Welcome Ty Jerome

[elindholm]

I don't doubt that. I do doubt that you have as good of an eye for talent as they do though.

Oh, for sure. I don't follow college basketball or make any attempt to evaluate draft prospects. I can see basic things, like Lonzo Ball's inability to shoot or Tatum's balance and smoothness.

Which means it is much easier for them to make a much more informed decision.

Yes, and it should also make it easier for them to make good decisions. Unfortunately they often don't. I take no issue with the drafting of Johnson; it's a guessing game once you get past the first few picks and their guess is as good as mine. (With a player like Len or Bender, who was obviously incompetent from the beginning, you have to wonder what bias was clouding their judgment.)

The issue instead is with failing to recognize how to get good value of their assets once they decide to sell them. Warren was given away for free, and surely he is a better player than that. If that was the best offer on the table at the moment, what was the rush? What move did they have to make right away that required writing off Warren for nothing? Why not wait another few months, give other teams a chance to strike out on free agency, and see what the market is for Warren then?

As another example, even if Johnson turns out to be a solid contributor, drafting him at #11 was obviously a blunder. You always want to acquire players at the lowest price you can get away with. Either trade down right away, or instead draft a player that you know (because you have done some research) that teams below you are also interested in, and work out the trade later in the draft. It's a fairly easy exercise to look at other teams' assets, see what their needs are, and envision possible trades that will help both sides. Of course you won't always get an agreement, so that's why you devise many such scenarios and count on one of them to pay off. Having the confidence to do that requires having invested the time to develop the skill of being able to see other teams' rosters from their own perspective.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Oh, for sure. I don't follow college basketball or make any attempt to evaluate draft prospects. I can see basic things, like Lonzo



Yes, and it should also make it easier for them to make good decisions. Unfortunately they often don't. I take no issue with the drafting of Johnson; it's a guessing game once you get past the first few picks and their guess is as good as mine. (With a player like Len or Bender, who was obviously incompetent from the beginning, you have to wonder what bias was clouding their judgment.)

The issue instead is with failing to recognize how to get good value of their assets once they decide to sell them. Warren was given away for free, and surely he is a better player than that. If that was the best offer on the table at the moment, what was the rush? What move did they have to make right away that required writing off Warren for nothing? Why not wait another few months, give other teams a chance to strike out on free agency, and see what the market is for Warren then?

As another example, even if Johnson turns out to be a solid contributor, drafting him at #11 was obviously a blunder. You always want to acquire players at the lowest price you can get away with. Either trade down right away, or instead draft a player that you know (because you have done some research) that teams below you are also interested in, and work out the trade later in the draft. It's a fairly easy exercise to look at other teams' assets, see what their needs are, and envision possible trades that will help both sides. Of course you won't always get an agreement, so that's why you devise many such scenarios and count on one of them to pay off. Having the confidence to do that requires having invested the time to develop the skill of being able to see other teams' rosters from their own perspective.

That is because of a myriad of factors that you just can't know until the player actually gets into the league. Sometimes guys that are known for working hard start to relax once they get paid, guys make terrible off court decisions, injuries happen, some guys freeze under the high pressure of the NBA spotlight, some guys mentally collapse when faced with the bigger and better competition that the NBA has to offer and a big one is guys getting by on shear physical talent in college only to realize that it isn't enough in the NBA.

It can be nearly impossible to detect a lot of those things and that is why pretty much every team gets some picks right and some wrong. The thing I did like about this draft is that it targeted players that simply understand how to play the game. They didn't go after guys that are raw in their understanding of the game, but have great upside. The reason why that is a plus is because this team already has a young nucleus, but not very many solid players around them and these two guys are likely to at least be solid role players at this level. It's not sexy, but it was safe and I think it is better for our current situation.

 

[Mainstreet]

I thought labrum were in the shoulders?

I think it can be in the shoulder or hip after a quick search but I have no medical expertise.

 

[Phrazbit]

I thought labrum were in the shoulders?

You have labrums in both. Your shoulder and hips are similar joints.

 

[elindholm]

You have labrums in both. Your shoulder and hips are similar joints.

Isn't the plural "labria"? Or maybe I'm thinking of something else.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Oh, for sure. I don't follow college basketball or make any attempt to evaluate draft prospects. I can see basic things, like Lonzo Ball's inability to shoot or Tatum's balance and smoothness.



Yes, and it should also make it easier for them to make good decisions. Unfortunately they often don't. I take no issue with the drafting of Johnson; it's a guessing game once you get past the first few picks and their guess is as good as mine. (With a player like Len or Bender, who was obviously incompetent from the beginning, you have to wonder what bias was clouding their judgment.)

The issue instead is with failing to recognize how to get good value of their assets once they decide to sell them. Warren was given away for free, and surely he is a better player than that. If that was the best offer on the table at the moment, what was the rush? What move did they have to make right away that required writing off Warren for nothing? Why not wait another few months, give other teams a chance to strike out on free agency, and see what the market is for Warren then?

As another example, even if Johnson turns out to be a solid contributor, drafting him at #11 was obviously a blunder. You always want to acquire players at the lowest price you can get away with. Either trade down right away, or instead draft a player that you know (because you have done some research) that teams below you are also interested in, and work out the trade later in the draft. It's a fairly easy exercise to look at other teams' assets, see what their needs are, and envision possible trades that will help both sides. Of course you won't always get an agreement, so that's why you devise many such scenarios and count on one of them to pay off. Having the confidence to do that requires having invested the time to develop the skill of being able to see other teams' rosters from their own perspective.

If he was really the player they wanted, they traded down where they could and then took him. Sometimes you lose out on your guy by trying to get too cute. You also never know for sure exactly how others value your player. We tend to take mocks as gospel, but they are only guesses.

I really have no idea about how Cam will turn out and I really have no idea what kind of talent evaluator James Jones is yet. I have been lukewarm on him, but it is way too early to call him an idiot. Even then, GM’s can make mistakes. Masai is eceryone’s hero right now but a few years ago he drafted an unknown South American teenage bust in the first round.

 

[overseascardfan]

Too bad that outside of De"Andre Ayton, our frontcourt is historically awful...

I would think the money saved from Warren trade

Too bad that outside of De"Andre Ayton, our frontcourt is historically awful...

I agree. Hoping for Randle with the money they saved on Warren deal especially if we are pursuing PG's like Joseph on the cheap. Would have loved if PHX took Washington at #11 but they prefer wings who can actually shoot.

 

[Mainstreet]

If he was really the player they wanted, they traded down where they could and then took him. Sometimes you lose out on your guy by trying to get too cute. You also never know for sure exactly how others value your player. We tend to take mocks as gospel, but they are only guesses.

I really have no idea about how Cam will turn out and I really have no idea what kind of talent evaluator James Jones is yet. I have been lukewarm on him, but it is way too early to call him an idiot. Even then, GM’s can make mistakes. Masai is eceryone’s hero right now but a few years ago he drafted an unknown South American teenage bust in the first round.

I kept waiting for the Suns to trade down again because this was such a deep draft and Cam would have probably been there later. Of course we do not know if other teams had interest in him that early as well. Kabengele, a player that both of use liked, went #27.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I would think the money saved from Warren trade

I agree. Hoping for Randle with the money they saved on Warren deal especially if we are pursuing PG's like Joseph on the cheap. Would have loved if PHX took Washington at #11 but they prefer wings who can actually shoot.

I am not hoping for Randle. I am hoping for a starting pg. To me Saric is fine starting next to Ayton at PF. You need some role playing starters who do not have to score 20 a game to be effective. Randle would make Ayton worse.

 

[Mainstreet]

At least I got one of my later targets in Ty Jerome. He makes me think of Jeff Hornacek a bit.

 

[elindholm]

If he was really the player they wanted, they traded down where they could and then took him. Sometimes you lose out on your guy by trying to get too cute.

True, but we aren't talking about a future All-Star in any case. They should have had a viable backup plan if they cuted themselves out of Johnson; when you're in that area of the draft, there can't be that big a difference between your top two choices. So you assess the risk of losing your player, then figure out how much insurance overhead you're willing to pay in order to eliminate that risk. The Suns' calculation for Johnson was faulty, regardless of whether he ends up being a solid contributor.

 

[elindholm]

I am not hoping for Randle. I am hoping for a starting pg. To me Saric is fine starting next to Ayton at PF.

I agree that Saric is a pretty good fit with Ayton. I was high on Randle before the Suns got Ayton. Now that they have Ayton, they could still use a true PF (instead of this "stretch-4" nonsense), but not at Randle's price point.

 

[1Sun]

I agree that Saric is a pretty good fit with Ayton. I was high on Randle before the Suns got Ayton. Now that they have Ayton, they could still use a true PF (instead of this "stretch-4" nonsense), but not at Randle's price point.

Saric is an incredibly poor rebounder. They need someone capable of grabbing boards to opponents don't just converge on Ayton.

 

[elindholm]

Saric is an incredibly poor rebounder.

His career average is 8.3 per 36. How is that "incredibly poor"? I'm not even sure it's below average for a PF. I just looked up Horford as a random comparison and he's at 9.2.

 

[overseascardfan]

I am not hoping for Randle. I am hoping for a starting pg. To me Saric is fine starting next to Ayton at PF. You need some role playing starters who do not have to score 20 a game to be effective. Randle would make Ayton worse.

The problem is what PG are you hoping for? I mean Russell would be nice but I don't think he ends up here. Kemba and Kyrie won't be coming either. I don't see TOR trading Van Vleet. The only real options at this point are Joseph and maybe Derrick Rose and neither should be expensive. Instead of Saric, PHX should have looked at Tre Jones but they didn't. PHX should have drafted Washington instead of Johnson as our PFOTF but as it stands we need a PF who can score and rebound, Randle's three point shot has improved so he's not strictly just a post player at this point.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I would think the money saved from Warren trade

I agree. Hoping for Randle with the money they saved on Warren deal especially if we are pursuing PG's like Joseph on the cheap. Would have loved if PHX took Washington at #11 but they prefer wings who can actually shoot.

Randle is no longer an option with acquisition of saric.

 

[SirStefan32]

Randle is no longer an option with acquisition of saric.

Well, Saric is there for only one season. I haven't thought this through, but I am not sure I'd pass on multi-year deal with Randle because we have Saric for one season.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Well, Saric is there for only one season. I haven't thought this through, but I am not sure I'd pass on multi-year deal with Randle because we have Saric for one season.

I would. I talked myself into wanting randle bc we had to get someone. But ultimately not enamored with pairing him with Ayton. Even after next season I think saric will be cheaper and better fit with 3 pt shooting and reuniting with Monty.

 

[Mainstreet]

I'm not totally sure why Saric is viewed as a rental other than he will become a RFA next season.

If the Suns like him and everything goes well, they may decide to keep him.

 

[SirStefan32]

I would. I talked myself into wanting randle bc we had to get someone. But ultimately not enamored with pairing him with Ayton. Even after next season I think saric will be cheaper and better fit with 3 pt shooting and reuniting with Monty.

Fair enough. I suppose an ideal pairing would be Ayton and someone who can defend, block shots, and shoot. Neither Saric nor Randle are defenders or shot-blockers, and Saric is a better shooter.

 

[SirStefan32]

I'm not totally sure why Saric is viewed as a rental other than he will become a RFA next season.

If the Suns like him and everything goes well, they may decide to keep him.

I am open to Saric being the power forward of the future. My concern is that our two stars are not defenders, so theoretically, 1, 3, and 4 should be defensive stoppers. They are fine at 3, but I am really worried about 1 and 4 starters not being good defenders. That's part of the reason I want Jrue Holiday here instead of Russell, in an ideal scenario, of course. Saric is not a terrible defender, but he is not great either, and he is definitely not a shot-blocker.

EDIT: I suppose it depends on Ayton. If he can turn into a defensive force in the paint, then you can afford to have a 4 that doesn't block shots. I am not optimistic about Ayton becoming a rim-protector though.

 

[1Sun]

I am open to Saric being the power forward of the future. My concern is that our two stars are not defenders, so theoretically, 1, 3, and 4 should be defensive stoppers. They are fine at 3, but I am really worried about 1 and 4 starters not being good defenders. That's part of the reason I want Jrue Holiday here instead of Russell, in an ideal scenario, of course. Saric is not a terrible defender, but he is not great either, and he is definitely not a shot-blocker.

EDIT: I suppose it depends on Ayton. If he can turn into a defensive force in the paint, then you can afford to have a 4 that doesn't block shots. I am not optimistic about Ayton becoming a rim-protector though.

Look at the numbers and the tape. Saric is one of the worst defensive power forwards in the league, if not THE worst.

 

[Mainstreet]

I am open to Saric being the power forward of the future. My concern is that our two stars are not defenders, so theoretically, 1, 3, and 4 should be defensive stoppers. They are fine at 3, but I am really worried about 1 and 4 starters not being good defenders. That's part of the reason I want Jrue Holiday here instead of Russell, in an ideal scenario, of course. Saric is not a terrible defender, but he is not great either, and he is definitely not a shot-blocker.

EDIT: I suppose it depends on Ayton. If he can turn into a defensive force in the paint, then you can afford to have a 4 that doesn't block shots. I am not optimistic about Ayton becoming a rim-protector though.

I'm hoping Saric returns to the form he displayed with the 76ers. Admittedly I have not watched him much with the Wolves. I agree with your concept of 1, 3 and 4 should be defensive players. I'm not sure what type of team defender Saric happens to be.

 

[SirStefan32]

I'm hoping Saric returns to the form he displayed with the 76ers. Admittedly I have not watched him much with the Wolves. I agree with your concept of 1, 3 and 4 should be defensive players. I'm not sure what type of team defender Saric happens to be.

He is a lot tougher than people think. He just doesn't have the speed or length to be more than an average defender. If Ayton improves a bit, they can probably get away with Saric at 4, especially if they can field an insane defensive second unit. There were times last season when Melton, Jackson, Bridges, Oubre, and Holmes were incredible to watch on defense.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Fair enough. I suppose an ideal pairing would be Ayton and someone who can defend, block shots, and shoot. Neither Saric nor Randle are defenders or shot-blockers, and Saric is a better shooter.

Exactly. Saric isn’t perfect pairing, but he’s:

A) a legit PF, so more than we had last year; and
B) while admittedly not perfect (as you aptly described), he is a good 3 pt shooter (so better fit than randle), and will likely be cheaper even if we resign him next offseason.