (& I still wouldn't mind having Thigpen on our expanded roster as a slash QB).

 

[Pariah]

I still wouldn't mind having Thigpen on our expanded roster as a slash QB.

Inaccurate/ineffective?

 

[joeshmo]

Not when you look at the circumstances, no.

What Circumstances? This is now the 2nd team that is trying everything in their power to keep this guy from starting for them.

These are the circumstances - http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2466525&postcount=59

Orton who is now with his 2nd team that does not want to start for them, and who will also be asking for a large extension since he is just like Kolb also on a one year deal. Then you have Kolb who the NFL media is half and half on who has a 3-4 starting record with a few good games and a few bad ones who will also be looking for a large contract. Both players scare the crap out of me and both will need large extensions.

I am with K9 on this one for the most part, minus putting Orton on a stop gap list since he to is on a one year deal who will also ask for a large long term deal. I am starting to think Hasselbeck for 2 years at 16 mill may be the best option to take.

 

[Totally_Red]

What Circumstances? This is now the 2nd team that is trying everything in their power to keep this guy from starting for them.

These are the circumstances - http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2466525&postcount=59

Orton who is now with his 2nd team that does not want to start for them, and who will also be asking for a large extension since he is just like Kolb also on a one year deal. Then you have Kolb who the NFL media is half and half on who has a 3-4 starting record with a few good games and a few bad ones who will also be looking for a large contract. Both players scare the crap out of me and both will need large extensions.

I am with K9 on this one for the most part, minus putting Orton on a stop gap list since he to is on a one year deal who will also ask for a large long term deal. I am starting to think Hasselbeck for 2 years at 16 mill may be the best option to take.

I agree but with the caveat that Matt probably isn't going to give a team 16 games at this point in his career. But he is a savvy veteran who has been there and done that and would be a positive influence & role model for Skelton and Bartel while one of them hopefully develops over the next two years into the QBOF.

I'd still cough up a second for Kolb, but no more than that because I think there will be a somewhat competitive market for Hasselbeck with TN and possibly Seattle.

 

[kerouac9]

What Circumstances? This is now the 2nd team that is trying everything in their power to keep this guy from starting for them.

These are the circumstances - http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2466525&postcount=59

Orton who is now with his 2nd team that does not want to start for them, and who will also be asking for a large extension since he is just like Kolb also on a one year deal. Then you have Kolb who the NFL media is half and half on who has a 3-4 starting record with a few good games and a few bad ones who will also be looking for a large contract. Both players scare the crap out of me and both will need large extensions.

I am with K9 on this one for the most part, minus putting Orton on a stop gap list since he to is on a one year deal who will also ask for a large long term deal. I am starting to think Hasselbeck for 2 years at 16 mill may be the best option to take.

Is there any reason to think that Orton wants a "large" long-term deal? I'm sure that he wants the security that comes with a contract, but--for the reasons you give--it's not clear that he expects or deserves a contract in the high eight figures that Orton would demand.

If the compensation is a 3rd round pick (and that's what I'd give up--maybe conditional to a 2nd if he passes for over 3500 yards or something), then I have no problem offering him a three-year deal that averages $6 million and guaranteeing the first two years.

On the other hand, the Cards have shown that they have little regard for mid-round picks, so if you trade a 3rd for Orton and get Orton-like performance from him and decide he's not your cup of tea and you'd rather have nothing than Orton, letting him leave after only one season is an acceptable outcome.

 

[joeshmo]

If the compensation is a 3rd round pick (and that's what I'd give up--maybe conditional to a 2nd if he passes for over 3500 yards or something), then I have no problem offering him a three-year deal that averages $6 million and guaranteeing the first two years.

He would be coming in here as the unquestioned starter and he is under the age of 30. He without a doubt will hold out for a deal longer then 3 years at an average of 6 mill. No agent in his right mind would let his 28 year old starting QB go for that kind of cash IMO.

 

[kerouac9]

He would be coming in here as the unquestioned starter and he is under the age of 30. He without a doubt will hold out for a deal longer then 3 years at an average of 6 mill. No agent in his right mind would let his 28 year old starting QB go for that kind of cash IMO.

As I said, then he can walk. If the Cards aren't going to value the picks they make in the second and third rounds long enough to keep them on the roster for a year or less, then at least they can get a year of production out of their party boy quarterback, which is more than they'd gotten out of plenty of draft picks.

You can always let him head to the cold waters of free agency and bring him back if he doesn't find it to his liking. He can ask Tavaris Jackson how free agency went in the 2011 offseason.

EDIT: He signed a one-year, $11 million extension with the Broncos last year. Some of that had to do with labor uncertainty (he would have been an RFA this year too otherwise). It's not like he's running around demanding a starting job.

 

[Pariah]

What Circumstances?

The circumstances can really be summed up in one word: McDaniels.

The Bears shipped Orton to Denver because McDaniels screwed the pooch with Cutler and the Bears saw an opportunity to get what was supposed to be the next great gunslinging QB.

Then, despite Orton playing very well, McDaniels pulls a rabbit out of his hat and drafts Tebow. Now the Broncos organization is hamstrung. You know how much of an investment a first round pick is--especially a first round QB pick. They almost have to see what they have in that kid, leaving a logjam an available asset in Orton at the position.

Again, I'm by no means saying Orton is a guy that can carry a team on his back like the greats do, but I do think he's largely been a victim of circumstance thus far in his career.

 

[Mitch]

The circumstances can really be summed up in one word: McDaniels.

The Bears shipped Orton to Denver because McDaniels screwed the pooch with Cutler and the Bears saw an opportunity to get what was supposed to be the next great gunslinging QB.

Then, despite Orton playing very well, Orton pulls a rabbit out of his hat and drafts Tebow. Now the Broncos organization is hamstrung. You know how much of an investment a first round pick is--especially a first round QB pick. They almost have to see what they have in that kid, leaving a logjam an available asset in Orton at the position.

Again, I'm by no means saying Orton is a guy that can carry a team on his back like the greats do, but I do think he's largely been a victim of circumstance thus far in his career.

Good points, Pariah.

You can't blame the Bears for wanting Cutler.

And, as you say, McDaniels became obsessed with Tebow.

What Orton isn't---he isn't flashy.

But he's been reasonably productive and efficient for two teams---

32-30 record.

12,774 yards @ 58.1% & 71-49 TD/int.

Turned in three winning seasons as a starter: 10-5, 9-6, 8-7...on teams that really weren't that great, either.